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Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    This is my own personal bias, but I would be upset if my TDI advertized EPA ranges of 42/49 mpg routinely got what John 1701a got (47) or between 8-22% less than the advertised epa of 51 highway and 60 city. Since tests and Prius owners indicate 40-45 mpg, it is more like 22-33% less.

    Since I do get between 42-51, doing not much to nothing in the way of fuel conservation, :( I am cautiously thrilled.:( :) Just think if I really put on my fuel miser's cap!! ?? :)
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Posts: 471

    Thanks!

    You helped provide proof that the "cost per mile" analysis really doesn't have that much of a practical application when it comes to actual ownership.

    (Hint: Distance was a key component required to do those calculations.)

    JOHN


    Was that what you were trying to prove? If so, why? Because it's inconvenient to you when you try to advocate the case of hybrids over diesels.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > John1701a got (47)

    That was COLD weather only data!

    The EPA estimates all require WARM weather driving.

    And now that it is WARM, efficiency has close to 54 MPG.

    That is very clearly within the estimates.

    > Since tests and Prius owners indicate 40-45 mpg

    Once again, I am forced to point out the WRONG data is being quoted. Please stop using CLASSIC data to make the 2004 look bad!

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    I am not sure what is "classic" data and the context in which you use "classic" data!

    Again 54 mpg would be great but one of the questions you assiduously avoid is how you drive and under what conditions. Speed etc.

    My TDI is easily capable of 54 mpg but please look at my post about not wearing the fuel miser's cap. It is even capable of 60 plus mpg with a 42/49 epa rating.

    "Once again, I am forced to point out the WRONG data is being quoted. Please stop using CLASSIC data to make the 2004 look bad!"

    Once again let me point out that Toyota "Prius" has nothing to fear from me! I would fear the "Toyota Prius" owners" who are contemplating class action lawsuits because of this so called difference in actual mpg vs EPA rated mpg! :(
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > I am not sure what is "classic" data

    Haven't you noticed that the new Prius didn't exist before October of last year?

    That means absolutely no summer data is available yet, only stuff from the COLD months.

    You are quoting statistics from the older Prius, not the new one.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Again 54 mpg would be great but one of the questions you assiduously avoid is how you drive and under what conditions. Speed etc.

    It is impossible to summarize 15,000 miles of driving without being vague. So stop asking a question that can't be easily answered. But if you absolutely keep insisting... My driving is "mixed", a wide variety of speeds & temperatures.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    You seem to want to put the classic in the closet like it never happened. The EPA estimates of mileage were the same as for the 2004 Prius. Maybe if Toyota was a legitimate Auto maker they would upgrade all those "Classic Prius" cars to the 2004 standards. Or should all the people that bought them shut up and live with their poor choice?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > The EPA estimates of mileage were the same as for the 2004 Prius.

    NO !!!!

    The 2003 Prius has a MPG rating of 52/45.

    The 2004 Prius has a MPG rating of 60/51.

    Geez! No wonder the replies are so absurd and non-constructive, it appears as though some didn't even realize there was a major upgrade to Prius.

    > Maybe if Toyota was a legitimate Auto maker they would upgrade all those "Classic Prius" cars to the 2004 standards.

    Why?

    That comment is mind-boggling, it's like saying the original Hummer should be upgraded to the new H2 Hummer. Hello, the body isn't even the same.

    Needless to say, all value in these discussions has been lost.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    "You are quoting statistics from the older Prius, not the new one."

    You are incorrect here!

    As I have noted and you know, the 2003 is different from the redesigned 2004 model.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > You are incorrect here!

    Then you are intentionally misleading people, because there is no summer data available yet.

    Comparing annual or lifetime averages to cold-weather-only is clearlly inappropriate. Winter values are always lower than summer.

    What is your TDI cold-weather-only MPG average?

