Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options

Hybrid vs Diesel

1…4041434546…54

Comments

  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Of course that's what I meant. The subject of the sentence is "Civic Hybrid" therefore I'm referring to a hybrid with a diesel engine.

     

    A Civic Hybrid with a diesel engine (like volkswagen's 60hp 4-cylinder), would get 70 miles per gallon on the highway... that's +20mpg over the gasoline version.

     

    troy
  • Options
    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Then it will cost and weigh a lot more than HCH. From weight point of view, 5-door Civic Diesel is 111 kg (about 250 lb) heavier than 5-door Civic (with 2.0-liter i-VTEC engine). A hybrid option similar to Accord's could add another 125 lb.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have two young kids, and I'm NOT going to put dirty diesel exhaust in their lungs.

     

    How about the safety of the children. They are at a much higher risk in the Civic than a Jetta or Golf or any other VW. The TDI just gives you comparable mileage with the added safety. The very comfortable Jetta Wagon gets 36/47 according to the EPA. Plus 34 ft of luggage space. I'm sure with a little effort you could find a station that sells BP ECD low sulfur diesel. Then it would be cleaner than the Non CARB HCH. Or better yet run B100 and be real clean and green

     

    http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Then the Civic Hybrid Diesel will cost and weigh a lot more than HCH(about 250 lb)"

     

    ...still less than the 900-1000 lb penalty of the Prius. Besides, I'm thinking long-term here. When gasoline/diesel = $5 a gallon, people will be willing to pay a little more to get 70 MPG.

     

    troy
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When gasoline/diesel = $5 a gallon, people will be willing to pay a little more to get 70 MPG.

     

    You left out an important part of the equation. Those that have diesel cars will have a second option that the gas cars will not have. Biodiesel will not be tied directly to the price of oil. According to the article posted a couple days ago on this thread, the average price for biodiesel in the USA is $1.79 per gallon. I can see the ships loaded with diesel cars when gas is $5 per gallon and biodiesel under 2 bucks. And hybrids, what's a hybrid? Oh, an overly complex piece of hardware that peaked out in 2005.
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"How about the safety of the children. They are at a much higher risk in the Civic than a Jetta or Golf or any other VW."-end quote

     

    IN GENERAL, people don't buy cars for safety reasons. If so, all the "unsafe" cars would never make it to the showroom. If so, the "Ford Exploder" would have gone away. SUVs would not be so popular if people knew how many rollovers killed people every day. Cars would have SAFETY RATINGS instead of EPA RATINGS on the window stickers. No one would go unseatbelted EVER, and ALL CARS would have side curtain airbags if people were clamoring for "safer cars."

     

    Part of the reason is that no person EVER thinks THEY will be in an accident, especially a severe one. EVERYONE thinks that happens to other people.

     

    I'm not going to make a decision to buy a car or not because one car has 4 stars and one car has 5 stars unless EVERY SINGLE OTHER CRITERIA I have chosen to use end up in a wash. And that's very unlikely to happen.

     

    Who do you know that selects "safety" as their number one or even number 5 criteria when car shopping? It's just not the normal way things are done.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Who do you know that selects "safety" as their number one or even number 5 criteria when car shopping? It's just not the normal way things are done.

     

    That is a true statement. I might add about the same amount of people give a hoot about emissions. They expect the government to see that the car they are buying is clean running. The only place I ever hear about emissions is here on Edmund's. I have never known anyone personally that said they were trying to decide on a car and emissions was even on the list. It is a lower priority than safety.
  • Options
    moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Is the exhaust form diesel passenger cars a carcinogen hazard? If it is, where is the information supporting this conclusion obtained from? The only info. I was able to locate was based on studies of commercial type trucks or school bus exhaust, not the passenger vehicle type of diesels.

    Looking at Asthma and cancer rates compared between North America and EU there appears to be no significant difference or in the case of Asthma, a higher rate in the USA. There are many, many factors involved here, however, the 40 to 60% of cars that are diesels in EU do not seem to correlate to higher cancer and asthma rates there.

