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BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign

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Comments

  • 5speed55speed5 Posts: 31
    No "need for displacement"??? Take a good look at what going on. BMW comes out with a 394HP M5. It leads the pack. Audi then comes up with a 450HP RS6. Not to be outdone, Mercedes goes for 469HP in the E55. Even Jaguar got into it with the R model.

    The 530 has 225HP/214ft-lbs. torque. Now look at the competition in it's class. The Audi A6 has 250HP/258ft-lbs, and the redesign for '04 is looking at 300HP. The Japanese are fighting back with the Acura TL-S at 260HP/232ft-lbs. & the Infiniti G35 at 260HP/260ft-lbs.

    For $50,000, I (as well as others) EXPECT BMW to lead the class and not just sit back because they 'just' came out wih the 3.0 a few years ago.
    Why should I have to spend an extra 7-8 thousand dollars for the V8.

    Today's economy is rough, and the other manufacturers are fighting hard to be cheaper in cost and give you more. Again, I expect BMW to do the same if they want my money.

    As far as the side note regarding the M3 getting a V8...look at the competition. Audi S4, now with a V8 & 340HP..Gotta "keep up with the Jonses"!!
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    but hp figures don't make it all. Despite its 40hp disadvantage the 330i still performs on par with the Acura for example. And despite its more than 100hp disadvantage too, the 330 Cd has better in gear acceleration than a 911!

    Keeping up with the Joneses is a game that BMW is not that stupid to play. It updates its engine when it has new technology to put into it. And hp doesn't make driving pleasure, which is, above all else, BMW's mantra.

    The Opel Speedster Turbo performs on par with the BMW M5, but its engine is only rated at 192hp. Hint, hint. Horsepower means nothing. Horsepower/weight ratio is everything.
  • enkkenenkken Posts: 10
    Horsepower may not mean much in everyday driving, but it should matter a great deal in "ultimate driving experience" as BMW is advertising. I am disappointed that the new 5 series is bringing back 2.5i with paltry 184 hp. 2.5i is not as good as 3.0i in terms of performance and efficiency quotient. 545i should be quite exciting, except that it probably will cost 15-20K more than the other models. I agree with 5speed5 that BMW should lead in hp/torque departments, instead of lagging behing domestic and Japanese sport sedans.

    I think it is more appropriate for the new 5 series to get 3.0i as the base engine. Even older 2.8i is better than 2.5i. Maybe BMW knows that most people would not buy 525i but go with 530i, thereby making more profits for the company.
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    Strip off the 2.5l (and even 2.2l) offer and BMW can say goodbye to its EU sales altogether. FWIW, here the 2.5l is rated at 192hp, not 184. Paltry this is not. And once again, raw hp figures don't make everything. Inline sixes have this unique propension (along with 60° V12s) to keep oomph (ie torque) all along the rev range, and therefore it does not come as a surprise that the current 2.5l and 3.0l perform well enough, despite their "paltry" *peak* hp figures. And they both have great real world fuel economy too. Except when you mate them to a slushbox but hey, you get what you pay for.

    And then there are Diesel offerings, which won't be offered in the US. But they account for 80% of 5 series sales here.

    BMW does intend to upgrade its engines, but it will be to bring in Valvetronic mainly. Increasing the displacement in their I6s will only bring them disservice as they would alienate their sales all over the world except in the US. Should they do this they'd lose either torque band or revving ability, depending on what they would choose to increase, and engine efficiency in both cases. Just wait for the next engine rehauling, BMW consistently does this every few years...
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hi gang, I just got back from Paris last night, and have a few items to share.

    First, I saw a new unbadged E60 on the Paris Pariferique last Thursday afternoon. I have to say, it doesn't look much better in real life than it does in the pictures. My impression is that it looks like a cross between a Pontiac and a Peugeot, and maybe not even as good looking as either.

    Regarding engines part 1, European engines and the American engines produce the same power, the difference in the ratings is the measurement standard used.

    Regarding engines part 2, BMW has been working on the "Valvetronic" versions of their engines for some time (which should increase both HP and Torque), and while I am a little surprised that they are not releasing it for the I6 engines with the launch of the E60, I suspect that it's better to launch with a proven engine than something that might be bug-ridden.

    Regarding engines part 3, BMW already makes a 3.5 liter V8 (sold in Europe and other parts of the world), so it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will increase the displacement of the I6 engines anytime soon.

    Regarding engines part 4, (this one is pure speculation on my part), could the delay in the release of the Valvetronic I6 engines be (at least in part) because BMW is going to incorporate both the Valvetronic of recent BMW fame and the "Direct Injection" technology of the new 6.0 V12 from the 760Li? Hmmm, the 3.0 Liter I6 with Valvetronic and Direct Injection? Can you say 260 HP and 245 pounds of torque? Sure, I knew you could. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo

    P.S.