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    I was quoted by the Toyota dealer on the first Prius 2001 model, 60 mpg for city driving. I do not recall the highway estimate. The issue is the vehicle did not live up to the ratings. People were duped by over rated mileage estimates. The main reason for purchasing the car was to get good mileage. With the side issue of better emissions. I doubt that you would pay a premium for a vehicle that was 100% emission free if it had poor gas mileage. Why is it so hard to accept that the first of the hybrids were sold under false pretenses. That Toyota misled people about the mileage they would get with them.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Posts: 186
    "My repeated questions & requests are not being answered"

    Sounds like my repeated questions & request for real world cost of a Prius Hybrid. Not what it costs to fill one up with premium unleaded, what it costs to purchase one.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    Unfortunately the EPA tests are ancient and really should be modified. Toyota has NOTHING to do with the outcome of the tests. Do you think they provided a SUPER DUPER battery to skew the results? When I saw the EPA numbers I knew RIGHT away there was NO way I would achieve them. I estimated months before I took delivery that I would get 48 or so average and I am NOW besting that number since the warm weather has arrived in the NE.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    it's like saying the original Hummer should be upgraded to the new H2 Hummer

    You should stick to hybrids. No one with an original Hummer would even want a H2 Hummer. The original is twice the vehicle and more than twice the price. I think when the dust settles Toyota will be paying millions of dollars to Prius customers for false advertising.
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    I used to have an Audi Allroad with twin turbos. I know turbos definitely have a finite life. Anyone with a TDI care to estimate how expensive it is to replace the turbo. Any idea on MTBF??? Is it also true that the 2004 TDI requires very expensive special oil? I actually think that the maintenance costs for the first 100,000 miles are MORE in a TDI than in the '04 Prius. This is MERE speculation. Anyone care to comment?
  • pusterracingpusterracing Posts: 186
    "Is it also true that the 2004 TDI requires very expensive special oil"

    Dunno, mine (oil changes on an 04 GLS TDI) are $45 at my dealer...and I only need one every 10K miles...so if you (gassers) pay $20 for an oil change and need one every 3K miles...who is coming out on top? You (gassers) need 3 changes (ie $60) for every 1 (ie $45) that I need.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    EPA estimates may be faulty. But Toyota salesmen are telling customers they can get this wonderful mileage. I almost bought one in 2000 based on the salesman's figures and what was printed for the customers to make their buying decision on. The only thing as I have said in the past that stopped me from buying was my wife thought it was ugly and would not be seen in it. Personally I'm glad I wasn't the guinea pig. I would have been furious if I had realized after I bought it that I would be lucky to get 48 mpg or even less because my average drive is 2 or 3 miles to Home Depot, Costco or the grocery store. The salesman never said the mileage would be much lower unless you were commuting 19.3 miles each way or some such nonsense.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    We need a list of amazing hybrid feats/myths such as :
     EPA ratings for the old and new Prius are the same

     hybrids use premium fuel

     the traction battery needs to be replaced every xx years and is toxic

     car dealers were saints till hybrids came along
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    According to posts on this forum Toyota has sold the hybrid technology since 1997. They did not land on this shore until the middle of 2000. I would think that would be more than enough testing time to establish an accurate mileage estimate. When I bought my Suburban it stated on the window sticker 13 city 17 highway. Guess what that is what I get. Sometimes even a little better. I got no gripe with GM. If I buy a car that says 60 city 48 highway mpg. And I drive it only a few miles a day and over the course of several months I discover I am only getting 35-40 mpg(as many Prius owners are reporting) I am going to be upset. That is a pure case of false advertising. You can cover it up by saying the newer models are better or whatever you like. That does not change the facts in this whole debate. "CLASSIC PRIUS" owners were misled.....
  • "My TDI is easily capable of 54 mpg but please look at my post about not wearing the fuel miser's cap. It is even capable of 60 plus mpg with a 42/49 epa rating."

    image.

    Prius had been driven 967 miles with 85.7 mpg. The car is like a tool, it is up to the person how they use it.

