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1960's Pontiacs

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,748
    those were actually fairly rare. By then most GTOs were automatics, particularly 'verts (mine was a ragtop). I don't have stats but I know that the vast majority of 60's musclecars were bought with juice boxes and 2bbl carbs.

    If it was really about performance you got the pillared coupe with few options on it not related to speed (these were the rarest).

    Damn, I'm going to miss this board!

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • carnut4carnut4 Posts: 574
    had the 383 with the big Chrysler 4speed, manual steering and brakes. Now that car took some effort to drive, even being an intermediate. The way that 4speed shifted, I think it might've been quicker in the quarter mile with a Torqueflite. If I had that same car now, I'd want it with a Torqueflite and power steering.
    Damn I'm gonna miss this board?
    Isn't there a way we could save it?
  • ndancendance Posts: 323
    is a funny thing. There were a bunch of models which were 4 speed only for one thing...personally, I've never owned an American high performance car with an automatic and have hit only a few when shopping...OTOH, I don't doubt that most GM A-bodies (especially Cutlass/422/Skylark/GS) have automatic transmissions.

    As to saving the board, I'm all for it too. The problem with having older car discussions on the other boards is that some numbnuts is always (I mean *always*) going to chime in about how well their Kia (or BMW, or whatever) does something better than the car being discussed. The average person has real difficulty talking about concepts in the abstract rather than bringing their own situation into the mix.
  • ndancendance Posts: 323
    I've never owned a Chrysler muscle car (always Chevrolet or Ford, never could hang with that goofy starter), but...*man*...those shifters are great honkin' things in RR's and their brethren. The 'Coyote Duster' is pretty cool, though.
  • rea98drea98d Posts: 982
    Carnut, remember what would be considered an intermediate in 1965 would probably be considered full-sized in 2003.

    And it's been said before, but I'll say it again:

    "Damn, I'm gonna miss this board!
    Isn't there a way we could save it?"
  • wq59bwq59b Posts: 61
    >>"I had a four speed '69 GTO... those were actually fairly rare."<<

    1969 GTOs manual trans installations actually were 44% (both 3- and 4-speed), and if you 'pull out' just the GTO convertibles, 36% had manuals. Thats not rare at all.

    In other musclecars- yes; manuals were much more infrequent, to the generally accepted point of being rare (the Buick GS is probably a good candidate here).

    The long throws of the column-shifted 3-on-the-tree probably negate much of the gearing/rear ratio advantage. My buddy had a 3-on-the-tree '53 Merc I drove a bunch- not easy to speed shift: your hand traveled almost 2 feet with each shift. Maybe by the late 60s they shifted quicker/shorter in general.

    I guess I haven't been here long enough to know: what 'ends' a discussion board... what's being referred to above???
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    Go to the Classic Cars discussion main page (showing all the classic car topics). At the top of the page, you'll see in red letters that Edmund's is shutting down the Classic Car discussions.
  • wq59bwq59b Posts: 61
    I see it now. Great- a civilized board with a bunch of knowledgible people having interesting discussions. Yea- that needs to go. I guess any reason behind it is inconsequential at this point.

    Anyone have any potential future congregation spots?
  • blh7068blh7068 Posts: 376
    "I had a four speed '69 GTO... those were actually fairly rare."

    A guy in my Pontiac club has a 69 Judge 4 speed RA 3...always brings home a trophy.
  • chris396chris396 Posts: 53
    I drove a Charger RT with a pistol grip 4-speed. It was like shifting a truck. The throws were very long.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2408211911
    This one will sell for $30,000+ as the reserve has already been met. This one has most of the goodies in that it's a 4-speed convertible.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2408239660
    This one is at $16,200 which is pretty strong for a hardtop - albeit a nice one as far as I can tell.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2407998242
    4-speed hardtop (currently at $8,100) that doesn't look as nice.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    ...looks great and has some nice 'luxury' options, but I certainly *hate* aftermarket speakers in the front doors at this price, and I'm not too fond of the overspray on that ID plate. Nice car, though.
  • I had some work done on the Throttle (TPS and IAC) now the 1988 vehicle runs poor. Especially in Idle or pulling out from a stop. Then it shifts at the wrong speed. (2nd gear is +40 MPH, 3rd at about 70MPH) These shifting points gradually settle down to the normal speeds if I continue to drive. However if I turn of the car and let it sit for overnight or more than a few hours the problem comes right back. I was reading that the Throttle stop has to be adjusted if work was done on that area. Does anybody know how? Another symptom is the car will run fine at highway speed. I can drive it for hours at 55-65 MPH but when I stop and turn off the engine then try to start it again it sometimes does not turn over. I get real knocking, bucking and dies trying to get up to speed. I did the TPS adjustment myself with a voltmeter. (It was way off) Some drivability improvement was seen. Now I am trying to see if the same idiots who installed the TPS got the cable messed up. Oh yes, it has Air, Automatic and less than 100 thousand miles on the engine.
  • Hi there, I'm new but you seem to know your stuff.

