How to find a quality salesperson

tamaraster

This is just speculative, but it could be that buyers trust someone of their own race/gender more, and thus don't push as hard as they would against someone of a different type.

I remember a study a few years ago (no cite, sorry) that found set up people in a negotiation. The biggest factor in how well a person did in the negotiation was simply their starting offer (which was given to them by the researchers).

bigdveedubgirl

I have been monitoring this discussion closely and really this can be a very touchy subject.

I have sold cars in So. Cal and the area I was in was the biggest metlting pot of cultures. I know that the negotiating process was different for different cultures but the bottom line is the same, everyone wants a good deal, a low price, help with financing ect ect.

I do agree that I we might get better deals from our ethnic opposite?(is that correct?) I am a hispanic, italian, european mix, but in Texas, I just look Hispanic. I walked on to a lot of a Ford store and many salespeople were standing outside and while I browsed, but ultimately it was the hispanic sales person who ran the bi-lingual department came out to help me and greeted me with an "Hola! Como Estas?" I don't speak spanish, and I am not a particular fan of ethnicity being the common ground in negotiations. If I got a bad deal on a car I would never even dream of it being based on my color, It would be based on me not doing enough research.

isellhondas

No comment

bobst

Nah, people stopped worrying about appearing prejudiced in the 70's.

jeffyscott

What world do you live in?

mackabee

You forgot step #10 stick.

10. Find one that can spell, use punctuation correctly, and does not mangle the English language.

Mackabee

mackabee

I like Paul Cummings myself. Tom Hopkins ain't too shabby either.

Mackabee

mackabee

I'm Hispanic of Italian descent so I make offers to everyone they can't refuse...

Mackabee aka El Padrino

biancar

I'm of Italian descent with a tiny bit of Spanish tossed in, so we're related!

rroyce10

... ** He has done research in law and economics. In a nutshell, --- >>> he found that white women get the best deal from African-American men; African-American women got the best deal from white men; and both white men and African-American men got the best deal from white female salespeople ....**
========================



I hope the "author" didn't get paid for this article ...l..o..l.....



Terry.

biancar

Have you read it or are you just tossing around insults for the heck of it?

Have you ever worked up the statistics for who gets the best deal at your dealership? I don't mean your opinion, interesting as that may be. I mean actual numbers.

rroyce10

.... The only thing insulting here is the article ~ and obviously the "author" is very poorly misinformed ...

I've been doing this for going on 23 years ... I speak with dealers from LA to Boston on a daily basis .. I would guess their "opinions" would count for a little more than some "writer" punching keys for a paycheck .l.o.l... sorry, but you're singing to the choir here.



Terry :sick:

biancar

...means the same thing as preaching to the believers. I think you've misspoken there, as clearly you're not a believer in Ayer's theory.

's ok, I won't try to confuse you with facts if your mind is made up.

jipster

"The only thing insulting here is the article and obviously the "author is very poorly misinformed..."

" I would guess their "opinions" would count for a little more than some "writer" punching keys for a paycheck"

hmmm...Ian Ayres...a lawyer and economist, a professor at Yale School of Law...editor of the Journal of Law, Economics and Organization...columnist for Forbes magazine. Publisher of 8 books...many on race and gender discrimination. And what are your qualifications Royce?
23 years of flying back and fourth across the country talking to dealers? I would say that makes you less than qualified, or "misinformed" to be speaking on issues of psychology and the dynamics of human behavior. Much less insulting the mans credentials and the writing profession in general.

It doesn't take much common sense or knowledge to understand that race and gender discrimination can play a part in today's market of automotive sales. How big a part it plays is open to debate. But, an informed buyer wanting a fair and honest transaction ...will be open minded about the possiblities of discriminatory behavior...and act accordingly.