    Dennis
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    Most cars are! Maybe they need to trade with the Prius owners who are PO'd about their 40-45 mpg figures.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    Overstating the capability of any product is false advertising. Toyota clearly gave the wrong impression to me and many people that actually bought into the hype. Ruking1 you have almost convinced me to go buy a VW TDI. Just not sure whether to get the Jetta wagon or Passat sedan. A dealer in Las Vegas has several of each.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    Sounds like a road trip is in order TO LAS VEGAS! :)

    Gee, I don't know what to tell you about deciding between TDI Jetta Wagon and or Passat. The Jetta Wagon will obviously get a tad better fuel mileage. I actually would like to test the Passat!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    Happy Hunting!!
  • "Anyone with a TDI care to estimate how expensive it is to replace the turbo."

    Maybe your best bet is on "insert diesel vehicle: Problems and Solutions" board and pick your favorite one. ;)

    If you worry about high pressure turbo currently available in US, think about modern diesel engines such as 2005 E320 CDI engine. From Automotive Engineering International magazine May issue:

    "The common-rail system features a load dependent,
    high-pressure rail that provides
    constant pressure of 23,000 psi (1600 bar)
    to all of the fuel injectors simultaneously
    and on demand. Mercedes points out that
    the common rail pumps out more than four
    times the pressure on the surface of the
    bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, and more
    than 10 times the pressure of a typical
    household pressure washer."

    My tire pressure is 33 PSI. 23,000 PSI sounds more dangerous to me than 200V battery and 500V drivetrain electrical system that is NOT even classified as "High Voltage".

    Dennis
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    After reading about some of the horror stories on the VW boards I am really glad I bought the Prius. I can't believe how many people are having problems with their VWs!! A cursory review of CR even shows tons of black dots. I am pissed... I thought the TDI was a good alternative. Oh well...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Not what it costs to fill one up with premium unleaded

    Why do people keep spreading the FALSE information that premium is required?

    Not only isn't it required, it isn't actually recommended.

    The system was specifically designed to work with 87 octane (85 in high altitudes).

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > I would think that would be more than enough testing time to establish an accurate mileage estimate.

    The EPA has been using the same testing procedures for 19 years.

    Why would they suddenly change them for a vehicle that was quota'd to only sell a very small number per year?

    And if they did, the entire purpose would be lost: for COMPARISON.

    > 35-40 mpg(as many Prius owners are reporting)

    The lie is getting worse. The average for CLASSIC is 45 MPG. Deal with it!

    Why are you intentionally ignoring those that even make me jealous? Some owners of the 2004 are reporting averages in the upper 50's. And the majority are reporting averages around 50 MPG.

    Where exactly are you getting your "facts"?

    > That is a pure case of false advertising.

    False what? You have absolutely no case. Would you like me to post the text of the window-sticker again? It doesn't support your claim at all.

    And if a saleperson misled a consumer, what does that have to do with an automaker? Dealers are stores, carrying a product from a specific supplier. The conduct of their employees is their responsibility, not who built the vehicle.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,862
    "The EPA has been using the same testing procedures for 19 years.

    Why would they suddenly change them for a vehicle that was quota'd to only sell a very small number per year?

    And if they did, the entire purpose would be lost: for COMPARISON."

    I would also agree with this! I read one article that quoted a Toyota Prius official as blaming the EPA testing or procedures for the "difference". Since they didn't go into the technical issues, the reasoning for the "blame" is unclear. Be that as it may I can only surmise that something unique to the gasser/hybrid may in Toyota's view merit special exemption or testing.

    I also do not see the Prius vs TDI Jetta/Beetle/Passat etc as an either or type of proposition or even necessarily an adversarial relationship. I have had 5 hrs of 2004 Prius cockpit time and actually like the vehicle. If anything it would have been far easier to just do a Prius in that I am a long time customer of my local Toyota dealership, sales repair, maintenance and brokering (6 Toyota's, not to mention referrals also). The dealership will literally send me home with anything I want to try at a min of overnight. I do however think that there seems to be a lot of resistance on the Prius owners side to an economic analysis. I can easily get the information from other sources, but I guess this is not the real reason for this Edmunds.com thread!?

    I say do the homework and let the chips fall where they may.
This discussion has been closed.