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Hybrid vs Diesel

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  • "Do you have an engineering argument?"

    Modern Diesels need extra catalysts(s) and filters to comply with current emission standards. The extra cost will come in the form of low sulfer fuel, electronic air management, and emission after-treatments. To meet future standards, they don't have technology yet. Cost for diesel will keep going up to reduce emission further.

    Diesel engine has evolve to optimal cylinder shape to reduce internal emission with the help of computer modeling. It still need external filtering to catch polluting particles. What do you do with the end of life catalysts and filters? Can you recycle them?

    "You might as well say that hybrids are in danger, because pollution laws will soon account for battery manufacture and disposal."

    First, let me clear up the vague use of "battery". There are many types of batteries. The most polluting types are lead-acid, Nickel Cadmium(Ni-CD)and button(Mercury) batteries. Lead, Cadmium and Mercury are heavy metal that pollutes the environment if they make contact with human directly or indirectly.

    Ni-Mh battery used in Prius is much more environmental friendly. Nickel and Metal Hydride are not heavy metal or toxic. Nickel can be found in 5 cents literally. There is still the need to recycle Ni-Mh batteries because Nickel recovered from recycling pays for itself! This is not true for other batteries.

    Electric cars requires 90KW battery to have decent driving range. Prius Ni-Mh battery is only 1.5KW(1/60th) battery size. So, 60 Prius would have the same amount of batteries as one electric car. Therefore, battery usage is not much of a big issue. Even if all cars become hybrids, it should still be manageable. Battery technology is improving and becoming more environmental friendly with Li-ion and Li-po.

    image

    It does pollute more to manufacture a hybrid than a gas only car but a hybrid makes it up with lower pollution from driving. Old cars will be the most offending kinds. Therefore, the faster we switch to hybrids, the lower overall environment pollution impact will be.

    image

    After driving Prius for 12,500 miles(20,000km), it breaks even with a traditional car. That's about a year of driving for most of us.

    Why stop at battery recyclibility? Why not recycling the whole car? Prius is easy to dismentle and 90% recycleable.

    Dennis
  • Diesels are more "mature" in Europe. This is how Prius come into diesel perspective.

    image.

    Prius use the least fuel, even less than small diesel cars.

    image.

    Diesel produces much more CO2 and NOx emission than Prius.

    "The new Prius is a stunning blend of futuristic design and technology that brings D-segment performance, comfort and space with B-class economy to today’s motorists."

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    All, you've done is repeat your argument ( diesels will cost more ) without any backing whatsoever, then compare the prius to an inefficnent gas car.

    As to the question of filters, there are two approaches. 3m has a 100,000+ mile filter, ( not sure of cost ), and cheaper filters that are recyclable can go from 30-50K. Not nearly so bad as, say, oil filters, and surely never even close to battery costs. And, if you want to be exact, you could say that it compensates for having no spark plugs to remove and dispose of.

    Besides, i think the truly killer aspect is the ability to run on biodiesel in various blends. Vegetable oil is safe ( won't burn in a crash ) nonpolluting in manufacture, transport, and burn, and is carbon-neutral.

    Anyhoo, here's another interesting prototype. 94mpg!

    http://www.autointell.com/News-2002/October-2002/October-2002-1/O- - ctober-02-02-p5.htm

    I really feel like you're more interested in promoting toyota than in the environment or fuel economy.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Where did these come from? What "current diesel" is it being compared to? Comparing a prius to a hypothetical diesel shows nothing.

    dave
  • "All, you've done is repeat your argument ( diesels will cost more ) without any backing whatsoever"

    I guess you only read what you want to read. I'll repeat one last time. "The extra cost will come in the form of low sulfer fuel, electronic air management, and emission after-treatments." Refining low sulfer diesel cost more. Adding electronic parts to manage air flow add complexity and cost more. Catalysts and filters for after-treatment cost more. Being green isn't free. Hybrids already have the green technology today but Diesel doesn't.

    "Besides, i think the truly killer aspect is the ability to run on biodiesel in various blends"

    Who cares? Gas engine can also use renewable Ethanol fuel. Hybrids can even use diesel engine, any kind of turbine engine, or even fuel cell stack. Your position in this issue is that one head is better than two. Mine is, two heads are better than one.

