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Forester Turbo in 1 year

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  • I was talking to a salesman at Palm Subaru in Gainesville, FL Saturday. I'd gone in just to say "Hello and welcome me to Gainesville" -- which they did. I was shown around the dealership and the salesman and I were talking about Legacys -- but Foresters came up. He said that SOA reps had been around the dealership very recently, and that he had been following them around peppering them with questions. He said that THEY said that a 2.5 turbo was coming for the Forester and that a 2.5 turbo was coming for the Legacy (Which is how we got on to it in the first place: I asked if a H-6 was coming for the Legacy, because we were looking at one,(and my wife was pawing the paint and asking if they had any GT's, and could she see one)and the salesman said no H-6, that turbos were the wave of the future; then he threw in that Subaru had tried repeatedly to get the B4 turbo past emissions qualification, but had failed, so the lessor H-4 turbo was qued up for future release here)
  • I was hoping I could get a new car by January but now I just don't know. I own a Saab Turbo with a 2.5 liter 4 and I love that engine (when it isn't self-destructing) but it's old and I don't like its winter performance.

    I like that CRV I drove yesterday but it didn't have the power I've become addicted to.

    I'd hate to spend the money on an LL Bean just to get decent power because I don't like the Outback wagon all that much.

    I admit the Premium Edition Forester comes in butt-ugly colors but I really like the sunroof and the Forester's updated interior. If only they came in that blue the XS does.

    But a 2.5 turbo Forester? Perhaps in different colors than the premium models? I would be in heaven.

    Heaven, it seems, will have to wait.

    How much will it cost do you think? A LOT more or just a little or even the same? Any ballpark ideas? If I put this off for 7 months or so I REALLY want to know because I dread another winter in my Saab.

    Thanks!
  • At this point everything is rumors.

    However, please let SOA know that many of us won't buy it if it is an automatic transmission, only. Just look at the sales ratio of the WRX manual vs. turbo. Besides, a turbo-auto combination is not that drivable: it accentuates the turbo lag and makes it difficult to maintain on boost. Even in a 2.5 turbo (although, admittedly, to a lesser degree). Lastly, a 2.5 automatic turbo negates all the fuel consumption advantages the turbo offers.

    If they don't make it clear what engine it is going to have, and what transmissions will be available by the beginning of next year, they are going to lose a lot of customers. I am not going to wait until summer or fall, just to find out there is no way I will buy that thing.

    - D
  • bluesubiebluesubie Posts: 3,497
    I'm sure an auto turbo would be tuned for better low-end torque than the WRX. Besides, the Japan/Euro new WRX's now have better low-end response than the current models.

    The fuel advantage of the manual WRX is about 1 mpg over the manual. :-)
    They would probably use the Sportshift (although that doesn't help the torque convertor issue).

    -Dennis
    manual WRX
  • Yes, low-end torque has also been improved on the JDM turbo Forester.

    Not sure if that 1mpg difference is a real world figure. You get the best mileage when accelerating with wide-open throttle at low rpm. That is basically impossible to do with an automatic transmission. At any rate, you also lose mileage because of the 2.5 vs. 2.0. The new 2.0l turbo in the JDM Forester turbo with "active valve control" supposedly gets better than 30mpg in some Japanese mixed duty cycle. Maybe they can work some magic, but I doubt you can get those figures from a 2.5 turbo. I guess you can't have it all.

    The current clutch and manual transmission is probably an issue, but then in some countries they sell the B4 with a manual transmission.

    - D
  • bluesubiebluesubie Posts: 3,497
    "Not sure if that 1mpg difference is a real world figure."
    Somewhere on the internet (epa.gov maybe?) I read how they measure mpg's. On a dyno at about 20 mph, but that's another topic. :-)

    edit - In case anyone is interested:
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#estimates
    "...The vehicles are driven by a professional driver under controlled laboratory conditions, on an instrument similar to a treadmill...
    ... The test used to determine the city fuel economy estimate simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 miles per hour (mph)... The maximum speed is 56 mph.
    [for highway]
    The test simulates a 10-mile trip and averages 48 mph... The maximum speed is 60 mph..."

