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Hybrid vs Diesel

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Sounds like you are happy with the Civic. Does it require Premium Unleaded as the Prius does? I think we are on the same wavelength wanting a decent vehicle with decent mileage. I don't think you can compare the hybrids of today with the diesel trucks that keep slipping into this discussion. The best of them still only get about 22 MPG. That is much better than 13 MPG but when you are looking for 50 plus MPG it will have to be a smaller vehicle, at least for the foreseeable future. I will be interested to see your long term impression of the hybrid civic.
  • "Horsepower is the end all. Unless Prius has better power to weight ratio going uphill compared to Camry, it won't perform as well"

    I also favor more horsepower. But power delivery rate(thrust with time) is also important. So, you should also look at thrust to weight ratio across a range of speed. Prius has better thrust/weight ratio than 2.4l camry from about 30mph to 50mph. Camry has better thrust/weight ratio from about 70mph to 100mph. If you are climbing hills at around 40mph, Prius might do a better job. If you climb hills at 70 or 80mph then, Camry will have the advantage. I hope that explains where power delivery rate shines and more horsepower shines.

    Traditional ICE only cars are bloated with horsepower. The reason is to achieve faster power output rate. Again, if a hybrid drive train double the power delivery rate, we will have to redefine how much horsepower we actually need to achieve the most difficult driving tasks with higher power output rate.

    I am also curious how a hybrid diesel would synergize. I mean, the two are pretty similar in power output. High torque at low rpm but low horsepower. The cause of diesel low hp is due to low achievable RPM. For electric, low hp is due to low torque at high RPM. Maybe there is a design can unite the two natures and create a synergy effect like current gas electric HSD.

    I read about Toyota traded HSD license with diesel patents from Ford. I am sure Toyota is toying around with diesel electric for cars. There are Toyota diesel electric trucks in Japan. I believe they are serial hybrid design. Maybe, those Ford diesel patents might give us some clue.

    Dennis
  • How does it perform from 30-50mph? 60-80mph? 1/4 mile time? If it is so refine, would it match that of gas engine cars? Just curious.

    Those diesel emission numbers are impressive. They really need to work on NOx though. For reference, in 1997, the classic Prius was first to comfortably meet EURO IV, J-ULEV and AT-PZEV emission regulations at the same time. 2004 Prius beats it by far.

    Dennis

    P.S: Nevermind, i found your other post.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,231
    Diesel E320 combined mileage is 32mpg. No where near of Prius. The emission is also night and day.

    I'm not sure I could have typed that with a straight face. C'mon, who in the world wants to compare an E-class benz with a Prius?? We're talking a big heavy luxury car that can average 32mpg and perform on-par with vehicles that average 10mpg less. When they can get the prius to accelerate from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds (or any other performance range you want) and still get 40,50,60mpg then we can start comparing the two. Even without all-wheel drive, the E-320 CRD is very close to replacing my A6 4.2 that's lucky to eek out 20mpg.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Are you suggesting 1997 Prius met AT-PZEV status first? Honda claims that the Civic Hybrid was the first hybrid vehicle to achieve AT-PZEV!

    Traditional ICE only cars are bloated with horsepower.

    Not sure what you mean by that, but your assumptions regarding horsepower are bad. And no matter waht you want to calculate (power to ratio, g's (that I already did to show you how it relates to horsepower) etc., power rules. Peak power? No, but mean power developed across the board. More power, better performance, that is the bottom line.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    "Hmmm... Solar power cars could be as popular as Diesel by 2010."

    And apparently we'll also have nuclear powered cars by 2010, too? I can't put any faith in research that shows a nuclear powered vehicle will be on the road in less than 6 years. Do 14% of people actually think that solar power will "most likely" propel vehicles in 2010? wow. Who did they survey?

    Emissions are not night and day. There is 1 component preventing them from being sold in eco-states and that is sulphur. US diesel fuel needs to catch up with Europe in sulphur content and that will happen in 2006.

    Plus you're comparing the mpg of a powerful Mercedes with a Prius. apples vs. oranges. Try comparing hybrid to diesel when the 2 cars have similar performance. I could make the same analogy comparing a Prius to a moped. Makes the Prius seem like a gas guzzler.

    I'm only defending truth and a fair comparison here. I think there's room for both. Kudos to people who drive the Prius. I can't. I need AWD where I live. I care about what a car looks like (and IMHO, the Prius is butt-ugly). I need a practical car, which means (in part) that I have to be able to do the work on it myself.
  • "C'mon, who in the world wants to compare an E-class benz with a Prius??

    Exactly. Someone posted a review of E320 which compare mpg to Prius and claimed that diesel E320 can get the same fuel economy as Prius. First I pointed out that E320 is twice expensive. That response was to show the real mpg numbers. Please read previous messages to get the whole picture.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "I'm not sure I could have typed that with a straight face. C'mon, who in the world wants to compare an E-class benz with a Prius?? We're talking a big heavy luxury car that can average 32mpg and perform on-par with vehicles that average 10mpg less."

