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Hybrid vs Diesel

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  • "And, furthermore, even toyota says that most users can't expect to get the EPA figures, and several reviewers have gotten significantly better than the E320's EPA numbers, so much so that observed mileage has been the same."

    There are Prius drivers with light foot on gas got about 80MPG. Also, it is not fair to compare Prius winter mpg to warmer spring E320 CDI mpg. E320 diesel's combined 32mpg isn't impressive if you look at RX400h combined 34.5mpg. HSD will have superior response and mid range power delivery than diesel. Only if they make a diesel hybrid that boosts passing power......

    Dennis
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    My question about who was surveyed was rhetorical. It's irrelevant. The point to the comment was that I can't BELIEVE that ANY % of people actually think that we'd have a nuclear car in 6 years. wow. Talk about out of touch. That is so ludicrous that I don't even know how to react. 2% of 1000 people, that's 20 people. scary. It's clear that this is not a smart bunch (even though it's probably representative of the general public).

    Plus the question can be taken a number of different ways.

    "What will most likely power vehicles in 2010?" can mean:
    1. Based on 2010 car sales, cars with which fuel will sell the most?
    2. Which fuels will be available to power vehicles?
    3. Of the cars on the road in 2010, which fuel will be the most prominent?
  • I wonder what that other 2% is. Human power? =D

    Dennis
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    "Mr. Fusion" from Back to the Future! :D It's closer than you think........
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,863
    >> fair to compare Prius winter mpg to warmer spring E320 CDI mpg. E320 diesel's combined 32mpg isn't impressive if you look at RX400h combined 34.5mpg<<

    I believe that the E320 review listed real world mileage, whereas the RX400h is a hypothetical release of EPA by Toyota. I bet the RX gets less than the E320 under normal useage.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    ruking:
    "it will be interesting to see your long term history"
    __I keep my all my cars 10 years, at that time I'll have about 160km. I had the same concerns so I bought the highest warranty of 7yr/70K b2b & 10yr/150k battery. Battery technology $$ generally go down.
    I paid about 3.5K over its sister Civic EX, which is not nearly as nice.
    "I have driven the Prius"
    __I've not driven one either. Toyota didn't have one. Rick Reese an Insight gamer has one and gets around 80MPG.
    Admitted this is not the "norm" and neither is my HCH MPG. Only a few folks play this game.
    "It would be interesting to see what you can do with it" (diesel)
    __Thanks. Give any gamer an accruate clear to read FCD and you'll see great results no matter what fuel. (Gas, diesel, nuclear, anti-matter etc)
    Wayne, Rick and others are good enough not to require FCD. I still need one.

    gagrice:
    "Does it require Premium Unleaded as the Prius does?"
    __HCH burns regular (not)leaded 87 octane fuel.
    I'd HATE to pump in those extra $$.
    "I will be interested to see your long term impression of the hybrid civic."
    ___Me too! So far I rate it 9 out of 10 "stars".
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,167
    1. Per mile scheduled maintenance costs is right around .01 cents per mile. (Oil filter changes, air filter, brakes,fuel filter, brake fluid, tires, cabin filter and timing belt change allowance)

    2. Fuel costs are whatever the price of gal of fuel/ 45-60 mph.

    3. In my case, I am right around .06 cents per mile total operating costs.

    My projected time to hit 100 k miles or 160 km is 3.5 3.8 years.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Thanks.
    Oil, oil filter and tires are covered by the dealer for as long as I own the vehicle.
    HCH has a real-to-God chain, not belt.
    Not sure what my average CPM would be.
    I do know that I won't be getting any speeding tickets bumping up insurance! :-)
    Steve
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    you have convinced me to try out the Civic Hybrid when they have them available.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,167
    For sure, the comparison will be with the Civic. I compared the Prius against the Corolla and even with the less mpg, the Corolla was more cost effective.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    My VW TDI has leather interior, heated seats, sunroof, Electronic Stability Program, Audio system with separate amp. for the same price as a Honda Civic Hybrid. Mileage is similar to HCH. Fuel cost is $0.37 less per gallon for diesel compared to gasoline.
    Diesel makes more sense to me than hybrid at this time when comparing cost and available features and performance.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Posts: 186
    Actually here (Northern Indiana) Diesel is 49 cents less per gallon of Regular unleaded. ($1.59 Diesel; $2.08 Regular; $2.28 Premium) So, if it is true that the Prius needs Premium Unleaded, then I am paying 69 cents less per gallon than the Prius owners. Sure, I only get 45mpg in mixed driving, but 69 cents!!
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Just paid $2.03 per gallon to top off my '04 Prius. As I was pumping I noticed diesel at 1.79/gallon! I can't see why VW isn't selling more TDI's in parts of the country that allow it. Anyone know why? Can it be that people are leary of VW reliability? I had two Audis in the past few years and never had any problems. Perhaps people really have a negative perception of diesels? Whatever the reason, the TDI is a wonderful choice. I also like the fact that VW lets you buy ESP for less than $300! All Asian/American car manufacturers should follow suit and let consumers buy this safety option without having to spend a ton of money.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    I think most people simply aren't aware of it. Nine out of ten people on the street don't know VW even has a diesel, and many of the ones who do associate it with the old, slow, smoky, noisy cars.

