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Comments
Wonder if Subaru will swap to the 950s as OE tires. They seem to overlap with the RE92s.
BTW, the automatics had more CCAs, I guess because you can't push start them?
-juice
Cheers Pat.
-juice
Had no problems until yesterday. On my way to work, in stop-and-go traffic on a congested metro-area bridge, my car completely STALLED without warning. The "check engine" and "brake" lights came on. I had no brakes, no power, and no steering, and it was very frightening.
After about 20 very tense minutes waiting for help to arrive - worrying that someone was going to crash into me - a good samaritan restarted my car, and I drove it to a local Subaru dealer.
They ran computer checks and test drove it, but could not find a problem. Wanting answers, I called the dealer who sold me the car, and the salesperson told me to bring the car to them for a second opinion. They also found nothing, and gave no explanation as to why this happened...
I am worried that my car might stall again without notice. Has this happened to anyone else out there? Or does anyone know why my brand new car just died like that?
(More info: Before stalling, my gas tank was 3/4 full, the weather was about 50 degrees and drizzling, radio and thermostat were on.)
Also, I've had problems with the dealership. They are very unprofessional. Their financial/credit guy kept making passes at me when I was signing the paperwork to get my auto loan, and he did so again yesterday while I was waiting for the service dept to diagnose the problem with my car.
I would complain to the manager, but he's a creep, too. Yesterday, right in front of me, he started cursing because he was frustrated by how long it was taking to negotiate a deal with another customer... "I gotta sell a f**king car today, God d*mn it!" is what he said. That is a completely unacceptable way to behave in front of customers.
I am feeling like I might have made a mistake buying this car. I worry that I'm going to have mechanical problems with it, and will be at the mercy of the sexist, unprofessional people at the dealership, who I can't imagine will be helpful.
Sorry for the long message, but I am very frustrated.
How did the good samaritan start your wagon? This might give the service department a clue as to your problem.
Good luck from an '01 Bean owner with NO problems!
I'm sorry the dealership has such an apalling level of personnel working there, and agree you might consider establishing a relationship with the other place you stopped at. You were doubly impacted by having the dealer you bought it from not only do nothing to alleviate your concern, but deal clumsily with you and even insensitively make a pass. Incredulous, really.
You made a fundamentally sound decision to get this car and I predict it will turn out to be a very wise investment for you in the years to come. I have a couple thoughts for you in regards to the stalling.
1 - If you're the type to buy the cheapest gas available, stop doing this immediately and use a national brand's midgrade. I suspect the problem was cheap fuel and/or water in the fuel from a substandard gas station. It is common this time of year to have a bit of water in the gas due to the condensation of cooler temps. Go to an auto parts store and buy a can of HEET, or another brand of gasoline drier. It has a high content of alcohol, which combines with the water so that it will move through and burn (gasoline will not combine with the water).
2 - Be sure your gas cap is tightened thoroughly after fueling up. Get it to click at least 5 times before stopping when you tighten it. This is a critical seal on today's cars to be sure the engine's fuel injection system is working properly.
Also, can you tell us what happened when you tried to restart the car after it stalled? And what the helper did to get it started?
IdahoDout
In the last 6 months, I have had issues with two Subaru drive systems reveal tire circumference variances that surprised me. One was my Mother's car you all recall I towed a couple thousand miles (did some measuring before electing to remove the drive shaft). The other was my Pastor's Subaru which was making a rear CV sound.
These Subarus both had the same tire and size front and rear. When I measured them, they were in excess of 3/4 inches different in circumference as against Subaru's 1/4 inch allowance. The message here is that it takes really diligent tire rotations to successfully wear out a set of 4 tires while remaining within spec.
In addition, when you turn sharply (as into a parking space) the rear wheels describe an arc that is shorter than the fronts. This means they're turning notably slower. This means the 50/50 VC can cause a bit of 'axle windup' as the axles fight one another since you're on grippy pavement in reality (no slipping occuring).
