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Toyota Tundra vs. Chevrolet Silverado

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Good find geo9 ;)

    Rocky
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Spyder,
    You speak as though Toyota lives in this fairytale land where they can do no wrong and everything is and always will be "Rosy". You don't think they will/do have their share of problems? Yeah, The big 3 have issues to take care of, and I am confident they will. How? I don't know, I am not there, but I am confident they will do whatever it takes to fix whatever is "broken". They already are taking steps in the right direction. They are both true American companies and have the strength of our economy to back them up. Even Dodge will survive in some form, again, not sure how drastic the changes over there will be, but they will restructure themselves somehow and survive, mark my words.
    Toyota can and probably will survive and thrive in America as well, but to say they will pass by GM and Ford as they crumble is just plain arrogant and ignorant. Remember, GM and Ford have strong loyalties that date back several decades, these will not be easily broken. However, Toyota's loyalties in America (especially in the truck segment) are still very young and fragile. If these Tundra's start to show reliability issues or any other quality issues, it will lose the little bit of backing by the American people a heck of a lot quicker then GM or Ford. You (and Toyota) had better hope these trucks are as good (if not better) than you "anti-American" people think/say they are. And please stop with the "Toyota is just as American as the big 3 are" crapola. yes, it is a global economy and GM and Ford both have ties to foreign cars companies, that is not the point. GM, Ford, Chrysler (among a few others) are American and Honda, Toyota, Kia, BMW..etc, etc, are all still "foreign" cars. period.

    2 questions for you..

    1. Do you own or do you even plan to buy a Toyota Tundra or any pickup?
    2. Have you driven any of the 2007's yet? (GM or Tundra specifically?)

    Oh, and another thing...If you think Toyota can ramp up production of the 1/2 ton segment, enter the HD segment, add diesels, etc etc, without suffering "growing pains" and having quality or other issues? You are dreaming.
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    Geez, I can't believe some of the posts recently. Anybody ever wonder why in icy conditions, the vehicles you see in the ditch the most are all these small to medium size SUVs? It is because people have this false sense of security that AWD and 4-wheel drive vehicles are safer on ice. In fact it is the exact opposite!! I'll take a front-wheel drive or rear-wheel drive vehicle over AWD in those conditions any day.
    Its just plain physics people... growing up in central Canada means that you experience 6 months of cold winters with a few months of icy roads. When you loose traction it is because the driving wheels are spinning on a slippery surface. The wheels that aren't driving are actually stablizing the vehicle because there is some friction there to help. Engage AWD and 4-wheel drive vehicles into this scenario and you can see how easy it is for people to end up in a ditch off an inter-state hwy.
    The only good thing about AWD and 4-wheel drive systems are better handling and traction in conditions without ice and for getting through a lot of snow or mud or when trailblazing. For "slippery" conditions, its virtually suicide to have it; especially if you're falsely convinced of its abilities. Even with all of the technologies greatly helping ensure that wheels don't all spin, etc. at speeds beyond 30mph, it only takes a split second to completely loose control over an AWD/4WD vehicle.
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    OnStar is a great thing to have on any vehicle, I certainly agree, but it has a few minor problems.
    The first is that it is positioned in easily one of the most break-able parts of the vehicle. Put it on the console, or on the steering wheel. Putting it on the top console on the roof by the front windshield almost guarantees that it won't work in a roll-over (a situation where you would definitely need it).
    Secondly, and I can't believe GM was advertising this for so long, people use OnStar to unlock their vehicles when the keys were in the ignition and the vehicle is running! Sorry folks, but my old 1988 Celica wouldn't let me do that, much less any of the vehicles I've had since (Dodge included). That means that they're using the service to help deflect some of the design issues with the vehicle rather than solving those issues.
    Whereas a cell phone will work in virtually any condition, a disruption to the electrical system could prevent OnStar from working (though one could argue that a cell phone needs to be charged).
    Lastly, the rates keep going up on the service. It started out free for the 1st year and $12.95 a month after that. Now, there are tiered levels of service that start at $16.95 and only the first 3 months are free.
    Having said that, this is definitely a great feature to have, and it is a pity that other companies don't have this or a similar service.
    I wouldn't call this a quality issue though. It is a great feature to have and certainly there are features that the Tundra has that the Silverado doesn't as well.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    belias,

    I to some degree disagree with you as I'd rather have a AWD car or long/wide wheel based Full-Size SUV on ice over a RWD/FWD car. (I'll explain later) The midsize SUV's end up in the ditch because their wheel bases are way to short. Ever notice why a Jeep Wrangler is great in Snow and Mud but stinks in slippery conditions ? Hell they stink in rain and are just to tipsy.

