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Comments
Were the Silverstars worth the extra cash?
Even my '98 does.
-juice
I will be replacing the fog light bulbs with Silverstars this weekend. Rob M.
-juice
I was on the interstate and it was night time.... I was too scared to stop there. I drove about 2 miles to the nearest exit, got off and pulled immediately into a parking lot and turned the car off. Some smoke started coming out from under the hood. I checked the oil level and I couldn't see much on the dipstick.
I got the shop's promise in writing that they would pay for any needed repairs that result from this, and also kept the filter, which had a damaged gasket. But I know you can't always tell right away if damage has occurred in the engine. They told me that the fact that I stopped the car before I heard any noise coming from the engine was a positive sign.
Everything seems to be running okay two weeks later, but I'm still nervous. What do you all think?
I have a 2000 Outback Sedan, and I've had some major repairs on it. At 66k, my head gasket cracked, repaired it at $2200. About 2 months later, the recall came out, they reimbursed me $1600. Now at 109k, by head gasket cracked AGAIN! They wanted $2200 to fix it, and I negotiated SOA covering 50% of the cost. I have been the only owner of this car, and have maintained it perfectly...All scheduled maintenance done on time. I have also done brakes, timing belt, oxygen sensor, and some grinding done (on routers, I think).I have a few questions:
1. Have you heard of the head gasket going out again on these recalls?
2. How long can I expect to drive this car without having more major problems?
3. If this was yours would you dump it?
I had hoped to drive this car for a long time....but maybe's its life is over. Thanks for your advice.
I had a really nasty oil leak on my '96 OBW for a while and it progressed to the point where I was putting in more than 2 quarts with every fueling. I replaced the necessary gaskets/seals at 144K and I am at 202K now. Any time the car dropped lower than 2 quarts down (how quickly it would do this seemed to vary a lot based on ambient temps), I would notice a distinct ticking noise of the camshafts/lifters and that was my "warning" that I needed to fill up again *right now*.
Now, just a few weeks ago, the main crank seal blew and dumped basically all the oil in the engine. My wife caught it quickly and stopped the car. I repaired it and it started up well, but now it makes more of a persistent clicking sound that I think is some degree of damage from the incident. When the seal blew was the first time I have ever seen the oil pressure light come on with the engine running (and, like I said, I have been more than two quarts down before!).
In summation, I do not think you have anything about which to worry. However, watch it like a hawk and if any unusual (based on your experience) sounds develop within the engine then make sure it is documented/inspected. I have to wonder if that shop installed the oil filter without lubing the seal first... ?
Assuming no other problems with the vehicle, I think the repair is worth the expense. You'll likely not have any major repairs for at least another 50K (I'd hope for more!), and $1100 is well worth a 50K return. In the end it really depends on whether you are happy with the vehicle in every other respect.
The cost/benefit needs to be weighed in your terms, not mine!
When did the first repair take place? Since it was before the related TSB, I wonder if the gaskets used during that repair were still of the "old variety." They are supposedly more reliable now.
You're driving 40 MPH on ice with stock tires??? You're certainly braver than I am.
Again, thanks for any ideas. I will be taking it to the dealer in the next couple weeks, but considering that they wont be able to re-create the problem, i want all all the ideas i can get.
Corey
Gaskets - were the heads warped the first time around? My guess is no, since the 2nd set lasted a lot of miles.
-juice
Sounds to me like you have nothing to worry about, but certainly pay close attention and document for the next 3 months or 1000 miles minimum. If there was immediate damage, it should manifest itself quickly.
This is the only Subaru I've owned, so I consider it normal. But, if you have owned others without getting this feeling or if it is really causing vehicular instability, then definitely get it checked out. Why do you not feel the dealer could replicate it? Are roads not slick around where the dealership is located?
Steve
It's pretty normal.
Oh, roads aren't flat. The crown causes the swaying too
-Dave
Unless it "jumped" on them, it is an absolute no brainer to check the alignment marks before re-assemble.
No kudos for your shop.
John
Steve
On flat land everything is OK... throw in some mild rolling hills (no challenge for the engine) and I get pulled down 5 mph going uphill... and overshoot 5 mph going downhill.
My other vehicles maintain very stable speeds on the same routes.
Is this 'normal' for the Subie cruise or is this something that will benefit from some adjustment?
occurs at high speeds, especially going uphill (I've been forced down to
speeds of 30mph or so to keep the dial out of the red). Sometimes I
smell coolant, sometimes not. I've checked for coolant leaks a couple
of times and not found any. I've replaced the thermostat for the cooling
fan to no avail. Any ideas?
there's a lot of load on your engine when ascending hills. high load leading to overheating is often a headgasket issue, but there could be other causes.
I hope you're under 100k miles-- you would probably be covered under the extended warranty program. have a dealer check it out.
~Colin
Time for a cooling system pressure test and/or a radiator flow test.
Mileage is only 40000.