    I suppose the question is, why isn't VW promoting it more?

    I agree about ESP. I wouldn't get a car without it. You might not use it for 20 years, then it'll save your life.

    The base jetta/golf aren't particularly cheap, but they are full-featured ( abs, heated mirrors, side airbags, etc) , have superb safety, and drive like much more expensive vehicles.

    dave
  • Simple, diesel does not have much passing power since diesel fuel burn slower than gasoline. Gas electric hybrids offer high torque and even more passing power than gas engine cars.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    I'm not sure which diesel vehicles you are comparing to gas engine vehicles. I can tell you for a fact that our new Ford 6.0 diesel 1 ton trucks blow the socks off of our gas powered trucks. And use 1/3 less fuel in the process. That is from a dead stop or passing 50-70 mph. They also far outpull the gas engines. our company will never buy another gas engine truck. Just no reason to...
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    Based on what I've seen, they're selling quite well. VW just plain doesn't ship very many here. I think they only build about 10% TDI's for the US market and that's it. Maybe it has to do with manufacturing and the european demand for them. The TDI motors come from germany.

    My neighbors have been looking for a wagon and it look like they're going to have to place an order. No dealers within 200 miles have any in stock.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    You got any numbers to prove these performance specs you're always using? I've not read a single review of a hybrid that stated it had really strong passing power. Adequate is the word I've most read. The one I drove didn't stand out as a barn-burner either. Granted my TDI has a slight power boost which anyone with $200 can get as well. Any $200 mods available for the Prius that will knock a couple seconds off the performance and not change mpg?
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I agree, my Cummins has serious passing power. In fact, these diesel trucks don't really come alive until the higher speeds. I can hit the pedal in 6th gear and leave a lot of folks in the dust. Even with a 15,000# trailer flapping along behind me, highway acceleration is way beyond any gasser with even half the weight on. We've got some big hills around here and even the biggest hill I can pull 70mph with a downshift to 5th gear. My Tahoe pulling 5,000# requires 2nd gear and slows to 60mph on the same hills.

    My brother has a newer 6.0L Ford and we had a little race between it and my Tahoe. I was about two car lengths on him until about 50mph, then he shot passed me like I was barely moving. He's driving a 1500# heavier vehicle as well.

    I think if we were talking normally aspirated diesel motors, usbseawolf2000 might have a point. But once the turbo winds up, these diesels do a mighty fine job.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,167
    ..."Simple, diesel does not have much passing power since diesel fuel burn slower than gasoline. Gas electric hybrids offer high torque and even more passing power than gas engine cars."... "

    Simply, the above quote might be arm chair analysis.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I found some numbers. Car and driver tested the Prius back in February:

    40mph-60mph = 7.9 seconds
    40mph-70mph = 9.7 seconds

    Call it 40-65mph = 8.8 seconds

    According to some independent data on TDI's, I've found acceleration runs in 3rd gear (of a manual tranny, stock TDI) from 40 to 65mph in around 6 to 6.5 seconds. Lightly modified TDI's were turning the same speeds in 5 to 5.5 seconds. Heavily modified TDI's are turning it in 3.5 seconds. Additionally, these were not full-bore runs since they were limited to 3rd gear for consistent comparison to other TDI's.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,167
    Thanks for the post. For me the hybrid vs diesel is a false comparison in that I think that if the hybrid technology does the job it is supposed to do then a diesel hybrid is a good mating which would be better than a unleaded gas hybrid mating.

    The government gave the big three 1.5B in R&D to come up with a "clean sheet" higher mpg performer and each of the big three came up with diesels and they got like 98-99 mpg.