Couple this turning action with slightly different tire circumferences and you can definitely get some odd sounds and steering feedback.
I suggest the following:
Jack each tire in turn after confirming pressures are correct and measure the centerline circumference. Measuring the tire's height (diameter) as some have advocated is useless. I used a piece of string and a marker on the tire, then measured the string marks with a tape measure on the garage floor for accuracy (you'll need a helper if you use the tape measure directly on the tire). I suspect you'll find some significant differences even though these are the same exact tire, due to wear. If using the string, be diligent in keeping the string from falling into the tread grooves, and choose a string that will not stretch as this will easily blow the measurements.
To alleviate the problem with the existing tires, put the smallest circumference tires on the rear. That way the larger rear tires are rotating faster and the VC will be less likely to rear it's head in tight turns when they slow down relative to the fronts.
This is worth taking the hour or so to measure and rotate. If you find the rears currently on the car are smaller, then swapping them will make a huge difference. I have a LandCruiser with a center VC in high range and it exhibits some strange tight handling if I neglect tire rotation as well, so I suspect this is part of the tight VC characteristics. Let us know what you find. I was quite surprised at my measurements and I suspect you will also be surprised.
IdahoDoug
Anyway, college days were spent at UW-Stout. 'bit' spent some time there too. Just slightly before my time...
--jay
"To alleviate the problem with the existing tires, put the smallest circumference tires on the rear. That way the larger (smaller??) rear tires are rotating faster and the VC will be less likely to rear it's head in tight turns when they slow down relative to the fronts."
Thanks,
Steve
You probably lost power assist on the brakes. They are hydraulic and you wouldn't lose braking power completely, you'd just get a really stiff pedal.
My guess is it was either the ECU, the alternator (which powers all the electricals), or the battery.
A battery is a cheap fix, I got a new one for $40 at Wal Mart, and one with more CCAs. It starts more easily now.
The dealer hopefully checked the ECU, but I'd also have them look at the alternator and test that, plus the accessory belt tension for the belt that turns the alternator.
Guess it could be the gas too. The H6 thrives on premium. It'll run with lower octane, but the ECU will retard ignition timing and you'll lose about 4 horsepower.
-juice
A) does it really help cold starting/performance?
b) can I go longer between oil changes?
c) what oil filter is best. I've heard bad things about Fram, but my GMC went 180+k on them.
d) how hard is it to do-it-yourself? keep in mind its 22 degrees outside and my garage is not heated.
so is it worth it?
side note: how can/do you adjust headlights?
--Jay
But if the difference is more than 1/4", you may need a new set of tires.
Sorry, the headlights on the Outback are different than the ones on my Forestser and on our Legacy.
Only change to synthetic if the car is relatively new. So after the break-in period, but before, say, 15k miles. That's what the chief mechanics at that chat told us.
I've thought about it a lot, but my Forester and Miata have both used dino oil for several years. I'm afraid a synthetic at this point might strip the seals and start an oil leak.
I bet it does help cold starting, since it doesn't get a thick as dino oil when it get real cold, and it flows better. Performance? I doubt it once the car has warmed up.
The oil lasts longer, but the filter won't. So you can probably use the 7500 mile interval, max.
The oil filter study had Purolator and Champion Labs filters at the top. Fram and Pennzoil filters were poor performers. I found some Car & Driver filters that Target used to carry on closeout, for just 40 cents! You betcha, I bought about a dozen, still have maybe 6 left. That was sweet, but they don't carry them any more, at least around me.
It's not hard. The Outback doesn't have the cover under the engine, so it's easier than a Forester. The oil filter points right down and is easy to access, though you may need an oil filter wrench if it's tight (but hand tighten when you replace it). The drain plug is easy to access, use a 17mm socket on a ratchet. Get a new 17mm crush washer for it. Just make sure you're removing the one at the bottom of the oil pan, not the transmission, which some Jiffy Lubes have done, d'oh! (*)
-juice
(*) D'oh is actually a word now, it was added to the dictionary!