    And, furthermore, even toyota says that most users can't expect to get the EPA figures, and several reviewers have gotten significantly better than the E320's EPA numbers, so much so that observed mileage has been the same. I just think that's awfully impressive.

    "Even without all-wheel drive, the E-320 CRD is very close to replacing my A6 4.2 that's lucky to eek out 20mpg. "

    Envy, envy.

    dave
  • "Are you suggesting 1997 Prius met AT-PZEV status first?"

    No, I'll highlight the important part that you missed. In 1997, the classic Prius was first to comfortably meet EURO IV, J-ULEV and AT-PZEV emission regulations at the same time. HCH might be the fist to meet AT-PZEV but might or might not meet Japanese and Europe emission standards.

    Dennis
  • "Who did they survey?"

    Well check out the whole article. http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news006/

    Dennis
  • "And, furthermore, even toyota says that most users can't expect to get the EPA figures, and several reviewers have gotten significantly better than the E320's EPA numbers, so much so that observed mileage has been the same."

    There are Prius drivers with light foot on gas got about 80MPG. Also, it is not fair to compare Prius winter mpg to warmer spring E320 CDI mpg. E320 diesel's combined 32mpg isn't impressive if you look at RX400h combined 34.5mpg. HSD will have superior response and mid range power delivery than diesel. Only if they make a diesel hybrid that boosts passing power......

    Dennis
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    My question about who was surveyed was rhetorical. It's irrelevant. The point to the comment was that I can't BELIEVE that ANY % of people actually think that we'd have a nuclear car in 6 years. wow. Talk about out of touch. That is so ludicrous that I don't even know how to react. 2% of 1000 people, that's 20 people. scary. It's clear that this is not a smart bunch (even though it's probably representative of the general public).

    Plus the question can be taken a number of different ways.

    "What will most likely power vehicles in 2010?" can mean:
    1. Based on 2010 car sales, cars with which fuel will sell the most?
    2. Which fuels will be available to power vehicles?
    3. Of the cars on the road in 2010, which fuel will be the most prominent?
  • I wonder what that other 2% is. Human power? =D

    Dennis
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Posts: 72
    "Mr. Fusion" from Back to the Future! :D It's closer than you think........
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,788
    >> fair to compare Prius winter mpg to warmer spring E320 CDI mpg. E320 diesel's combined 32mpg isn't impressive if you look at RX400h combined 34.5mpg<<

    I believe that the E320 review listed real world mileage, whereas the RX400h is a hypothetical release of EPA by Toyota. I bet the RX gets less than the E320 under normal useage.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    ruking:
    "it will be interesting to see your long term history"
    __I keep my all my cars 10 years, at that time I'll have about 160km. I had the same concerns so I bought the highest warranty of 7yr/70K b2b & 10yr/150k battery. Battery technology $$ generally go down.
    I paid about 3.5K over its sister Civic EX, which is not nearly as nice.
    "I have driven the Prius"
    __I've not driven one either. Toyota didn't have one. Rick Reese an Insight gamer has one and gets around 80MPG.
    Admitted this is not the "norm" and neither is my HCH MPG. Only a few folks play this game.
    "It would be interesting to see what you can do with it" (diesel)
    __Thanks. Give any gamer an accruate clear to read FCD and you'll see great results no matter what fuel. (Gas, diesel, nuclear, anti-matter etc)
    Wayne, Rick and others are good enough not to require FCD. I still need one.

    gagrice:
    "Does it require Premium Unleaded as the Prius does?"
    __HCH burns regular (not)leaded 87 octane fuel.
    I'd HATE to pump in those extra $$.
    "I will be interested to see your long term impression of the hybrid civic."
    ___Me too! So far I rate it 9 out of 10 "stars".
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,702
    1. Per mile scheduled maintenance costs is right around .01 cents per mile. (Oil filter changes, air filter, brakes,fuel filter, brake fluid, tires, cabin filter and timing belt change allowance)

    2. Fuel costs are whatever the price of gal of fuel/ 45-60 mph.

    3. In my case, I am right around .06 cents per mile total operating costs.

    My projected time to hit 100 k miles or 160 km is 3.5 3.8 years.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Thanks.
    Oil, oil filter and tires are covered by the dealer for as long as I own the vehicle.
    HCH has a real-to-God chain, not belt.
    Not sure what my average CPM would be.
    I do know that I won't be getting any speeding tickets bumping up insurance! :-)
    Steve
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    you have convinced me to try out the Civic Hybrid when they have them available.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,702
    For sure, the comparison will be with the Civic. I compared the Prius against the Corolla and even with the less mpg, the Corolla was more cost effective.
This discussion has been closed.