    This is probably a gross simplification, but the hybrid attempts to utilize electric motors that simply have HUGE instant on power and more importantly torque at a very low rpm range. So that would account for why the thunderous 295 # ft of torque is really not noticeable during any 0-60 acceleration run. The next real question or tech problem is the gas or diesel for that matter is not used 100% of the time to "motivate" So the question can now become what % of "non motivational" time can the diesel or gas engine be shut off. The % would be reflective of the actual fuel savings. Also at low rpm 0-1200 you need neither gas or diesel. So again the fuel savings will be a formula of % on and off. The other problem is how much actual weight does the hybrid add to the vehicle and what is the lost mpg due to its weight. So for example if you could mate a TDI engine in the Honda Insight (less weight anyway) you might get even more mph due to the weight loss.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    What fuel is Nascar using?
    Alcohol?
    Gasoline?
    I'm not really sure.
    If diesel had all this extra passing power in reserve pulling 1.5Klb trailers at high rpm then why don't the pro racers use it?
    Are you using your Cummins truck as your day to day commuter vehicle?
    If you're a contract/construction worker etc I could see that but not if like most of us who commute to an office setting.
    Are you saying that my same Civic fitted with diesel can pull a medium size Coleman trailer...say 1.7Klb radically passing people driving on the mountain hills and still get 58-65MPG?
    My Hybird can not tow anything but that is my commuter car and not a primary family vehicle or truck so towing doesn't matter.
    Thanks
    Steve
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,167
    So how many trailers do you see pro racers pulling?

    Not to mention the fact they get (if lucky) 4 mpg on a race and almost all engines are torn down after a race? So what do you think the octane rating is on union 76 fuel?

    Point being there is a Grand Canyon Chasm difference between racing and normal everyday driving.

    Most of towing implies a frame that is suitable for towing. Not looking at the specifications I am guessing that the Honda Civic is lacking in the frame department.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "What fuel is Nascar using?"

    high-octane gasoline

    "If diesel had all this extra passing power in reserve pulling 1.5Klb trailers at high rpm then why don't the pro racers use it?"

    Well, for one thing, NASCAR has lots and lots of rules. You have to have naturally-aspirated pushrod engines between 350 and 358ci's, a coil distributor, bore between 4.2 and 4.23 ( or something like that ). They get about 750HP out of 5.7L. Pretty good, but there are turbo saab 2.0L motors putting out more, as well as turbo supras!

    If you could drop a hopped-up modern 5.7L turbodiesel in one of those cars, it'd do quite well. Not to mention, a lot of other gassers.

    What he was doing was responding to the claim that diesel won't pass as quickly as a hybrid because the fuel burns slow. That's just a silly claim, really. Passing power is a simple power/weight issue. Towing is another topic entirely.

    dave
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Thanks for the Nascar clarity.

    So what you are saying that the folks who modify stock cars for the Saturday night drag strip/local races are missing out because they use high octane gasoline and not diesel?
    Thanks
    Steve
  • pusterracingpusterracing Posts: 186
    "What fuel is Nascar using?"

    Just to answer this question...Sunoco Supreme Racing Gasoline @ 112 Octane. Sunoco is the "Official" gas of Nascar, so all cars use the same fuel. The cars get on average 4-6 mpg. And can pull 9500rpm no problems.

    Why don't they use diesels? Because Nascar mandates every component on the vehicles (going back 50+ years) and when the sport was conceived, they used the stock powerplants in the cars....which were gas. So as the sport has evolved over the years, Nascar has stuck with the gas engine, even though nothing on the car is "factory stock" by any stretch of the imagination these days.

    Just thought I'd answer that particular question.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    What fuel is Nascar using?
    Alcohol?
    Gasoline?
    I'm not really sure.
    If diesel had all this extra passing power in reserve pulling 1.5Klb trailers at high rpm then why don't the pro racers use it?


    Some racers use diesel. Rally cars/endurance cars etc. Seems that most here are discussing the economiccs and performance aspects of these choices. I believe there's been several land speed records set with diesel (and jetA too, hmmmm). Last time I checked, NASCAR still had 4 barrel carbs strapped to the top of their motors, wheeeee!

    Are you using your Cummins truck as your day to day commuter vehicle?

    Heck no, my Jetta TDI is my daily driver. I have two diesel pickups that are used for our stables. Very rare they don't have 8,000# - 16,000# hooked to them. The '01 has over 130k miles and the '03 just passed 40k.

    Are you saying that my same Civic fitted with diesel can pull a medium size Coleman trailer...say 1.7Klb radically passing people driving on the mountain hills and still get 58-65MPG?

    I doubt it. But it would do it better and more effciently than whatever's currently powering your civic. A Jetta TDI is rated to tow 1500# and from what I've gathered it will do so fairly effortless and still gets in the 40's.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,167
    YUP! Kind of makes you wonder why they are not using hybrids! :)
  • pusterracingpusterracing Posts: 186
    Didn't mean to just restate what Dave posted...I didn't type fast enough...his wasn't up there when I started. :)
This discussion has been closed.