Jim
Besides, can you imagine what a grey-market Blitzen would cost?
-juice
This has been a point of controversy for a while now, but the general consensus is just the opposite, which is newer tires should be mounted on the rear axle. I didn't realize or understand this until Click and Clack discussed the topic on air and in their newspaper column. Now Michelin has addressed the issue in their literature, going as far as producing handouts for customers at Michelin dealers. Here's a link to Michelin's website that briefly discusses it: http://michelinman.com/care/tire_saving_tips/replacing/replacing_f.html
-Ty
Jim
1. Subaru, like many other manufacturers, uses a set of small drum brakes in the center of the hub or inboard on the axle for the handbrake. Don't see the rear rotors warping in this scenario... but yes, you can fry the small drums.
2. Consider for a moment the real drag on the VC caused by small tire diameter differences. Now consider what happens when the rear wheels are attempting to lock, which slows down the front wheels solely through the locking action of the VC. I've known people who ruined their VC getting stuck in a ditch, because it overheats from the slippage of having one set of wheels on the ground and the other in infinite slip. It's not hard see some equivalence in that type of strain to dragging the rear wheels with a forgotten handbrake.
-Colin
I guess that's why they tell you to rotate often.
-juice
Michelin is simply recommending to keep the best tires on the rear axle for optimum handling given the situation. Like you said, though, the fronts will wear faster (unless you have a rear-wheel drive and spin the tires, I guess), which means they'll have to be replaced sooner. At that replacement point, you would put the new tires on the rear and move the existing rear tires to the front.
Given that strategy, it seems more expensive in the long run to keep replacing only 2 tires at a time. Yet another reason to replace all 4, rotate them regularly, and keep the pressure at the recommended level.
The Michelin link is interesting. Does Subaru have a recommendation on mounting two new tires, front vs rear? (or just get 4 new tires!)
I think the reasoning behind installing them on the rear is the same argument about tire chains. On a FWD, chains in front and not in back means when you try to stop, the front grabs but with no traction in the rear, the tail just spins around out of control.
Jim
Jim
I guess Michelin is trying to prevent oversteer. Most drivers don't know how to react. Understeer is generally safer.
Good to hear of another good wholesale source.
-juice
I think those guys were being extra careful given that subaru does endorse the use of synthetic,strange since my local Subaru dealer is actually recomending synthetic over dino,especially given our cold climate, less wear and tear and easier starts.
Cheers Pat.
I changed the gear oil on my Miata a couple of winters ago on a bitter cold day. The stuff is 75w90, thick-thick, so I replaced it with the same viscosity in a synthetic gear oil. I used a hand pump to force the oil up a tube into the tranny and diffy.
MAN, that was hard. The stuff was so thick!
I did the same to the tranny of our 626 on a hot day, and it was a piece of cake. And that was with synthetic gear oil. Imagine dino.
-juice
I've luckily had nothing but excellent experience with my 2001 LLBean (close to 33K miles) and the dealer I used to buy and subsequently service the car - Curry Subaru in Yorktown Heights, NY
Ralph
My wife really likes that cargo bin. It's seldom removed from her car.
--- Lowell
I will definitely try using higher quality gasoline in my car. As a matter of fact, when I thought about it again, I remembered I had fueled up at a "no-name" gas station the day before my car stalled. I'd never used them before, but there was a line at my usual gas station, and I was in a hurry. Bad gas could definitely be a factor.
Also, you have convinced me to complain to Subaru about the dealership. While I knew their behavior was wrong, I was initially afraid to complain because I feared retaliation during future service visits. However, if I work with a different dealer, that won't be an issue. Besides, if they've acted that way towards me, they're probably doing the same thing to other women - and they need to stop.
Juice, if my car stalls again after I make the switch to better gasoline, I will have the ECU, alternator and battery checked out.