Kirstie_H

OK, this is getting personal and into an area that I don't feel comfortable with. If you want to talk about gender discrimination in automotive sales, fine, but we're not going to start talking about each other.

rroyce10

.... **research by Ian Ayres In a nutshell, he found that white women get the best deal from African-American men; African-American women got the best deal from white men; and both white men and African-American men got the best deal from white female salespeople.**
=======================

Lot's of people have read some of Ian Ayres material, including myself .. he's written topics on everything from corporate compensation to gay rights .. some of it makes sense, but most of it is written in the abstract .. that's the reason why most of his peers don't even agree with him ...

The reason why his viewpoint on race and gender discrimination is *very skewed* on this particular issue -- "He's not in the car business" ... he's on the outside looking in and his "research" was based on sending out 150/200 students and "then" decipher what he "thought" what happened, his translation, his opinion .... and let's be honest here, that's like Consumer Reports doing a test study on 200 vehicles and writing a complete consensus on 10 million cars .. how naive.

That said ... the reason why I even bothered answering this silly post is:

1.) "he found that white women get the best deal from African-American men" ..... - Really.?? .. in that case, every dealer should fire every African-American man .. because women are the majority of the decision makers and dealers would be losing money, big $$ ..

2.) "African-American women got the best deal from white men" ..... - Really.?? .. in that case let's fire the white men, or switch those buyers to an African-American because the dealer is losing even more money on these transactions ...

3.) "and both white men and African-American men got the best deal from white female salespeople." ..... - Really.?? .. again, it sounds like Ian Ayres needs to be doing his own homework and not relying on a guess and some major misinformation .... white/black female - it makes no difference ... Female salespeople usually have the highest gross profits in their stores, almost *Always* has the highest CSI in the store and their closing ratio's are usually 20% higher than their male counterparts .... thats the reason why dealers will bend over backwards when the find a quality female salesperson .... (not to knock my male brethren) ..l.o.l...

Of course, anyone can write anything they like .. just ask Oprah.!





Terry.

imidazol97

Good point.
Maybe Oprah could do a show on who should be salespeople because they are better at selling more product. Look what she did the Pontiac's G6!!! :P

golic

My thoughts on Ian Ayres...who is claimed "expert" on many topics.

It's like, who would you rather seek sex advice from..The Pope at the Vatican or Hugh Hefner at the Playboy Mansion. I am going with the guy who is "in the business" - I go with Hugh *giggle*

jipster

I gathered from your posts that you had no idea who Ayres was...or cared to. i.e "some writer" "the article"(it was a field study)...and when biancar asked if you had read Ayres you did not answer the question.

Nonetheless, you are certainly entitled to question his methodology. But, the fact that he was "not" in the car business would validate the study more, as I'm sure you understand there are certain "biases" that you and anyone in the field of car sales would have.

But, I think you are missing the big picture in this thread. Which is there is some race/gender discrimination that exists when purchasing/selling vehilces. And instead of firing the "white" and "African American" men as you suggested...how about training all employees on race/gender sensitivity...so "some" salespeople will look beyond a persons skin color, gender, religion...and treat everyone equally.

jipster

"dealers will bend over backwards to find a quality female salesperson"

Freudian slip???
I'm sure you meant that figuratively??

mackabee

It's the name of the book that Ian Ayres wrote. It also deals with discrimination towards women and african americans in health care and other endeavors. I have not read the book but may do so after this "heated" discussion. Could it be that women and african americans see the value in their vehicle purchases and stop negotiations sooner than the others that got a "better deal" (read lower price)?
:shades:
Mackabee

jlawrence01

Could it be that women and african americans see the value in their vehicle purchases and stop negotiations sooner than the others that got a "better deal" (read lower price)?

Terry always says "you don't get if you don't ask."

From my limited HR experience, I generally ask people what they are looking for when discussing salary. Some people ask for more and they get it. Other people ask for less - and sometimes way too little - and generally get it.

biancar

"Some people ask for more and they get it. Other people ask for less - and sometimes way too little - and generally get it.

Boy, is THAT true!