    I agree many drivers get a false security with 4WD but a Wide Wheel Base AWD/4WD Car/SUV/Truck is damn hard to beat.

    FWD/RWD on real icy conditions tend to have their butts slide out because they are so nose heavy and once you lose a FWD car it's very hard to recover it and most are headed for the ditch. RWD sucks because unless your car has some weight it will spin it tail back n' forth but if you lose it on ice it is the easiest to recover and thus is why I've always been told if I was driving a 4WD Truck or SUV that has 2WD option to engage the 2WD mode if I was slipping out of control to recover from a slide.

    Rocky
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    Yes, I agree a long wheel-base is advantageous! I should put the post in a more concentrated context: that is to say that (as per some previous posts), having AWD/4WD is not going to help you encountering black-ice on a freeway. At those speeds, it is better to have virtually any 2WD vehicle.
    As you stated, if you do loose control on a front-wheel drive vehicle or if you are trying to start out in icy conditions on a rear-wheel drive vehicle, then obviously AWD/4WD is better. Though, again, you'll loose control a lot faster with an AWD/4WD vehicle at faster speeds than a front-wheel drive vehicle. But that's my point. AWD/4WD isn't meant for high-speed traction control - it is meant for getting out of bad situations or going through tough terrain.
    I think we're pretty much in agreement on those things; wow, how did that happen? :D
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Well, as a driver in Minnesota for the past 24 yrs (I am 40), I have driven RWD cars, FWD cars and 4WD trucks in all kinds of winter driving conditions. Here is my opinion:
    1. 4WD and AWD is by far superior to anything else as long as you do not get overconfident or a false sense of security. Any vehicle requires extra care/caution in slippery conditions. But an AWD or 4WD vehicle will maintain control better in snow and ice. IF you know your vehicle and drive within it's own limits (based on size, weight, etc).
    2. FWD is almost as good. My wife has been driving FWD cars now since 1993 and they too work pretty well in our MN winters. Again, IF, you drive within it's limitations, which of course means SLOWING down in winter driving conditions.
    3. RWD cars are absolutely worthless in snow and ice, even with traction control. Oh sure, traction control does help over plain RWD and adding weight over the wheels helps with traction when starting on ice, but it doesn't help much at all (if any) while at speed on ice.

    My guess is that most SUV's that end up in the ditch is due to overconfidence of inexperienced drivers.

    Rocky,
    I've always been told if I was driving a 4WD Truck or SUV that has 2WD option to engage the 2WD mode if I was slipping out of control to recover from a slide.

    Is this really realistic since this happens so quickly? Also, I question why this would help?

    As far as "physics" go, there is a finite amount of friction between the tires and the road, which is GREATLY decreased in slippery conditions. This friction is needed for steering, maintaining grip (traction), accelerating and braking. That is why if you do start to slide, the first thing you need to do is let off the brakes (unless you have ABS), this allows you to use whatever friction you do have to maintain control of the vehicle. Of course each situation is different, but tires that aren't turning (sliding during lockup) eliminate any steering control. This is also why they teach you to slow down BEFORE entering a turn and accelerate coming out of a turn. This spreads out the friction requirements and maximizes steering control through the turn.
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Belias,
    I have a 2000 GMC Sierra, and I CANNOT lock my keys into the car while they are in the ignition. If the keys are in the ignition, the driver's side door will not remain locked when you close the door. I am assuming the newer trucks since then also share this feature. However, I can lock my doors with the key or remote key while the engine is running for security while warming up, even though this is illegal in MN, regardless of whether the door is locked or not. Unless you have remote start, because the car/truck cannot be operated until you put the key in. So, not sure what ads you are referring to, but rest assured, GM does have this anti-lockout feature. My wife's 2004 Impala also has this feature.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Though, again, you'll loose control a lot faster with an AWD/4WD vehicle at faster speeds than a front-wheel drive vehicle.

    Well that depends on the wheel base again. I'd rather Drive a 07' Volvo S80 V8 AWD at 85 mph on ice than lets say a FWD Honda CRV at 75 mph on ice. With the modern stability control systems, traction controls, Safety ABS system like EBD, etc nothing IMHO beats AWD/4WD for all weather safety and I've driven both (FWD/4wd/AWD) my whole life. My best FWD car for winter weather was my 92' Bonneville SSEi and would blow by 4WD trucks because it was wide and long. I however could do the same thing in my family's Z-71's ;)

    Rocky
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    having AWD/4WD is not going to help you encountering black-ice on a freeway. At those speeds, it is better to have virtually any 2WD vehicle.