Idaho Doug, you articulated what I was feeling so well. Thank you for understanding the very heart of the matter here, and for offering such practical suggestions. (To answer your question, while I'm quite embarrassed to admit this: after my car stalled, I was in such a panic that I did not try to restart the car. Since this had never happened to me before, I thought I had completely lost my brakes and steering, so I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to control the car if I got it started again. So when that nice guy came to help me, he simply started it right up! At least now I know what to do if this ever happens again.)
If anyone else out there has any related stories/advice, I am still all ears. However, I'm already feeling much better thanks to all of the nice, caring people who have posted responses.
On Synthetic the hot running oil Pressure never varys, wheras on dino the hotter it gets the lower the oil pressure which more than proves dino loses viscosity the hotter it gets,lower viscosity plus hot engine equals lower protection.
Cheers Pat.
Jim
Colin, I think my original point "The VC can easily handle transfering torque to the rear longer than the rear brakes could handle that abuse." is still valid regarding the dragging parking brake. Though it is not really a difference of opine since we both agree that dragging the rear brakes is a bad thing, eh? :-)
I think Michelin's recommendation on the tires is a little generic, personally (surprising since I'm a Michelin fanatic). Juice's point is well taken and I'd recommend someone put a set of news on the front where they wear faster.
Interesting thought starter on ABS, though:
In severe braking, the fronts generally lock before the rears on a healthy vehicle. New tires on the rear (turning slower) would engage the ABS later (takes more front tire slippage to slow down to, then drop below, the rear tire's RPMs). For some annoyingly sensitive systems, this may be a good thing, but for a market average this may not be the best.
With the new tires on the front, the ABS system may be a bit more sensitive, but now the most likely to lock (front) tires have maximal traction to provide superior actual braking and to resist locking. Overall, I'd still put mine on the fronts, though I have not done this due to a lifelong "all four new at a time" ethos.
IdahoDoug
the other interesting thing is that the VC seized. I commented about that before... I've only heard of two seizing, ever, and in both cases they were the result of a mistake choosing a rearend and tranny (thus front differential) that didn't match ratios.
otherwise I'd thought the VC just wears out and does nothing over time. presumably this forester had 4 tires the same rated size... regardless of tread wear, that's nothing at all like running 4.11:1 r&p in front and 4.44:1 rear!
-Colin
When your engine stalls, you really don't loose your brakes or steering, it just feels like it. You do loose the power assist, but you can still brake and turn, although it is very difficult. If you are not very strong, you might have to pull on the wheel with both hands to get it to turn, but that's better than running into something. And remember, you always have your hand brake. That is not power assisted, and in a newer un-rusted car, it should work.
The finance guy at the sealer should be canned. It gives dealers a bad name to have someone like that around. Who knows, it's probably the owners brother-in-law, and he can't be fired.
You didn't make a mistake buying a Subaru. I've had 6 of them and they are great cars. If you are from a large urban area, there may be an independent garage that will do maintenance work on Subarus. Ask around, and check the yellow pages. They might be able to figure out why it stalled. My 96 Outback Sport had a bad stumbling problem two years ago (at 110,000 miles), and a couple bottles of Techron fuel system cleaner cleared it up.
Ken
To emphasize IdahoDoug's point, I've always used name-brand gas and my Forester has never quit on me.
I'd also urge you to call SOA and complain about the dealer. Not only will you be making a difference, but I'm more than certain that your report will be held confidential.
I hope you find confidence in your Subie again!
Ken
ONE, I hope that is the case (I'll know latter when I drive it more), and TWO, I hope this is not an indication of general sloppiness with this dealer that I'll have to put up with latter.
Cheers!
Paul
1- The metal discs/blades got so hot they warped and physically interfere with each other.
2- The VC fluid got so hot it coked up into a semi solid.
Either way, yowza.
Kens - I think it's important to realize that same tire, same pressure does NOT counterindicate different circumferences. As mentioned above, I personally measured 2 Subarus with the same tire and same pressure and found differences easily capable of activating the VC when it should not. I don't think the casual owner fully comprehends how diligent they must be on tire rotations to prevent this uneven wear - fronts get smaller far faster.