"see the value" and stop negotiating? Man, I hope I don't "see the value" until I'm down to the absolute lowest price I can get!

Speaking again to Ayers' research, what I found so fascinating was that his results indicated that you are better off looking for someone of the *opposite* gender and race to yourself. Usually conventional wisdom would say to look for someone *like* yourself - a woman customer should look for a woman salesperson, a black (or other ethnic group) should look for someone of the same background, and so on.

And Ayers found the reverse of that. I just think that's very interesting. I'm not sure what it says about discrimination, other than it doesn't always work the way we might think.

Speaking only for myself, a white, middle-aged woman (and this tiny sub-set of one person doesn't really prove a thing, I realize), of my last three successful car-buying experiences, two were with black, middle-aged salesmen, and one was with a young (summer job during college) white salesman.

Negative experiences during these processes were mostly with white, middle-aged salesmen. Two of these flat-out lied - one said "no blue Camrys are available anywhere on the East coast" - and I found one 10 miles away (bought from a black salesman); another time an Infiniti salesman told me over the phone "Yes, I have the model you want, come on up." Dealership was 90 miles away. I drove there, and turns out he did NOT have the model I specifically requested, but he could "get it for me" from Cleveland (some 200 miles away), at a cost of a few hundred dollars. Of course he didn't say THAT on the phone, or I wouldn't have driven so far. (This was in Michigan where there aren't many Infiniti dealers.) I left in disgust and bought the Maxima (from the college student).

Over my car-buying history of some 30 years (and ouch, how did THAT happen??), I've been a cute young chick with not much money, a not-quite-so young professional, still budget-conscious but with more money, and a middle-aged professional with enough money such that budget no longer determined what I would buy (within reason, of course).

By far, I got the worse deals when I was younger. The more money I have, the more care I take with spending it, perhaps. Partly it's because I know more now, partly it's because I don't really care if the salesperson likes me or not, as long as he/she has the car I want at the price I want to pay, and partly it's because I have a lot more negotiating skill than I did when younger.

Being young and cute back in the day didn't help me much. Being old and smart - that helps a lot!

jlawrence01

Speaking again to Ayers' research, what I found so fascinating was that his results indicated that you are better off looking for someone of the *opposite* gender and race to yourself.

So in other words, we continue to use racial/sexual characteristics in order to "get the best deals". I thought that we were supposed to be moving toward "judging a man by the content of his character and not the color of his skin."

The **ONLY** color that is relevant to me in the car buying transaction is ... GREEN. Who will give me the best deal with the minimum hassle?

I like research as much as the next person but I have to question some of the motives (and renumeration - both financially and professional) which lies behind such research.

jipster

"Being young and cute back in the day didn't help me much."

No offense...but perhaps you didn't know how to "work it" back in those golden days. Studies generally show the more attractive an individual is the more likely they are to be hired, receive favorable job evaluations, promotions,etc. Now, young, cute AND smart is a different story.
And as royce pointed out...good female salespersons generally do better than their male counterparts.
Which I would agree with based on my experiences. I have found the few female salespeople I have dealt with less pushy and more straightforward...less games....which helps me be more relaxed and ready to buy. That said, I'll try to get the lowest price possible no matter who I am dealing with.

biancar

LOL! Hee - I knew how to "work it" perfectly well when it came to getting hired, getting good job evaluations, promotions - plus getting cute boyfriends, had a lot of fun with flirting with attractive strangers, all that good stuff. Those were the days - now I only flirt with my cute husband.

But did it translate into getting a good deal on car purchases? No, have to say, not that I noticed. Possibly it helped a bit on one purchase, now that I think about it.

However, being smarter, and of course in today's world having a LOT more access to buying information, helps a lot more than being cute ever did. (Of course I'm not TOO un-cute, even now! But definitely older...)

jeffyscott

Yes everyone should have more sensitivity training...no one gets enough of that sort of crap yet, do they?

Not salesman, but certainly tired of politically correct training.