    "I really feel like you're more interested in promoting toyota than in the environment or fuel economy"

    I am promoting Hybrid Synergy Drive which can increase fuel economy, lower emission, increase power delivery and increase response time. HSD does all of those without a compromise. I've also argue against Honda's IMA hybrid design and favored Ford's Escape Hybrid. Bottom line, I believe that HSD is the way of the future.

    "Where did these come from? What "current diesel" is it being compared to? Comparing a prius to a hypothetical diesel shows nothing"

    They are from Toyota Motor Europe. If you have conflicting data, please post them as I am not close-mind and not bias toward Toyota. Those diesel numbers probably are the average of corresponding classes, thus valid.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "I guess you only read what you want to read. I'll repeat one last time."

    Wow, repeating a baseless claim again. That's a sure-fire debate tactic. Maybe you could try it in all caps next time.

    "The extra cost will come in the form of low sulfer fuel, electronic air management, and emission after-treatments." Refining low sulfer diesel cost more. Adding electronic parts to manage air flow add complexity and cost more. Catalysts and filters for after-treatment cost more."

    Hm. And do hybrids have no extra parts as compared to a gas engine? What are the relative costs of the batteries ( that will need to be replaced ) extra computer, extra electric motor, versus extra electronic and air control?

    Furthermore, are you aware that diesel cars are already significantly cheaper than the hybrid that toyota is selling at a loss? So even if your complete speculation was accurate, that wouldn't make diesel more expensive.

    "Who cares? Gas engine can also use renewable Ethanol fuel. "

    Well, omitting the points i made about that, which i assume you can't respond to as you deleted them, ethanol currently takes up as much energy in its manufacture as it provides, while biodiesel results in a high percentage net gain of energy.

    "They are from Toyota Motor Europe. If you have conflicting data"

    A P.R. graph with no axis labels and no point labels is not "data." What is the weight, drag coefficient, and performance of the compared vehicles?

    dave
  • "And do hybrids have no extra parts as compared to a gas engine? What are the relative costs of the batteries ( that will need to be replaced ) extra computer, extra electric motor, versus extra electronic and air control?"

    HSD does not have an alternator and starter but it does have two powerful electric motors. HSD does not have a dedicated hardware for a transmission and torque converter but do have non-moving power control unit. HSD has a small battery for "caching" but do no need to carry so much fuel.

    In plain english, HSD is mechanically simpler than a traditional gas or diesel cars. The complexity is in the electricity and transistors since everything is going "computerize". The strong point of diesel used to be it's simplicity. Modern diesel is getting complicated with 30,000 PSI direct injection and electronic air management with computers, all for the name of lower emission. That defeats the advantage of diesel. Why not go hybrid and take advantage of synergy between combustion and electric motor power? Well, that will be a hybrid then.

    I am not sure how much Prius 1.5KW replacement battery will cost. 1.5KW of AA Ni-Mh rechargables can be bought for $560-$600 today. It shows how much mass production can lower the price of Ni-Mh. Who knows how much consumer rechargable batteries and hybrid batteries will cost in 10 years. It will be safe to say that the price should merge or at least in that direction.

    "Furthermore, are you aware that diesel cars are already significantly cheaper than the hybrid that toyota is selling at a loss? So even if your complete speculation was accurate, that wouldn't make diesel more expensive."

    LOL. I see your basis of your argument. You are thinking short-term. All I said was that over time, Diesel will become more expensive while hybrids will drop in price. BTW, am I suppose to feel bad that Toyota is loosing money now? As with many business, they are thinking long-term. We have VW Jetta TDI and Toyota Prius with MSRP about 20K. The last time I checked, Toyota is making more money than VW.

    "biodiesel results in a high percentage net gain of energy. "

    Well, at a cost! It will cost $40-50 a barrel to produce biodiesel. You have to consider the energy consumed in the manufacture of fertilizers and pesticides to produce the crops plus energy used in cultivating, harvesting, transporting and processing of the crop. Plus at colder temperature, viscosity increase so much that it becomes impractical.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    > Modern diesel is getting complicated with 30,000 PSI direct injection and electronic air management with computers, all for the name of lower emission. That defeats the advantage of diesel.

    You mean, the advantage of a 4000 pounds sub-7-second-to-60 getting the same observed mileage as a slow, light, prius?

    "LOL. I see your basis of your argument. You are thinking short-term. All I said was that over time, Diesel will become more expensive while hybrids will drop in price. BTW, am I suppose to feel bad that Toyota is loosing money now?"