    I just picked up a '74 Nova with some Pontiac rims on it. The original steels were rusted out...

    Could you please tell me where these wheels most likely came from?

    Here is the ebay page. If you scroll down there's a picture of the wheels.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290137663928&- ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019

    Any help is appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Robert
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,694
    I imagine that was a pretty common Pontiac wheel for several years, so it's hard to tell, but there was the Pontiac Ventura version of the Nova, that would be my guess (emphasis on guess!).
  • Hey, thanks for the response. I now know that they're rally II's. What I don't know is if they put out different versions of those wheels. Either way, thanks!
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,142
    I'm not positive, but I think the Rally 2 came out in 1968 on Pontiacs. The big cars used a 5-on-5" bolt pattern, while compacts and intermediates used a 5-on-4.75" bolt pattern.

    If those are 14" rims, they most likely came off a Firebird or maybe a '68-72 Tempest/LeMans, or a Ventura like Texases said. If it's a 15" rim, then most likely it came from a '73-77 LeMans

    I'm not sure when the Rally 2 was finally phased out, but I know I've seen 80's Bonneviles (the RWD G-body model),Grand Prixes, and Parisiennes with them. Pontiac started offering a Snowflake Rally around 1976-77 and another style called the Honeycomb, and I think it was around that timeframe that the Rally 2 started to lose its popularity.

    I think they're sharp looking wheels. I have a '76 Grand LeMans with Rally 2's, and I want to get a set for my '67 Catalina convertible. Just been too lazy/cheap to get motivated on that project! :blush:
  • Awesome. Thanks man. This forum is so cool. They're wrapped in Winston Californian I's.
    P215/75R15. So must be the '73-'77 LeMans then. How much do you think I can get for 'em? They're not that great condition. A little rust, and a couple of the emblems are missing, but all the ring covers (?) are there. Tread's pretty good for what its worth.

    Thank you very much for your help.

    Robert
    Northridge, CA
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,205
    Remember that 1969 Catalina convertible we saw at Macungie with the messed-up Endura nose? How would you fix that and does anybody make aftermarket Endura noses? I'm always worried about those filler panels on my 1989 Cadillac Brougham but fortunately there are aftermarket sources for them. I'm sure you've seen how awful a Caddy looks when those filler panels go bad! Vomitrocious!
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,694
    Take a look at what they're going for on Ebay.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,142
    but I saw a set of 4 Pontiac Rally 2's in the big bolt pattern (full-size cars) for sale at, of all places, the Mopar Nationals at Carlisle PA. The seller was asking $300 for the set, which included the trim rings and center caps. Can't remember if the chrome acorn lugs were included or not.

    They're actually pretty hard to come by in the big bolt pattern (5" spacing), but in the small bolt pattern (4.75") they're pretty common.

    Oh, as for what cars they went on, I almost forgot but at some point the Firebird/Trans Am went to 15" wheels, so I guess they could've come off one of those. I wonder if the Ventura/Nova ever went to a 15" rim, or if it stayed 14" through to the end?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,332
    Andre, the latest issue of "Collectible Automobile" has an article entitled "Pontiac's 1973-'77 'Colonnade' LeMans."
  • berriberri Posts: 4,270
    I agree, the Bonnies, Catalina's and the smaller LeMans all looked great in 65/66. Personally, I think it was GM's best lookers for those years except for the 66 Toronado. Bill Mitchell was at his peak in the mid sixties like Virgil Exner was over at Mopar 10 years prior.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,142
    Andre, the latest issue of "Collectible Automobile" has an article entitled "Pontiac's 1973-'77 'Colonnade' LeMans."

    Yeah, funny story about that. About two weeks ago, when we had a hot spell, I made the mistake of driving my '76 LeMans to work. I had to work late that day, and didn't get out until after 6. Well, it had gotten up to around 96 degrees that day. The LeMans started, but a bit reluctantly. I had to make a run to the liquor store, and a little voice in my head told me to take the LeMans home first, and then drive something else to the liquor store. I have to pass by the house on my way to the liquor store, so it wouldn't have been out of the way.