Any differences could also be due to the person on the other side of the transaction, the buyer. Don't think you can find a sample of buyer's with identical personalities, etc. but different skin color and/or gender...so how is the sample unbiased on the buyer's side?

biancar

I don't know how you'd ever tease out all the variables. Age, gender, looks, race, how we're dressed and present ourselves, knowledge about the car we want and about the sales process - all those things probably make some difference in how we're treated. We only have control over a little bit of that; we have no control over how a given salesperson might react to any of those variables.

When looking for a quality salesperson, we don't immediately know, upon entering the store, who is the most honest, the most knowledgeable, the most in need of a sale before the week is over. All we can go by is our own information, research that we've done pre-sale, about whatever is most relevant: the car itself, various financing options, the reputation of the dealership.

At the micro-level, I would guess that the reputation of the dealership probably counts above and beyond any particular salesman. This is where community knowledge comes in. I am much more likely to shop at a store where friends and family have good experiences, than I am at a place with a bad reputation. It wouldn't matter who the salesperson is, dealer reputation would get me into (or out of) the store in the first place.

719b

after following this thread for a few days i can't say if the opposite gender or race theory has any merit... i just have no idea.
i do know the salesman has very little to do with what kind of deal you will get. your deal will be determined by the guy the salesman runs to each time an offer is made. i doubt your salesman has the authority to close a deal without the approval of the general manager.
the general manager is the only one that knows how good of a deal he is willing to give on that particular day.

golic

I almost glad there are not many skirts in sales. My god I am a sucker for beauty and if given the chance I would take 2-3 hours of negatiotaing time and settle for MSRP +100 depending on the level of flirting *sigh*

I live in Chicago - not exactley the hot market for inground pools, but the number one company employs basically models for the sales staff. And in the summer they are at your house, dressed for the new pool you are about to fork over your kids education for, it must work.

But hey, I guess I am not normal. *smirk*

biancar

You would *settle* for MSRP plus $100? That's what all the flirting gets the poor girl, a chance to pay even *more* than MSRP?

golic

Noooo...you got it backwards Bianc...I am the buyer! *blush* She was the sales woman *note-pc*

Actually biancar, once I found out you were a girl *drool* i started reading your posts more *snicker*

Just kidding, I am a happily married man *convincing nod*

pat

but personally, I am sick to death of people attributing behaviors within transactions or other dealings to the gender and/or race of either person involved.

Maybe it's just all about the position of the stars and has nothing to do with color or gender. Or maybe it has to do with what life experiences and learned behaviors and individual personalities each person brings to the exchange. Maybe it has NOTHING to do with stereotypes.

Sheesh. Wouldn't that be a nice world to live in. I like to pretend that I do, actually, and hope that I am correct. I find that, for the most part, I actually am. Everyone should try that. Maybe we would get beyond having to see everything in terms of stereotypes. That really drives me crazy.

asafonov

Since discrimination (and that's not necessarily a bad thing in general - think of a term discriminate buyer) has been discussed here, perhaps another advantage of the Internet sales model is that, at least initially, it may hide all these attributes - race/ethnicity (but perhaps not gender.)

imidazol97

has been that the customer brings in their own race, gender, attitude stereotype and injects it into the transaction. Some outcomes are self-determined on the part of the consumer. Then OTOH some in the same group have open attitudes that are neutral and do just fine in interacting with others.

pat

I completely disagree with you. Those things are attributed to the "customer" by the "vendor." How can you know that you are right in those attributions? You can't.

We all need to just allow others to be who they are and not give them certain attributes based on OUR interpretation of their gender and their color.

Period.

pat

And on that note, please let me point out that I am not the host here, Kirstie is, and I apologize to her if I have taken this discussion in a difficult direction.