It seems like coolant is getting out through the radiator cap. Is it
possible that a defective cap is the problem? As I said, I get overheating
under high loads, eg going up hills, but things cool down almost
immediately after I get to the top and start going back down.
~Colin
-Dan-
I've been there.
Jim
I have a 2002 Forester and have the "piston slap when cold" problem. I'm planning on selling the car to a neighbor. I'm also considering getting a new Forester.
The first problem is I don't want to sell the car to a friend when it makes that kind of racket during that first 15 minutes it takes until the engine warms.
Question 1: Approximately how much would it cost to repair this piston slap problem? ...ballpark figures gladly accepted. I've gathered there are two possible solutions. Replace 2 of 4 pistons or go the short block route.
Question 2: Is the piston slap situation still a problem on the 2006 models? I don't really want to have this happen again.
This piston slap problem just happens randomly to Subaru engines? There will be some that never develop the problem?
Thank you in advance for any answers!
--'rocco
The problem is not only that there is too much clearance between the piston and the cylinder wall, but also that the cylinder wall has probably become oblong (bulged in the middle)...it's not only theh piston that wears (collapses, basically) but also the cylinder wall.
It's probably a metallurgic defect that comes up in the production process and not all engines will necessarily be affected.
In an attempt to reduce mass, many mfgrs have trimmed the piston skirt, the part that extends down below the wrist pin. One down side is that the shortened piston can develop some lateral motion within the bore, a kind of vibration that gives that tick/rattle sound. Once everything expands to full diameter, it goes away and the piston moves more smoothly. Subaru is not the only one with this issue, and that has been documented by other sources as well. And of course not all Subi engines do this. A thousandth of an inch here, a thousandth there, and the conditions are just right for this resonance. Mine does it for a full 15 minutes on zero degree days, a minute or two at 30'F, almost none on a warm start.
A few members of this board have pushed SOA to do something in cases were their rattle would not go away or was to the extreme. IIRC, Mark and others (?) got pistons 2 & 4 replaced with slightly oversized units. There may also have been a longer skirt part number that was available at one time as well. If you are under the 5yr/60k warranty, I encourage you to push your dealer for an answer.
I am not sure that any cylinder honing was needed at the time. I seem to remember that those that saw the walls and pistons said that there was little or no visible wear pattern. I have also not heard anyone complain of a loss of compression or increased oil consumption associated with this - just noise. You would think that if there was scoring occuring, compression and oil consumption issues would be telltale signs. Same with oil analysis. A few members did this, and reported that aluminum was up, but not significantly.
While I was also concerned, and visited my dealer when my car was younger, I'm pretty convinced that this is more "cosmetic" than a functional problem. I'm sure that the rest of the crew will jump in here if my memory of details is false (or I'm 'fibbin)!!
Steve
I need one of the half dozen or so members who have had it done to jump in with further details. I understand that there is a distinct P/N for the replacement piston assembly.
Steve
I think I ended up with a second short block that had the same tolerance issue as the first. I never determined if Subaru finally addressed it in the short blocks they were sending out, or if it was just the luck of the draw.
I think I would personally go with the piston replacement if I had to do it over again.
Karl
My son has a 1988 GL Hatchback. We have recently discovered that when he turns the ignition off and takes the key out, power remains on to the dashboard and accessories.
I'm wondering if there might be a relay somewhere sticking on, or if the only solution is replace the ignition switch?
Thanks for all replies.
Ed
here's a discussion of the issue: (hope this is helpful)
http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~dwhite/pages/subnoises.html
Personally, it sounds like a dubious solution. If I were going through all the trouble of busting down an engine, I'd just do it right....Subaru doesn't want to spring for a short block so they give you this alternative, but really now......
One of these dead links is to a sight called the "Ultimate Subaru Message Board", you might be able to do a key word search and find this missing chat thread if you become a member.
Armed with this information I successfully insisted on a short engine block replacement in the Spring of 2003 when I had this problem on my 1997 OB Sport. This was covered under the 6 year / 60K Subaru "Assurance Plan". The short block alone, excluding labor, was about $1,350.00
I was pretty adamant because I bought this car with the intention of driving it into the ground and I wasn't going to accept a 10% reduction in the life of the engine which represents a year of use. If you are planning on selling the car arguably it is a known defect you need to disclose and this reduces the market value of the car.
Good luck. I'm curious to know what you wind up doing.
~Cath
I drive around for a little while and find out the extra I put in is now in the overflow tank. Shouldn't the coolant flow out of the radiator and into the reservoir when hot and flow the other way when cold? Maybe the hole at the top is plugged up--is it a valve or just a hole?
Thanks
Eric
My 2003 Legacy developed the piston slap when the weather started turning cold (below 30 degrees F). If the ambient temperature was above 30 degrees, no slap. Under 30 degrees, it took at least 10 minutes before the noise went away.