    Is the risk of diesel a genuine one, or is it simply a false hysteria created by proponents of non-diesel technologies?
  • Options
    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Where do crash test rating come into play in this discussion? If you want to discuss it gagrice, let us do it in another thread. BTW, Civic and Jetta are identically rated in frontal/side crash tests (but look closely and Civic has lower risk of injury within the category).
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote moparbad-"Is the exhaust form diesel passenger cars a carcinogen hazard?"-end quote

     

    Ab-so-tive-ly Pos-O-Lute-Ly diesel exhaust from cars is a carcinogenic hazard also.

     

    Older diesel cars and diesel trucks use the same fuel and particulate filters, so the the exhuast is the same. PROPORTIONAL OF COURSE to the size of the engine I mean.

     

    BUT "clean" diesels in Europe and diesels engineered to use the "clean diesel" do emit LESS of the total exhaust, so they are SUPPOSEDLY safer, if you listen to the DIEsel Fan Club Members on this board.

     

    Only time and additional studies will tell about how "clean" CLEAN diesels really are.

     

    Only diesels that use Veggy Oil are clean enough for me though.....:)
  • Options
    SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    OK guys...let's not drive this discussion into the ground. Too many horses have already died a hundred deaths and now you are going off-topic. Take it to another thread (hey - create a new one).
  • Options
    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Comparing two markets isn't as simple as making a statement. Europe is high on diesels, but primarily due to fuel costs. 70% of the vehicles sold there are gasoline powered, however. And more importantly, European market is also about smaller displacement and smaller cars (gasoline or diesel).

     

    Does anybody know why Japanese market hasn't shown any interest in diesel power?
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "Mar. 30, 1998 In Japan, the Environmental Agency has released results of its first study on automobile exhaust by auto and fuel type.
    The results of the study indicate that diesel autos, which make up 18 % of the 63 million autos owned in Japan,account for 75 % of the 550,000 tons of NOx emitted by all autos each year. The diesel autos also account for 56 % of the hydrocarbons that are a factor in photochemical smog and 100 % of the particulate matter which, like NOx, is harmful to the lungs.

    The agency stated that trucks and other vehicles in areas with a high degree of pollution should be switched to low-polluting vehicles. Ordinary cargo vehicles and buses using diesel fuel emit more than 20 times the NOx per kilometre as gas-fuelled passenger cars and more than 50 times the volume per vehicle over the course of a year.
    The emissions volumes were based on 1994 conditions."

     

    Maybe they worry more about clean air since they are an island.
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    What is the % of CO from diesels?

     

    troy
  • Options
    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is another disengenuous aspect about the environmentalist/anti diesel position.

     

    It is a commonly repeated mantra that we should "lessen" the dependence on foreign/imported oil, you can put the oil from the middle east in that category also.

     

    Yet on the one hand domestic drilling for new resources is for all practical purposed shut down. This can be seen on one extreme as a USA environmental and economic health and safety abomination to the other extreme of heresy on the other. Diesel is almost totally pooh poohed, yet biodiesel can be processed from renewal grow able CROP resources (soybeans). It also can be locally processed, unlike the recommended fuel: unleaded gas which requires a HUGE refinery. Also curiously environmental forces also opposed expansion of old facilities AND construction of new facilies. Perhaps most USA folks do not know (because there are only 550,000 folks nowadays out of 290 million folks who are "FARMERS") but soybeans are one of the BIGGEST crop in the USA! Also if they are so opposed to diesel, they have taken no steps to ban home heating oil. Home heating oil as you probably can guess burns up to 24.7 during the winter months. (additives for portability make it #2 diesel.) And the home furnances do NOT have to meet the same by product regulation that a diesel car does.

     

    So if the environmentalists have their way they would BAN the very product that can in fact come to market DOMESTICALLY.

     

    So how much "DOMESTIC" oil/unleaded gas does the hybrid use?
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    to ban "biodiesel"

     

    Enviro wackos might want "dirty diesel" banned and for good reasons, but biodiesel is much cleaner. And Greener.
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The last paragraph of this little clip is the MOST interesting....