IdahoDoug
I won't let them touch my tranny if it means taking the tranny out to fix a pin. Hands off my loveable Subie.
I firmly set the parking brake at all times when parked, so I don't worry about it slipping out of park.
I figured he was wrong but went along with it. I just changed the plugs and wires (at 55k) and replaced plain ol' Champions (not platinum) with NGKs. The most difficult part was getting the boots off of the plugs, the rest is really quite straightforward.
Also checked the brake pads, still have 6mm front and 4.5 mm rear. The limit is 1.5mm. In the coming weeks, I'll flush the radiator and replace the brake fluid.
Jim
I don't doubt you for a second that the circumference can be off even with the same tires, milage and pressures. I just wanted to point out that there were no obvious errors. My friend has been diligently rotating tires every 5000 miles or so.
We're scratching our heads.
Ken
Jim
Cheers!
Dave.
I agree with you and suspect that #2 is what happened. the viscous fluid is a lot like ATF, and when sheared until severely overheated, it can turn solid too.
-Colin
At 300 miles, on my complaint, the dealer replaced the timing belt tensioner to reduce the noise. This had little or no effect. I now have 12K miles and because its getting colder in the NE, the noise is all too apparent, I think because it takes the engine longer to warm up.
A couple weeks ago, I made an appointment with the dealer to leave the car overnight and go out with a tech the next AM for him to have a listen. A loaner was provided...thanks SOA. We started out and I wanted to go up a hill so I could duplicate the drive from my house every AM. The noise is louder with the engine under a load. About 100 yards into the drive, I told the tech that the noise he was hearing was what I was complaining about. His response was immediate: "Road test over". We drove back to the dealer lot.
The tech proceeded to explain to me that the clattering is an inherent part/characteristic of the boxer engine. He referred to the engine as crude and said that while other Japanese big makes put huge resources into making their engines quiet, Subaru does not. I asked if there was anything wrong with the engine and he said no. In other words, dead end, live with it.
I've read almost all the posts on these Subaru boards from their beginnings. I'm familiar with the Phase I noisy engines (97-99 2.5's IIRC). But I thought the newer SOHC engines were quiet. I'm confounded as I believe much thought and engineering goes into Subaru cars and yet they still have engines that make so much noise when cold. I'm impressed with all other aspects of the vehicle. I'm coming from a very expensive and recent Oldsmobile with so many problems that I traded it after 18 months so I'm just thrilled at the fit, finish, versatility and value my OB offers.
Please, could anyone with a 00 or newer (99 for the Foresters) Subaru tell me their experiences with cold engine noise. Do they all do this, as the dealer would have me believe. Also, what exactly is going on to make the noise and are there any remedies? I've read about the replacement pistons but only in the older 2.5's. Is this an option for me? Patti...any suggestions?
BTW: To satisfy my curiosity I drove an 03 OBW off the lot for a test spin to see if the noise was in that one and yes, it was. But that still doesn't make me feel any better about mine.
2 - Be sure your gas cap is tightened thoroughly after fueling up. Get it to click at least 5 times before stopping when you tighten it. This is a critical seal on today's cars to be sure the engine's fuel injection system is working properly.
Not in NJ. It is illegal, and verboten, to pump your own gas here. Did I mention that unleaded regular goes for $1.34-$1.26 here?
I'd suspect the alignment. If you've gotten the alignment a 20K, chances are the wear pattern was already in your tires and it was too late to correct for it.
Also, lots of places offer alignments, but many of them are often not very accurate. Did you go to an alignment specialist or a general shop? Specialists are a little more pricey, but I find it well worth my money.
Ken
Although unlikely, it may be that your noise is caused by piston slap. In any event, I'd document your case with SOA and see if a different dealer can take a look. Another possibility is to have a regional tech representative take a look as well.
Ken