    No wonder people complain when they don't get the mpg's listed on the sticker. :-)

    -Dennis
  • Looks like the new WRX ('04 US, '03 elsewhere) will have have AVCS:


    http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2002/11/27/FFX6WVF309D.html


    which makes me hopeful for the upcoming US Turbo Forester. The above article also mentions that the mileage of the *manual* WRX has been improved.


    - D

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Why auto only? 5 speed only would seem to make more sense.


    But my salesman said the same thing. 200hp and 2.5 liters. Legacy too, I hope. And Baja.


    Even with auto, if it has Shiftronic, I might consider it. Maybe I'm saying that because we just had a painful 10 hour drive that should have taken 5, and my knees are still sore.


    WRX is getting that newly tuned engine, plus clutch revisions. In a way, Subaru may choose to do auto only on the Forester because so many WRX owners do clutch drops that damage the drivetrain. I guarantee you that the WRX is the model with the most warranty claims and cost.


    -juice

  • lspivalspiva Posts: 49
    Here is the news regarding Forester Turbo. The information was copied from Consumer Guide.

    "...Though the redesigned (2003) Forester is still a newbie, a turbocharged version is widely rumored for the near future, perhaps even as an early-'04 entry. Subaru has sold a "blown" Forester for several years, but never in the U.S. If a turbo model does come here, and assuming it's similar to the European version (which it should be), look for around 250 hp and a like number of foot-pounds of torque from a retuned version of the hot Impreza WRX "flat-four." You can also expect "aero" lower-body skirts, a working air scoop on the hood, and an uprated suspension with 17-inch wheels and performance tires. The Forester Turbo should be good for 0-60 mph in well under 7 sec. Further out, facelift is being whispered for all 2006 Foresters..."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That implies 2.0l displacement, and the latest rumors call for a 2.5l. We'll see.

    I dunno if 17" wheels will make it to the US market, either.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    I've never found them to be very accurate. Half the the stuff they report is either wrong or half right.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    What's strange is that the Forester was their top rated small SUV for years, then they suddenly downgraded it. They actually lowered its scores.

    I have old and new issues of their buyer's guide (handy to get invoice prices for a particulary time and model year), and the review text is the same, so it doesn't make sense.

    -juice
  • leifleif Posts: 41
    For all of you who can't wait to see what subaru is going to do with the forester go out and test drive the Audi A4 1.8 turbo Avant 5-speed.
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    I actually did that in the fall of '99 and ended up with a Forester. I liked the A4 Avant but long-term maintenance costs and reputation for reliability led me to choose the Subaru. The money I've saved has gone to vacations and home improvement projects.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    While I like the A4 a lot, it's quite small. They made it a fastback, which is great for styling, but I think cargo space is even less than a WRX wagon, which is cheaper and faster. Luxury isn't important to me so that decision would be very easy.

    The Jetta wagon is probably a closer match for the cargo space of the Forester, since it's squared off. But those can get pricey and don't offer AWD here in the US.

    That pushes you up to a Passat 4Motion or an A6 Avant, both over $30 grand.

    I do think it's great that Audi offers AWD on all their models. Kudos to them. VW should, too.

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    juice: In terms of performance the WRX wagon holds its own against the A6 Avant as well.

    Ed
  • ben10ben10 Posts: 2
    If anyone can read japanese, how about checking this out? http://www.subaru.co.jp/forester/index.html

    There are lots of pictures here with foresters that have what looks like a turbo. That hood scoop looks an awful lot like the ones on the WRX to me. I think the styling on the models in the pictures is VERY nice.
  • I know they like marketing in English and all but the video, "The Mission", was filmed in the U.S. using American actors but a Japanese spec. Forester. Take a look though, kinda weird but curious:


    http://www.subaru.co.jp/forester/movie/menu_movie.html


    Thanks ben10!