    Well, I didn't listen to that little voice, but should have! Made it to the liquor store okay, but once I got the car loaded up, it wouldn't start back up! So I had a friend come get me and the precious cargo and take me home. Once I got home, I went through the mail, saw the Collectible Automobile. I thought it was a bit ironic to be reading an article about the '73-77 LeMans, after just having been stranded by one! :sick:

    Luckily, it did start back up two hours later, when we went back out there. So I'm guessing it was a heat-soak problem with the starter, possibly combined with the battery getting hot. That car does get pretty hot under the hood, although it's never actually overheated, or even gotten to the point that it triggers the temperature warning light.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,142
    Personally, I think it was GM's best lookers for those years except for the 66 Toronado.

    I just saw a '66 Toronado for sale yesterday, at a car show in Macungie PA. It was white, looked rust free, had a pretty nice burgundy interior. Power windows and seat. A/C "needed a recharge", The paint needed a bit of touch-up here and there, but overall the car was presentable. Seller was asking $7200, but then said he'd take $6K. It also looked pretty good under the hood, with everything being fairly tidy for a 40+ year old car.

    I gotta admit, I was bit tempted. These would have a 425 V-8, right? I've always admired the first-gen Toronado, at least up through 1970...I didn't like that final year with the exposed headlights that were inset a bit too far.

    Oh, on the subject of Pontiacs, I drove my '67 Catalina to that show, probably around 400 miles round trip. No real issues to report, although Saturday morning, sitting in traffic for about 5 minutes, and after already having been run for about 90 miles, the temperature light came on. Oh, and this morning coming home it rained, and I had a little water come in around the top of the windshield. MPG on the first fill-up was only about 12.8 mpg, but about 1/3 of that tank had been me driving the car locally, to work, etc, with the other 2/3 being the trip up to Harrisburg. Next fillup, which was running from the H-burg area out to Macungie and back, came out to about 14.2 mpg. That was mostly highway, although we did spend some time in local car show traffic, idling around on the show field, etc. Final leg of the trip, filling up near H-burg, hopping on the highway, and then punching it a bit once the rain cleared and the road dried up, and then filling up just before gettig home, I managed 15.3 mpg. That 15.3 actually impressed me, since I got it over 80 mph on some occasions, whereas on the 14.2 mpg leg, I was driving pretty gently.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Once you get the mass of a 60s car going, mileage tends to improve a lot. It's the stop and go of moving 2 tons, along with the inefficient carburetor systems and 2 or 3 speed transmissions, that kill you. That's also true of modern cars, except that they are lighter (generally), shift more intelligently and precisely insert fuel into the engine.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,142
    Once you get the mass of a 60s car going, mileage tends to improve a lot. It's the stop and go of moving 2 tons, along with the inefficient carburetor systems and 2 or 3 speed transmissions, that kill you.

    Kinda reminds me of an old movie called "The Big Bus" about, well, a big bus! It was a disaster spoof that came out about 4 years before such things were made fashionable by "Airplane", about the world's first non-stop nuclear powered bus trip from New York to Denver. Well at one point, the driver is testing the aerodynamics of this giant bus, by flooring it out on the highway. The bus starts shuddering and shaking, and shockwave it makes knocks over vegetable stands, blows fat ladies dresses up in the air, and shatters the windows in VW Bugs, etc. At the climax the driver is shouting "88, 89, 90! No wind resistance!! We're breaking wind at 90!"

    And similarly, my Catalina does seem happier at higher speeds. I've noticed that it has a particular aversion to speeds of around 55 mph...it just seems sluggish and held back, and an awful resonance comes from the exhaust that's headache-inducing. But get up to around 70-75 mph, and it gets quieter. It almost seems to hunker down a bit more, and hold the road better, giving the illusion of better handling, if not necessarily the reality. And at 70-75 if I step on it, it seems to take off faster than it does at say, 55-60.
  • potter660potter660 Posts: 11
    edited December 2011
    Through the 1950s and into the 1960s, only the high-end luxury cars offered automatic transmission as standard equipment along with power steering and power brakes including all Cadillacs along with the Buick Roadmaster/Electra 225 and Riviera, Oldsmobile 98 and Toronado at GM; along with all Lincolns since 1952 and Thunderbird beginning in 1961, and Chrysler's Imperial line and New Yorker series.