    When comparing 4WD/AWD to RWD, I disagree completely on this one, based on experience.

    Though, again, you'll loose control a lot faster with an AWD/4WD vehicle at faster speeds than a front-wheel drive vehicle.

    This I will agree with you on.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Good post and your and mine results are alike as I grew up in Michigan. ;)

    Is this really realistic since this happens so quickly? Also, I question why this would help?

    My 2nd cousin grew up working on cars, racing them professionally, and yes has been to advanced defensive driving courses and when I lost my grandmothers 97' GMC Jimmy in 4WD Hi because a snowbank on wheel ran me off the road because he couldn't see and I went up to the edge of the woods to avoid him crashing into me and thus when I came back onto the road I hit a patch of ice and spun out 360 degrees a few times before hitting the other side of the roads edge of the woods and landed softly on my side in a snow bank. My Cousin (same one) who owned a wrecker service had his shop 20 miles away and told me next time if I can remember in the heat of the action engage 2wd while spinning out of control in 4WD hi. I luckily have never had that happen to me again but whenever I'm driving a 4WD vehicle in bad weather his words stick into the back of my mind. BTW- this happened on my way to Prom and was late to pick up my date. She was upset at first but after I told her what happened she forgave me . :blush:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    This I will agree with you on.

    LOL, I disagree with you both based on experience :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    In Winter Weather. I assume it will do fine as it is long and fairly wide.

    Rocky
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Well, since you were going to Prom, obviously you were a teen driver (let's hope anyway..haha). I am guessing since you were a fairly inexperienced driver in a 4WD vehicle, overconfidence was the major contributor to this accident. I still question the reality of switching to 2WD mode during a spinout. Not even sure the vehicle would have time to react that quickly. In theory, it may have some merit, but that's it.
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Rocky,
    While cruising at 40mph+ on snow/ice, I would rather have a FWD than a 4WD, but AWD is probably better than both.
    Belias does have a point about not wanting all wheels to start spinning simultaneously. But with AWD, there usually is 4 wheel traction control to eliminate this happening.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well, since you were going to Prom, obviously you were a teen driver (let's hope anyway..haha). I am guessing since you were a fairly inexperienced driver in a 4WD vehicle, overconfidence was the major contributor to this accident.

    Well I was a senior 18 years so I had what 3 years of winter driving under my belt by then. It wasn't Prom but was "Swirl" where the women asks the guys out. Prom is in the spring. You obviously didn't understand my above post. A Snow bank with 4 wheels and I mean it looked like a snow bank because the driver was to damn lazy to brush off the snow of his big old 1970's boat. I told the Police Officer working the scene what happened and he didn't write me a ticket as he was able to see what happened by my tread marks in the woods. This car had so much snow flying into his windshield and was driving so fast he couldn't see me. I assume based on the town I was driving to the driver was a hillbilly from the south. I was going probaly 35-40 mph and it was on a gravel road with snow and ice in 4 Hi. If the driver wouldn't of ran me off the road heading straight for me I wouldn't of had to make a last second effort to save the Jimmy and me. The edge of the Woods was packed full of snow and yes it was like plowing through a soft snow bank. The idiot passing me had to be three sheets to the wind drunk because he kept on going or was afraid to stop ? I often wonder if he even saw me ? I gave the police officer a description of the car
    (what little I could see of it) but it looked like a mid-late 70's Buick or Cadillac. It was a big ol boat. So yes I might not of been experienced as some drivers but I was driving with family members since I was 13 years old on gravel roads in summer and winter and feel even at that age I had more experience under my belt than most of the U.S. Population driving in winter weather. ;)