    Disclaimer, regarding my fourth engine item, just consider me to be Feldwebel Shulz/Sergeant Shultz, "I know nothing..."
  • mxpro738mxpro738 Posts: 59
    Has anyone seen specs on the new 5? Dimensions (interior and exterior), performance, etc.?

    Thanks.
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    I'm not sure about the standard used to calculate power. Prior to an unknown date to me I know that the US used the SAE norm to calculate engine power, but since then DIN is used, just like in Europe (ie, torque measured at the flywheel, standard setup, running all of its accessories).
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    We had an interesting thread going over on the 3-Series board a couple of years ago regarding this issue, a thread where a number of engineers chimed in with their knowledge. In short, the numbers that BMW (and other manufacturers) posts for U.S. cars is SAE and for European cars is BHP. As a point of reference, BHP is calculated with an unencumbered engine (ie. no accessories, and exhaust system), while SAE tests the engine with those items in place and at a standard atmospheric (constant barometric pressure, temperature and humidity). As such, the two BMW I6 engines sold both here in the U.S. and over in Europe have the following, essentially identical ratings:

    Engine/BHP (Europe)/SAE (U.S.)
    2.5 Ltr/192@6000/184@6000
    3.0 Ltr/231@5900/225@5900

    I hope this helps.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    My book on mechanics doesn't say so. According to it, SAE consists in running without accessories, whereas DIN is running with accessories.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    It seems that your book is seriously out of date. Prior to 1972, vehicle manufacturers who sold cars in the U.S. advertised what is called "SAE Gross" horsepower ratings, which is a measurement of the horsepower at the flywheel on an engine with no accessories other than the Carburetor, Oil Pump, Fuel Pump and (sometimes) Water Pump. Since that time cars sold in the U.S. have been required to use the "SAE Net" horsepower ratings test. SAE Net tests engines at the flywheel, with all accessories and the exhaust system intact.

    SAE Net vs. DIN/PS:

    SAE uses the definition where 1 Horsepower equals the ability to lift 33,000 pounds 1 foot in 1 minute. The European DIN/PS is essentially the "Metric Horsepower" equivalent to SAE Net, which is defined as the ability to lift 450,000 kg 1 cm in 1 minute. The two measurements are close; however, they are not the same, both use similar testing techniques (similar atmospherics and such, although not exactly the same) with similarly equipped engines, with the primary difference being the formula. While I have seen as many as a half a dozen conversion factors, the fact remains that the exact same engine will always have a higher DIN/PS rating when compared to its SAE Net rating.

    Regarding BHP: Upon further analysis, BHP can mean so many things (at the flywheel, at the driven wheels, with all accessories, with some accessories, with no accessories…) that it really is meaningless, which makes on wonder why BMW uses it on their UK web site. As such, I should never have used it as an example in my previous post.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • enkkenenkken Posts: 10
    Does anybody have info on specifications and the date of availability for wagon versions of the new 5 series? There seems to be no consensus on the final design, since there are several different photographs that float around on the web.

    Will it retain 2.5i as the base and introduce 545it? Any performance boost from the current 525it?
  • snagielsnagiel Posts: 750
    No idea about the engines, but I believe I read the wagons wouldn't come out until '05 models next year. By then, hopefully Shipo's prediction about the reenergized 6-cylinder engines will come true.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Check Autoweek's back page, better known as "But Wait, There's More..."

    They stole my idea. They have Dame Edna and the new 5 listed as "Seperated at Birth".

    I'll note that I did that photochop well before the issue went to press.

    -juice
  • I have to laugh everytime I see someone write how they don't like the design of a car, that is why they bought the "cooler" car that costs 1/2 the price.

    If I read another posting how someone thinks the new 5 series looks awful, so they bought an Acura TL or BMW 330, I am going to laugh myself out of the chair. Here is a little secret....we know you bought the Acura because you couldn't afford the 5 series!

    Let's not kid ourselves boys. For the same price you'd be taking the 5 series. I just put a deposit down on one this weekend...I will have the first shipment when it comes in late September. Guess I will be seeing a lot of guys drooling from those "cool" 330's and TL's!

    However, I will be the first to admit that had I had more money I would of bought a Z8. But you won't see me saying the 5 series is sweeter then the Z8...I don't kid myself!
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, well I for one don't like the new 5-Series, I saw one in Paris two weeks ago, and if anything, I like it even less now. I am so glad that I went out and bought a new/old (E39) 5-Series for nominally the same money as the new/new (E60) one. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Interestingly, BMW did not show the new 5 at the NY show. I was there last Friday. They did have an Alpina roadster.

    -juice
  • chrism124chrism124 Posts: 133
    "If I read another posting how someone thinks the new 5 series looks awful, so they bought an Acura TL or BMW 330, I am going to laugh myself out of the chair. Here is a little secret....we know you bought the Acura because you couldn't afford the 5 series!"