    Well, i thought that by putting two and two together, you might figure out that your argument that the price increase you speculate for emissions standards you speculate might not make already-significantly-more-expensive hybrids more cost effective than diesel, as you claim.

    > We have VW Jetta TDI and Toyota Prius with MSRP about 20K.

    Jetta=17K, unsubsidized, and you can get it for less.

    > Well, at a cost! It will cost $40-50 a barrel to produce biodiesel. You have to
    > consider the energy consumed in the manufacture of fertilizers and pesticides to
    > produce the crops plus energy used in cultivating, harvesting, transporting and
    > processing of the crop.

    True, it's not 100% free energy. But when you're saying "so what, i can use ethanol" a net-energy-loss fuel, it matters a lot.

    dave
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,225
    Who cares? Gas engine can also use renewable Ethanol fuel

    I read the manual on our 5.3L flex-fuel Tahoe for operating with 80% ethanol. Forget about it. Lower power, more fuel consumption, cold start issues. Corn states requiring ethanol blends are getting less fuel economy. Sounds like the wave of the future (looking for my rolls eyes icon....)

    re: biodiesel "Plus at colder temperature, viscosity increase so much that it becomes impractical."

    Maybe if you're not mixing it properly. We left a mason jar filled with properly blended/treated biodiesel out in 0F weather this winter. Viscosity was equal to the warm diesel kept in the garage for comparison. Some fuel suppliers don't properly mix fuel and therefore it's not a useful resource (where is that rolls eyes icon??!!). If anything performance with biodiesel is equal to standard diesel. Better in my experience. Fuel mileage stays the same too.

    I'll take a hybrid diesel running on bio any day of the week. Just don't shrink the diesel motor to an underpowered state.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Posts: 186
    "I am not sure how much Prius 1.5KW replacement battery will cost. 1.5KW of AA Ni-Mh rechargables can be bought for $560-$600 today.

    Well, here is what I found on that subject....

    "While there has been no recurring problems with earlier Prius batteries, the question of replacement cost was raised. It was estimated that the replacement cost for an entire battery pack is something around $3000."-West Coast press unveiling of the new 2004 Prius, -Bruce Meland

    While talking about which is more expensive.....I paid 21K for my 04 Jetta GLS TDI out the door TTT included. The Toyota Dealer wanted 25K for the Prius and wasn't coming off of the price, I told him I thought they started around 19K and his answer was..."It's all about supply and demand, these cars are in demand, that's why we can charge more than the 'sticker price' which is just the manufacturers suggested retail anyway". I thanked him for helping me make my decision on which car to buy. Since they didn't have one in stock, and I'm not paying above sticker for a car, I bought the Jetta and can't be any happier with my purchase.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    With the news of the Jeep Liberty diesel, I've been doing much research. This thread is loaded with good info.

    To put in my $0.02. I've decided on diesel for now (I won't be in the market for another couple years though). Why? There are a few reasons. Because I keep my cars for a long time. A diesel engine will last. Hybrid is too new to know how long the electric motor system will last. I can also work on my diesel myself and it is easier to find a good diesel mechanic than hybrid. Diesel is also known to have great resale, even with high mileage. I will be using it to tow small things like my ATV/trailer. That screams for a diesel's torque.

    From my perspective, the mpg difference between hybrid and diesel is irrelevant. The mpg difference between a "traditional" gas engine to a fuel efficient alternative is what is important.
  • mindaugusmindaugus Posts: 20
    I was in Austria last summer and they are already using biodiesel in stations all over the country. They have the system just fine and I'm sure we could do it even better. Cost debate is a joke, no way hybrids are cheaper in the long or short run. I don't buy a car every couple years and no way I'd buy a used hybrid. One thing you have to shell out $3000 every time for a battery? Ridiculous. Diesels can run 300,000 miles before you have to replace such an important component. The hybrid batteries are risky in the long run and should only last warranty, then you have a useless heap of junk. Plus the most important factor farfignuggen! Why drive this smooth electrical box, I wanna feel like I'm driving. In fun factor diesels will always win.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,225
    Biodiesel is available here, it's just a bit pricey in some spots. A mix of biodiesel (2%) is quite common. 20% isn't hard to find either. Of course you can always make your own if you're so inclined. Or use waste vegetable oil. Possibilities are endless, really. My neighbor is some sore of chemical engineer and he's going to start making his own biodiesel. I've not really researched it too hard myself. I spend about $900 per year to travel 30,000 miles so it's not exactly worth the effort IMHO. Diesel was about $.22/gallon cheaper than 87 octane this morning at the truckstops.