    Rocky
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    RWD vehicles are going to be bad in slippery conditions no matter what. But, in some circumstances, they are actually quite good -- it just depends on how the vehicle is weighted and the situation. No question thought that for most situations it is last among the 3 options available. The situation that I mentioned in terms of it doing better than AWD/4WD is at speed hitting black ice. The reason being that even though you will most likely loose control of the vehicle; it doesn't happen as quickly as in a AWD/4WD. I've been in an AWD/4WD vehicle when it has gone into the ditch (twice -- I was the passenger both times). I was on the side looking at little trees bent up against my window from the weight of the vehicle (luckily the glass didn't break). Anyhow, I've lost control on ice in my Toyota, Pontiac, and Dodge -- two of the FWD, and one RWD. In all three vehicles, I never once lost control of the vehicle to such an extent that I didn't have time to react and regain control. Not so in the AWD/4WD vehicles. When you loose control, it is super-fast and absolutely dangerous. I'm amazed more people don't die from those accidents. Reaction time is just hardly there if at all (and I'm talking 35mph+ speeds -- not super-fast either).
    However, like jreagan said, wheelbase does matter, and also the weight ratio (front-to-back) matters a great deal as well.
    For most trucks, I don't think this is going to be an issue either way. But I do think that the majority of situations that AWD/4WD will help you in is from slow starts, to trailblazing, to getting through thick snow and dirt.
    The reality is that few vehicles, if any, are as good at doing those things as they are at going over ice.
    The Tundra and Silverado are pretty large, heavy, big vehicles by any standard. The systems in place to help you with ice for these vehicles have more to do with breaking and maintaining the proper direction when hitting slippery conditions.
    The only caveat I would say that has differed more recently is that newer tire technology and more advanced implementations of AWD/4WD vehicles have made it better. But, there are also plenty of advancements for front-wheel drive and rear-wheel drive vehicles as well.
    As jreagan said, the more likely culprit is that people that get AWD/4WD vehicles are overly-confident and get themselves into situations that can cause serious accidents. People should understand first what the priorities are for vehicles that have that option. Superior control on ice is a pipe dream for most vehicles -- understanding that buying it as a preference in say the Silverado or Tundra is more suitable for other activities than maintaining control on ice.
    That said, we're all free to buy for whatever reasons -- I would just hate to see somebody buy for that particular reason, then have an accident because their expectations were set too high. Take it easy on ice no matter what you have...
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Agree with all your post except you wanting FWD cruising over 40+ mph. Give me AWD/4WD over any of em' ;) This is why Mitsubishi EVO-X's, Subuaru's and Audi's dominate Winter Racing. You do not see FWDers do you ? :P

    Rocky
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    You're right, sorry, my bad. I didn't understand the "snowbank" analogy.
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    True, but they are not trucks with very little weight over the rear (primary) wheels. Also, they are AWD, not 4WD. I agreed AWD is the best. There is a huge difference between AWD and 4WD, especially prior to the new 4WD's having stabilitrak.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    belias,

    Good post. I think it has more to do with the vehicle's capability's than if it's FWD/AWD/4WD ;) I overall prefer a good AWD system like Mitsubishi's (S-AWC) which is probably the best AWD system in the world. This technology should be available on these 2 trucks we are talking about now. Active Yaw Control is quite new but could save lives in safety as well as improve dry weather performance.

    Acura has a pretty Spiffy AWD system called SH-AWD and I always wondered why Honda, hasn't yet put this system on the Ridgeline, where it would be quite useful. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    It's okay. Just wanted to clear things up. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well AWD and 4WD technology is getting closer in terms of conventional technology. However the new AWD systems liked I talked about from Mitsubishi and Acura are simply the best on the market. Of Course Audi and Mercedes both have good AWD systems as well. I've also heard good things about BMW's and Volvo's also but they don't match the technology of S-AWC which will debut on the Mitsubishi EVO-X this fall ;)

    Rocky
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    Yes, that would be great if the new trucks had these technologies. I wonder if the weight/payload/towing capabilities of the truck make it particularly difficult or expensive to implement that technology?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    So have you guys heard anything new about the new F-150 and Dodge Ram coming out ?????

    Is the F-150 going to get the new "Hurricane" Engine Series ?

    Any speculation of how much power the 09' Ram will have ?

    The F-150 is coming out this fall still right ?

    It will be most interesting to see how the new Tundra and Silverado will fair against these new competitors ?

    Rocky
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    My point exactly, however, I think these high-tech AWD systems are aways off from being used in Trucks due to the "Ruggedness" factor required in trucks for towing, hauling, etc. But you're right, 4WD systems today that use Stabilitrak (and other similar) systems are far better than the old simple 4WD systems.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    That is a question I don't have a answer for. :(
    That would probably need to be asked to the engineers of these high-tech systems.

    The biggest vehicle the SH-AWD is on now is the MDX, and the reviews all say it helps the handling out greatly even on snow and ice I read in one review.

    Rocky
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    I call it "Automotive Leapfrog".
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Yeah, it would be interesting to know if they could handle the brutal Truck requirements. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    LOL.....That is a good way of puting it. :)

    Rocky
This discussion has been closed.