  • My dealer just informed me today that they were notified by Subaru that the Forester turbo will be available by June---2.5!!
  • From: http://media.subaru.com/

    Contact: Contact: Rob Moran: 856-488-8615

    Larkin Hill: 310-763-0929
     
     Subaru of America, Inc.
    Subaru Plaza
    P.O. Box 6000
    Cherry Hill, NJ 08034-6000
    856.488.8500
    www.media.subaru.com

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

    CHICAGO, Feb. 12, 2003 – Subaru of America, Inc. today introduced Forester 2.5 XT, a new higher-performance version of its popular Forester sport-utility vehicle (insert PR Newswire photo link here). Powered by a 210-horsepower turbocharged and intercooled 2.5-liter boxer engine, Forester 2.5 XT adds a unique new driving element to the small SUV segment. As with all Subaru models, Forester 2.5 XT comes equipped exclusively with standard full-time All-Wheel Drive. The new model will arrive in Subaru showrooms this summer.

    Forester 2.5 XT is the first model in the small-SUV segment to emphasize such a high level of refined performance -- until now, sport-oriented models were reserved for the luxury SUV category. The increased performance in the 2.5 XT model enhances sporty driving while fully preserving the "Best of Both Worlds" crossover SUV design approach.

    Forester blends positive SUV attributes such as a command driving position and interior versatility with the comfort and excellent driving dynamics of a passenger car. A responsive 4-wheel independent suspension, variable-ratio power rack-and-pinion steering and 16-inch wheels and tires make Forester 2.5 XT equally adept at taming twisty back roads and absorbing the bumps of an off-pavement trail.

    Spirited Performance for Everyday Driving Pleasure

    The Forester 2.5 XT is powered by a 2.5-liter horizontally opposed engine that produces 210 horsepower at 5,600 RPM and 235 lb.-ft. of peak torque at just 3,600 RPM. The Subaru Active Valve Control System (AVCS) variable valve timing system enhances power at all engine speeds. The turbocharged engine offers outstanding performance at high altitudes, where changes in atmospheric pressure adversely affect the power output of naturally aspirated engines.

     

    The 2004 Forester 2.5 XT is available with a standard 5-speed manual transmission or an optional new 4-speed Direct Controlled Electronic Automatic Transmission. This advanced transmission electronically enhances shift operations for quicker, smoother shifts and better performance. Models equipped with the 5-speed manual transmission use the Subaru Hill Holder clutch, which helps make starting off on an incline easier and safer.

    The Forester 2.5 XT is equipped with 4-wheel disc brakes and -- like all Subaru models -- a sophisticated 4-channel / 4-sensor Anti-lock Brake System (ABS). The Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) feature enhances braking performance and stability through optimized brake force distribution between the front and rear wheels.

    Sophisticated and Sporty Design

    The functional hood scoop, body-color side cladding and a natural aluminum finish and body-color mounts on the standard roof rails immediately identify the 2004 Forester 2.5 XT. The 2.5 XT is further distinguished from other Forester models by specific 6-spoke, 16-inch alloy wheels with 215/60R16 raised black letter tires, body-color door handles and a single-outlet chrome tailpipe.

    Safety Leadership

    The new-generation Forester achieved the highest possible rating ("good") for crashworthiness when subjected to a 40-mph frontal offset crash test by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), also earning the IIHS "best pick" designation. The first-generation Forester had also achieved these ratings. Subaru Forester meets all Federal passenger car safety standards.

    The standard array of Supplemental Restraint Systems (SRS) includes a dual-stage deployment passenger front airbag and front seat head/chest side impact airbags. Also standard are upper-trim head impact protection and front seatbelt pretensioners with force limiters. Front-seat active head restraints help minimize whiplash injury in a rear-end collision.

    Subaru of America, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. of Japan. Headquartered near Philadelphia, the company markets and distributes Subaru vehicles, parts and accessories through a network of nearly 600 franchised dealers across the United States.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Here is a PDF with a bunch of info:

    http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_chicago/subaru/info.pdf

    I'm very impressed, though there are some things that could have been even better:

    * no VTD
    * no Shiftronic for the auto
    * no 5 speed with the Premium package

    The first two would increase the price, so hopefully by not including those they can keep prices within $2 grand of the regular 2.5l models.