    I'm not overly scared of the battery deal on the hybrids. If they were to warranty them for the life of the vehicle they might sell even faster, as it's obviously a concern for a lot of folks. At least the ones that really drive a lot and keep their vehicles for a long time. If I only drove 10k-15k miles per year like most folks, I would likely never buy any of the current crop of hybrids. I get tired of vehicles after a few years. This means most of our personal vehicles turn-over with 40k-70k miles. My business vehicles get the miles piled on, but I still turn them every couple years. Bad habit, but I'm not fiscally responsible when it comes to cars, I like them too much and like to mix it up. This TDI hasn't even begun to bore me, though. Might keep it awhile.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    mindaugus - I forgot about the driving fun factor. Another point for diesel!

    sebring95 - remember that some of us are on eco-states (NY, CA, ME, etc). I don't know where NY stands with biodiesel. But I know that I can't buy a TDI VW here until 2006 when the sulphur content drops to <15ppm.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,225
    What I find unfortuneate is that these states will hold a small 50mpg car to one standard, but you can buy a diesel pickup or gas guzzling car/minivan/truck on any corner because the pollution is ok for them. A Honda Odyssey belches the same smog-forming pollution as a Jetta diesel, and it also puts out more than double the greenhouse gas. But that's ok, just don't be driving around in those dirty cars!
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    "A Honda Odyssey belches the same smog-forming pollution as a Jetta diesel"

    The Jetta can't get nearly as low NOx emissions as the Honda in this example, and in addition it puffs out what is basically soot everywhere it goes. These are the two reasons that the CARB states have banned diesels for a while. In 2007 when the low sulfur diesel is fully available, NOx emissions should naturally come down as a result, which solves one half of that problem.

    Of course, that refers only to smog-forming emissions. You are correct that the Honda here is pushing out a lot more greenhouse emissions. However, it is the greenhouse emissions that the federal government is suing California over: it says that California isn't allowed to regulate those, only smog-forming emissions. So the feds are basically saying "yeah, control smog, but we forbid you to take a hand in reducing gas guzzlers that increase global warming."

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,225
    According to the epa.gov website, the Odyssey emits 20.8 - 25 pounds of smog-forming pollutants per 15,000 miles. Same as the Jetta diesel. Same as quite a few other cars, although there are a lot of variables that aren't identified. I'm not so sure any of those are available in cali. Looks like their maps are goofy because there's another Odysssey that puts out around 12.5 pounds per 15,000 miles and it claims it's NOT sold in Cali.

    I wouldn't be surprised if VW could get these cars to qualify for those states, but it's probably not worth it because they seem intent on only selling a small number of them every year. They always sell out their allotment and leave it go at that. Personally doesn't bother me since the resale on my car is much better than any gasser I could have bought at this point.

    The HO Cummins that was available in '03 in the Dodges was not compliant with the carb states. The '04.5 models have been reworked and put out more power, are quieter, and are emissions compliant in all states. Of course the profits and number of trucks the sell here obviously make it worth it to figure out the upgrades.

    It's all money. If the manufacturers knew they could sell these 50mpg cars like hot-cakes (and make money doing so like they do heavy trucks, suv's, etc.) they'd beat the emissions requirements.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    No way VW could get them certified for 50 states; the high sulfer content in US diesel fuel makes them completely incompatible with the higher CARB regulations.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    You are looking at the engine. You should be looking at the wheel. Lower gear will give more torque to the wheel but how fast can you go on that gear? That's why you need higher gear to go faster, thus more horsepower at the wheel.

    Horsepower at wheel = Horsepower at Crank &#150; Horsepower &#147;Lost in Translation&#148;

    Assume no loss, you&#146;ve got the same HP at the wheel as you would have at the crank. At 30 mph, gear 1 will provide more thrust (more &#147;torque multiplication&#148;) than in gear 4. This also means that the lower gear is providing more horsepower (crank, hence wheel), at that speed. Remember, horsepower is not just an indicator of speed it is also an indicator of thrust.
  • Na, the thrust is the torque. Hp is the amount of work(RPM) that torque does. Higher gear can work longer with less thrust(torque). Without higher gear, you can not do any more work when you hit the redline.

    Dennis
This discussion has been closed.