    I disagree with your statement. I currently have a 02 530i but based on the pictures that I have seen on the E60 5-series, I would look at other options for my next car. Some of those option being Audi A6, CPO M5, CPO 540i-6 or a new 330i. Could I afford a new E60? Yes. Is price the reason for not picking the E60? No. Rather it would be styling.

    Regards,
    Chris M
  • Those of you who are set in their ways for the old 5 series styling must realize how fast their sales are decling. Why...cause they are tired looking and stale.

    May I point out that both the Z4 and 7 series are outselling their predecessors. I am positive the new 5 series will too.

    I really don't know how car "enthuiasts" can base their dismissal on a picture alone. Chris, take a good look at a pic of an A6 and tell me it looks great based on the pic...looks more like a box on wheels. I like the A6 but after Audi's mechanical problems in the 80's I am suprised they were able to stay afloat.

    I talked myself out of the Z4 when it came out, because I have a Z3..and didn't want there to be a sweeter version. Chris I am afraid you maybe doing the same thing.

    I don't know the price of the A6 in the US, but in Canada it is $20,000 less the 530 and is not considered in the same class.
  • Shippo "well I for one don't like the new 5-Series, I saw one in Paris two weeks ago".

    Curious how you saw one when they are starting production in months? I was in Great Britain and in France not much longer than a week ago on business and I even went to a dealership in Paris...they did not have any yet.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    All car manufacturers run "Test Mules" for many months prior to the start of actual production. When I lived in the Montvale/Woodcliff Lake area of northern New Jersey, I routinely saw new Mercedes-Benz and BMW mules as early as 6 months prior to the start of production. Not to jump the gun any further, but when I worked for MBUSA, we had prototypes of the (then) new W210 E-Class as early as late 1995 (we did not start driving them undisguised until about June 1996); it wasn't released until the fall of 1996.

    Did I see a test mule? I would bet money on it. If you check around, you will find that there are pictures all over the internet of the new 5-Series being tested in southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and at least one (picture that is) that I saw from France.

    Another item; if you check the "Infiniti G35 Coupe" discussion, message number 67, dated 10-June-2002, you will find a post that I made with a link to pictures that I took of actual G35 Coupes. While I have no idea of when they went into production, the discussions of the time indicated that the G35 Coupe wouldn't be in production for at least 3 to 6 months.

    Did I see a new E60? Yes. Do I like it? No. Do I wish I had my camera handy? Yes.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • zhangqjzhangqj Posts: 15
    Shipo

    How long would it take for us to hear you say "that styling of new 5 series is growing on me ...."?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Aren't you off about a year on the W210 E-Class? It went on sale in late 1995 for the 1996 model year. You mean 1994 is when you all had one right?

    M
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmmm, well I was there during both years, and for some reason my mind says 1995/1996, however, it seems the facts say otherwise. Oops! ;-)

    Thanks for the "Heads Up".

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    outselling their predecessors

    That's not a tough enough standard. Do they have more market share then their predecessors when they were brand new? That would actually mean something.

    The A6 a box on wheels? It's the opposite, far more rounded and stylish than anything in its class. Nothing boxy about it. The Avants look just as good.

    -juice
  • fiddofiddo Posts: 2
    I had read various sites in the past that discussed all wheel drive availability on the 2004 5-Series. I live in the snow belt and I would really like this feature but find the 330xi to be a little too small. Any knowledge of if and when the 5-Series may have all wheel drive would be greatly appreciated.
  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    this new 5 is a nice design...except....why does the front look so much like a peasant Grand Am/Prix? Not surprising since the Z4's grille and headlights were lifted from a LeSabre. The hood and the trunk are too long also, what's the deal, are 70's car proportions coming back? Shorten the hood, lengthen the greenhouse, and enlarge the freaking doors.

    And why the horizontal dash? Not real 'cockpit' like. Don't much care for the "NFL referee instant replay viewing station" in the middle of the dash.

    Whatever happened to a driver oriented interior? This thing is starting to take on the look of a late 70's early 80's Buick.
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    Useless comparisons by all means. If you cannot identify a BMW when you see one...

    Isn't the front grille telling enough? You cannot mistake it for any other car. Even the Z4 has this oh so unique grille design. Copied by many, never equalled.

    Why, oh why are people so reluctant to change?
  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    Z4 = Le Sabre.
  • bmwdougbmwdoug Posts: 248
    Fact: The new 7 series is outselling its predecessor. Fact: When the 7 series changed body styles, everyone yelped, and whined.
    Fact: The predictions of the 7 Series' demise due to the new styling were WRONG
    Fact: The new 7 series has caught on with the public.

    The above will hold true for the new 5 series as well. It is going to be a great car. And, it will always be a BMW! I can't wait to see one in person. I hope I am able to purchase one. I am going to look into European Delivery to see if I can swing one. Does anyone know what the ED price will be for the new 04?
  • 330iii330iii Posts: 71
    Does anyone know when the last 03 5-series and the first 04's will be produced? I'm considering an 03 530i with sp.
This discussion has been closed.