I brought the car in to my local Subaru Service shop along with printouts from some of the Edmunds posts proving it was a common problem. With no arguments, my dealer replaced two pistons under warranty. The engine had to be removed, the crankcase split, and two pistons replaced. The replacement pistons looked very similar to the originals. No machine work (honing or boring) was required.
When the re-assembly and re installation was completed there was no more piston slap. (But there was a vibration I could feel through the accelerator pedal - as if the cable was misrouted and rubbing against the engine).
The service department was not able to fix the vibration, so I traded the 2003 in on a 2005 Legacy Sedan. The new Legacy had no piston slap problem at any temperature. I have driven a 2005 Outback in cold weather. It had no piston slap noise. So maybe Subaru has fixed the problem permanently.
I know many people with GM autos with a 3.1 litre V6 engine who have driven the slapping engines for 100,000 + with no failures related to the piston slap. So, I don't think it affects longevity.
Bottom line, the piston slap sounds cheap, but probably won't hurt longevity.
You've got it right. The cap has two seals and a little poppet valve. The bottom seal is spring loaded, and when the radiator pressure reaches about 1 atm above (around 15 psi) coolant flows past the lower seal. Blocked by the upper seal, it flows out thru the little hole, down the tube and into the tank. When the temp drops in the radiator, it creates a vacuum. This opens the poppet valve, and fluid should be sucked back up the tube from the tank, and down to refill the radiator.
If the uppper hose is collapsing, it indicates that it cannot pull fluid back in. Either the poppet has somehow welded/jammed shut, or more likely sludge in the overflow tank is clogging the tube, and the vacuum cannot draw it up. The outflow pressure far exceed the force of the draw vacuum, so the action can become "one way". Pull off the hose, remove the bottle, and flush everything clean. If this does not fix it, you might need a new cap.
Steve
Like I say, I'm going to be trying to sell the car and it really sounds awful with that clattering for the first 15 minutes after startup. I know I wouldn't buy a used car with that kind of racket going on. No amount of convincing coming from the seller that it doesn't effect longevity or the sound it perfectly "normal" according to Subaru would prompt me to buy such a car.
Now, can anybody address my second question? Are there any reports of this identical problem happening on the MY2006 engines? I like Subarus and would consider buying another one but maybe not if this problems still exists on their new cars. Has anyone heard of piston slap or any loud racket going on when the engine is cold on the new 2006 vehicles?
TIA!
--'rocco
In the process of buying a 2005 Legacy OB I asked the mechanic that did the pre-purchase inspection about the dreaded piston slap. I forget the exact details of his explanation but essentially it is the same one that a previous poster gave you: the condition does still exist in all current model lines (but not in all cars). If an individual car developes the condition it is the degree --or severity-- that determines whether it is a "problem" or not.
In layman's terms if you think of piston slap as a kind of year round "cold weather start" then a couple of minutes or so of that kind of start while the vehicle is "warming up" probably isn't a big deal. The 15 minutes or so you describe is obviously a problem.
You take your chances when you buy any vehicle. Even though I have had the problem in the past (with my 1997 OB Sport) and even though the pre-purchase inspection doesn't rule out the problem developing over a period of years (as it did with the OB Sport) I still went ahead with the purchase of the 2005 Legacy OB. However, given the amount of warranty work my OB Sport required I would never buy another Subaru without getting the Mfr's extended warranty. This time around I got the 7 year / 100K, $0.00 Ded, Gold Plus "Subaru Assurance Plan". (I paid about 45% off of MSRP, only because the dealer beat the 40% discount I found elsewhere).
I am pretty confident that if I do the service necessary to maintain the warranty and consistently go to the same dealer so they have the perception that I take good care of the vehicle that ultimately the dealership &/or Subaru of America will take care of any problems. This was my experience with the OB Sport. As I mentioned in a previous post, I got a $1,350.00 short engine block replacement (excluding labor) about 4 months or so before my 6 yr / 60K warranty ran out. That was back in the Spring of 2003.
Let me know if you would like the details on where to get a good deal on a Subaru warranty. Also, according to another Subaru owner on a different board (Prices Paid and Buying Experience) you may also be entitled to a $200.00 loyalty rebate on the warranty. I haven't looked into that for myself yet.
Good Luck,
~Cath
thanks
eric
This is a follow up to my most recent post. Try checking out this board / link:
Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons - Problems & Solutions
ateixeira, "Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons - Problems & Solutions" #5901, 2 Mar 2006 10:57 am
Post #s: 5931 & 5932
If one of these posts is accurate then piston slap is a relatively rare problem, which makes me feel better about my purchase.
~Cath
When I had my pistons replaced, the district tech manager told me that the replacement pistons had longer skirts to stabilize piston travel. However, that was back in 98 when Subaru had just switched to "skirtless" pistons in an effort to maximize engine output. The repair completely fixed the noise.
Even then, it was not a common occurence. I also believe that Subaru did add more of a "skirt" in subsequent years so I would imagine that Phase II (introduced in MY99) and later engines would have a lower tendency to exhibit this behavior.
Ken