Let's just get back to a less contentious premise and try to find a way to select a good salesperson without having to worry about these kinds of things which I don't really believe have nearly as much relevance as some are trying to make out.

rroyce10

.... **Maybe it's just all about the position of the stars and has nothing to do with color or gender. Or maybe it has to do with what life experiences and learned behaviors and individual personalities each person brings to the exchange. Maybe it has NOTHING to do with stereotypes....**
============================

That's why I took a point with this particular topic .... the funny part is, when I faxed the highlights of Ayers "docu-drama" to other dealers, or they read it on their own or picked it up via the internet .. everyone just got that dead mullet look - it didn't make any sense to anyone and these are dealers across the board in Dallas, LA, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Denver, Pittsburg, Orlando, etc .... it was almost an insult .. it was like walking into a Dentist office and having the nurse say "oh, you have cavities" ~ without lookin' in your mouth ..l.o.l.....

Eh, whatta goin' to do ... he's on the faaaar end of the left side anyway (if you've read any of his other stuff) free speech and all that ... :P



Terry.

jipster

We are not dealing in absolutes with this study/thread Pat. We are talking about data that represents a "significant difference." In Consmuer Reports and other auto reliability studies, the difference between what is considered a reliable vehilce and one that is considered low in reliability is often just 4 or 5 % points. The same is held true in Ayers and others psychosocial studies of human behavior. Not "every" salesmen will act and give preference to a certain race or gender over another(discriminate). But, a significant percentage may. This is human nature to a large extent and has nothing to do with "stereotypes".

The fact that Terry's "boys" gave a dead mullet look is not surprising. As it(Ayers study) cast a less than favorable impression on salespeople and dealerships.

biancar

...the conclusion of the study was that discrimination (if that's even what you want to call it, I'm not sure that the term actually applies) was NOT in favor of one's own race or gender, but the opposite.

I am not surprised that dealers got that "dead mullet" look. Terry, in your 23 years in the business, or just as a plain ol' human being, have you ever noticed that what people actually do is sometimes, once in a while, every so often, different than what they CLAIM they do? And perhaps they don't even realize it?

Anyway, for myself, I'm done with this thread for a while. I've got no vested interest in whether anyone believes, agrees with, finds interesting, or has any reaction at all to that particular study. I found it interesting, is all, and first posted about it because someone (who seems to have disappeared from the topic) asked if race made any difference in the kind of deal people got.

Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe rain, maybe snow. Decide for yourself.

thebill

this discussion is getting boring

isellhondas

I don't know how many times I have to say this...

" How to find a quality salesperson"

Isn't that the title of this thread?

For the unpteenth time....ASK FOR A REFERRAL!!

Ask your family, friends, co-workers or the lady loading the trunk of her new Accord next to you at Costco.

" I see you have a new (insert make). Are you happy with it?". "I see you bought it at ABC Motors...were you happy with them?" " Would you reccommend the salesperson you used?"

People are usually more than happy to share their experiences both good and bad.

And, as a referral customer yuou will probably be treated better.

If people would do this instead of worrying about the last nickle, sending endless e-mails and pitting dealer against dealer, it would be a MUCH easier transaction!

And you probably won't spend any more money than using any other method!

golic

Isell- PUT THE COFFEE DOWN - lol.

I always do that, especially at the Gas Station..Hey- How do you like your Highlander....etc.

Although one time I nearly shocked this lady and before I could say another word I had a can of mace "pointed" right at me. I would strongly suggest you make sure you don't sneak up on them!!

What is protocol on this situation. Three weeks ago I went into the local Toyota dealership, spent 10 mins with a guy, gave him my card and asked for him to send me some info on the options. Never heard back from him.

So last night I walked in wanting to take a test drive and grabbed a green pea. Well, I am sure the other guy saw me and then I had catholic guilt- but he never responded back.

And what do you do, if you just dont like the person who greets you? Can you say I'd rather work with someone else?

rroyce10

.... **if you just dont like the person who greets you? Can you say I'd rather work with someone else? ..**



Be nice, be polite ... just make it clear you'd prefer to work with somebody else ... the dealer wants to sell a vehicle, they're not there for baby sitting lessons ................