    But lots and lots of pluses:

    * major down-low torque
    * less lag
    * AVCS
    * black/gray interior looks nice
    * rims look better than those on the XS
    * extra guages standard

    This thing is gonna rule the small SUV segment, in terms of performance.

    -juice
  • I don't think anybody has wanted this car more than I. I've been waiting to buy a new car for over a year. I drove the old Forester and waited for the new model. Drove that and loved it except it's lacking cojones. I trusted the rumors and waited another winter for the turbo. I drive a Saab turbo now and love driving turbos but really want the AWD and more cargo space.

    It's exactly what I want except:

    1. The black interior! Gah! It's not always snow and ice around here. It will roast in summer.

    2. No manual with the permium package ?!?! What ARE they thinking?

    3. The engine is SO obviously de-tuned. I was hoping to at least match the 220hp of the L.L. Bean. My Saab has a 2.5 turbo and it cranks 240hp. I don't see 210 as exactly anemic but it could be much better.

    Are these deal breakers? I doubt it. But it must come in some color other than black. I hate driving an oven. I will make a point to test drive it on a sweltering day.
  • Agree with you on the interior color. Solution: get a brighter-colored after-market leather (and sunroof, if you want). That way, you make your own premium package to your choice and liking.

    I think the hp is listed as such to avoid drawing attention away from the H6 and the non-STi WRX. The torque is more important: the 0-60 in 6.1s says it all. I had hoped for 6.9, so I am just blown away.

    - D
  • bluesubiebluesubie Posts: 3,497
    I've read comments that this engine is even de-tuned for the STi. :-)
    Not surprising since the Japanese have 2.0's putting out ~300 h.p. Yeah, it's definitely torquey though.

    -Dennis
  • I am planning to purchase a new auto this summer, so I am definitely in the market for this awesome little Subie...and am very excited about it! Just one thing...has anyone heard about potential price for the XT and XS-T (i.e., premium) models? I was curious as to how much of a premium they're going to be charging for the turbo...
  • Dawn,

    From the brochure it looks like all turbos are based on the XS in terms of packaging, with optional premium package (moonroof, and leather) available for the automatic. There are a few other things extra that add to the price (rear spoiler, 7speaker system, modified gauges). I don’t know if there is a consensus in the board about the pricing, but my guess is a street price of $1,500 more than the equivalent XS for the turbo, $500 for the higher value of the redesigned engine (new block, new pistons, new cam, and AVCS), and $500 for the above extras and styling enhancements.

    For example, the lowest priced one would be the manual w/o premium package. The typical street price of the manual XS with $200 of options (air filter, cargo net, armrest extension, wheel locks) is $22,000 (see Edmunds’ TMV). So, you should end up with $24,500 (MSRP: $26,200) including destination charge.

    Perhaps I am a little optimistic, but I think those could be realistic street prices a few weeks after release (when the initial euphoria has slowed down). Add ~$800 for an automatic transmission and $1,600 or so for the premium package with leather.

    - D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Jason: there's a lot of gray mixed in the interior too, I like the two-tone. You could add aftermarket gray leather.

    And 210hp means affordable insurance, 235 lb-ft mean serious performance. Subaru is estimating 6.1 seconds to 60, that's not quick enough for ya? :-)

    -juice
  • My loan/lease is up on my '99 Forester later this year, and I've been thinking about getting a small-to-mid size SUV with a little more muscle than my Forester. I believe I've just found it! I'm going to be in downtown Chicago tomorrow for a business meeting, and I might just have to sneak into the Auto Show to peek at this baby.

    -Bob Cronin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Go see it, I think they have a black one and a silver one. Did you see the pix in the Subaru Crew Photo Gallery?

    -juice
  • Do you mean the photos from www.chicagoautoshow.com ?

    Yep. I'm also not crazy about a black leather interior. However, the dealer in Chicago where I bought my '99 Forester typically has a local shop do the leather seats - so I know I could at least get different color seats.
This discussion has been closed.