    Some exceptions to this rule were the less than top-line Buick Super and Century in the 50s and later Invictas. Buick did standardize automatics (but not power steering and brakes) on all its 1961 and 1962 big cars but reverted back to a 3-speed manual as standard on LeSabres and on Wildcats in 1964.

    Not until mid-1971 did automatic transmissions become universally standard equipment on full-sized cars. That was when GM made Turbo Hydra-matic standard on almost all its full-sized cars including the B-body Buick LeSabre and Centurion, Oldsmobile Delta 88, Pontiac Catalina, Bonneville and Grand Ville; and all big Chevrolets with V8 engines (including all Caprices and station wagons, plus all Impalas except the four-door sedan). Ford and Chrysler would follow by standardizing automatic transmissions on all full-sized cars in 1972.

    Exceptions were low-line big Chevys including the 6-cylinder Biscayne and Bel Air, which still had 3-speed manual transmissions standard for late 1971 and all of 1972 (plus a small handful of '72 Impala four-door sedans with sixes built early in the model year before the 6 was deleted from that line and all later '72 Impalas were V8-powered). The 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air four-door sedan with six-cylinder engine and three-speed column shift manual was the last stick shift big car offered by a U.S. automaker. The six and stick were dropped for 1974 and the last 74-75 Bel Airs were all V8-powered with Turbo Hydra-matic.
  • Up until the end of the 1970 model year, all full-sized Pontiacs regardless of series and engine came standard with column shift 3-speed manual transmissions along with manual steering and brakes. For the 1971 model year, the 3-on-the-tree was still standard on all B-body Wide-Trackers though power front disc brakes were now standard across the board and power steering was standard on Grand Villes and Bonnevilles, but remained optional on Catalinas and Catalina Broughams. Turbo Hydra-matic was optional on all series with all engines though base Catalina sedans and coupes with the standard 350 2-bbl V8 could also be had with a two-speed automatic (basically a Chevrolet Powerglide as the Buick-designed Super Turbine 300 was discontinued after 1969). In April, 1971, Turbo Hydra-matic became standard on all B-body Pontiacs with the base Catalinas also gaining the 400 2-barrel engine as standard and the 350 was dropped along with the 2-speed auto offered with it. Turbo Hydra-matic also became standard on the Grand Prix at the same time with the 3- and 4-speed manual trannies offered at the begining of the year dropped. All GPs had power disc brakes standard since 1970 and power steering became standard equipment at the start of the 1971 model year.
  • Catalina sedans and coupes came standard with cloth-and-Morrokide vinyl upholstery while convertibles and Safari wagons came with expanded Morrokide trims (optional on sedans and coupes most years). The Ventura option delivered a somewhat plusher cloth-and-Morrokide or all-Morrokide trimmings along with a deluxe steering wheel, upgraded door panels, full wheel covers and custom pedal trim plates similar to what was found in the longer-wheelbase Star Chief/Executive series (Catalinas could be had with a Decor Group option that added the deluxe steering wheel, full wheel covers, additional exterior trim and the custom pedal trim plates - the pedal trim actually came with all cars ordered with factory power brakes and Hydra-matic transmission in some years, regardless of whether the Decor Group was ordered). Don't think carpeted door panels were used in Star Chief/Executive models until about 1969 or 1970 - that was mostly reserved for Bonnevilles and Grand Prixs.

    Bonnevilles came with more luxurious cloth-and-Morrokide or all-Morrokide bench seats on sedans [with folding front center armrest] and coupes (all-Morrokide only on Safari wagons), or leather upholstery in convertibles (before 1967 and for 1968-69 when the Brougham option was ordered on the ragtop). The Bonnies also got carpeted lower door panels and wood trim on the instrument panel.

    Bonneville Brougham models came with even more luxurious cloth-and-Morrokide trims with notchback or Strato bench seats - and folding front and rear armrests, while the 68-69 Brougham convertibles had leather notchback bench seats. The Broughams also came with upgraded door panels with full-length built-in armrests that also housed the controls for the power windows (standard on Brougham beginning 1967). And all Brougham sedans and coupes had Cordova tops.

    Grand Prix (the full-sized jobs through 1968) came standard with bucket seats upholstered in expanded Morrokide and center console, along with door panels similar to the Bonneville Brougham that included power window switches on cars so equipped mounted in the front end of the armrest), wood trim on instrument panel and other trim similar to Bonnevilles. Starting in 1965, a notchback bench seat became a no-cost option along with cloth-and-Morrokide upholstery - while 66-68 bench-seat GPs used the Strato bench in both trims and seat backs similar to the same year GPs with Strato bucket seats.
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