Terry.

socala4

I want a car at a low price. I don't want a friend, a confidante, a teacher, a big brother or consultant, I want a car that was sold to me with as little margin as is possible. Every extra dollar is coming from my pocket, and I'm going to preserve my dollars, for my benefit.

If I want a salesman to be my friend, then my priorities are wrong. A car lot is not a social club, but a place to transact business, and my friends are elsewhere. (In any case, a true friend would sell the car at cost -- anyone who tries pull profit at your expense is not your buddy, so don't treat him like one.)

If I want a salesman to educate and advise me, then my priorities are wrong. A salesman is there to move inventory for the benefit of the dealer and to earn a living, two goals that aren't compatible with my goal -- paying as little as possible. If I want information, I do research, not leave it to a salesman to spin info to his benefit.

The pursuit of a "quality" salesperson is simply a waste of time. Any dealership that has your car at your price will do (although if you are concerned about maintenance or warranty work, then it MIGHT be helpful to choose one that has a good service department.)

pat

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. But others do not share your view and they are entitled to discuss amongst themselves how to choose someone to work with in the purchase of a vehicle.

Several of your posts along with some others have been removed since they were off-topic.

Please, everyone, let's stick to the subject. There is no reason to turn differing viewpoints into personal confrontations and there is absolutely no reason to keep getting perfectly good subjects of discussion shut down because you keep doing that.

Can anyone/everyone here exercise a little self-control? Let the hosts host. Stop telling others what to do and look after your own behavior, please.

imidazol97

I have to go with asking people which dealer and which salesman they bought their car from. Most people in this area are happy to tell you about their recently new or not so recently new car. The Midwest has lots of friendly people.

They especially will tell you when they are unhappy with the dealership overall. And they tell you the salesman they feel good about.

I recommend talking from a distance at first rather than approaching them before talking .

biancar

You are very right about the Midwest. I grew up in a small town in Michigan. There were only a certain number of dealerships, and people knew the individual owners, managers, and salespeople, either in person or by reputation, very well. It's the kind of town where you know some people from church choir, and others because you knew them years ago in high school, and others because your best friend's cousin's wife just bought a new car from ABC and was delighted, or went to XYZ and was treated horribly, whatever. You can't hide your reputation in a small town like you often can in a larger area.

I bought my Maxima from a Michigan dealership, while I was visiting my family on vacation, rather than from the dealer in Northern Virginia (where I now live) from whom I had purchased two previous cars, because I had less than stellar experiences in Va. but had a very easy, forthright, honest experience in Michigan.

I didn't know anything in advance about the particular salesman - he turned out to be very nice and a good guy, but it was the *dealership* reputation that got me in the door.

So, for what it's worth - I always put dealership reputation number one. The tone is set at the top. After that, it's the luck of the draw who you get.

Terry, I'm curious, how does a customer politely tell a salesman "You know, I'd prefer working with someone else." Personally, I've never been able to do it. Once I bought the car anyway (I really liked the car!), and other times I've walked out and gone elsewhere. But I've never managed the "let me deal with someone else" trick. Probably because, as stated above, I've felt that tone comes from the top, so if there's one bad apple, chances are good his teammates might have just the touch of rot, as well.

Maybe not fair, but how would a customer know?

golic

Just like the scarlet letter. I think salesperson who have earned the Highest CSI ratings should get to wear some sort of idnetification at the dealership. Special badge, shirt CAP- I don't know something.

Then when we as informed buyers enter the dealership we can look for the salesperson with the High CSI. If the other salespeople don't like it- well start earning higher CSIs *shrugs*

The good ones work hard for the ratings, they should be able to get an advantage off of it.

golic

Hey Biancar, when you said you grew up in a small town in Michigan I was waiting for you to hold up your right hand and point where!

I am a chicago boy, but spent my summers of me youth in Baldwin and the Ludington area. (Holds up hand and points just below pinky/index finger)