     

    "The morning began with the Motor Press Guild Keynote address given this year by Bernd Pischetsrieder, Chairman of Volkswagen. Mr. Pischetsrieder’s started out by saying that in his opinion the hydrogen economy was not a realistic solution to air pollution concerns. He also stated that having multiple alternative fuels is not good because it is not feasible for drivers to have to hunt around for different fuel sources such as CNG, Ethanol or Bio-diesel.

     

    He put forward the idea that we must look to existing infrastructure to provide the solution which he suggests will be the use of synthetic fuels made from Bio sources like soy beans, or by using the gas normally burned off from oil wells in a gas to liquid fuel process.

     

    He proposed diesel engines running on these synthetic fuels as the solution to CO2 reduction. Currently VW diesel engines don’t meet the strict California emissions standards but VW is committed to meeting the strict new standards taking effect in 2007.

     

    Mr. Pischetsrieder also said that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe for when this might be available to the public. He also said that they were working on an engine that behaved like a diesel at low revs and like a gas engine at higher revs, combining the best qualities of the diesel and the gas engine."

     

    The whole story is here:

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=796
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Mar. 30, 1998 In Japan, the Environmental Agency has released results that diesel autos, which make up 18 % of the 63 million autos owned in Japan, account for 75 % of the 550,000 tons of NOx emitted by all autos each year. The diesel autos also account for 56 % of the hydrocarbons that are a factor in photochemical smog and 100 % of the particulate matter

     

    .

    I repeat: What percent of CO comes from diesels? Also, 1998 is almost 10 years out-of-date. A lot has changed in just the last 10 years... like the Jetta changing from a "1=poor" to a "6=ULEV" rating at fueleconomy.gov. Plus no-sulfur diesel next year will raise that to a 9=SULEV.

     

    troy
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    the hand-slappers have closed the Jetta TDI/HCH forum, so we are here now for these discussions.

     

    It still boils down to the fact that TODAY, in the USA, the cleanest, most efficient cars you can buy are Hybrids (excepting the Civic GX, which is the cleanest burning ICE in the world). EPA says so, and they are the watchdogs.

     

    At some point in the future, clean diesels might make an inroad in the USA. But for now, the clean and efficient choice is clear:

     

    Hybrids.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    excepting the Civic GX, which is the cleanest burning ICE in the world

     

    You bring up an interesting point. In 1997 I was going to convert my Chevy truck to CNG or LNG. At the time it was about half the cost to run a vehicle. I did not do it because only one station in the area had it available. Now with many cars, cabs, buses and trucks burning CNG in San Diego, they have raised the price to where it is a break even cost with gasoline. I think that is the same reason they tax diesel at a higher rate. They don't want any technology to outweigh another. Look for some added tax on hybrids. Or maybe the mileage tax that Oregon is implementing.
  • Options
    yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    gagrice

     

    Honda & Fuelmaker has teamed up to make 'Phill' a small device which can compress household natural gas and fill the cylinder of a CNG vehicle.

     

    The device is coming out in Spring-2005. Seems the household gas costs $ 0.9 / gallon + some electricity cost which is used in compressing.

     

    So if you are waiting for CNG vehicle, time is nearing.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another exciting device is the HES II. A unit that heats your water, provides your home electricl needs and charges your hydrogen fuel cells from Natural Gas. Problem is they all use fossil fuel..... Hopefully at a slower rate.

     

    http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1002?mid=2004111652316&mime=asc- &archives=t
  • Options
    yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    HES-II : Thats great

     

    But first they should market Phill in large numbers.

     

    BTW, how are we getting hot water in townhomes

    and single family homes. The water is heated

    inside the house or in a centralized facility

    outside the house.
  • Options
    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    In my home, hot water comes out of a system that runs on CNG. HESII is supposed to replace that system and provide two additional facilities... electricity (as a generator) and compressed/purified hydrogen.

     

    Honda may be launching HESII to go with FCX much like it is with Phill and Civic GX. It will be interesting to see how much HES costs compared to regular water heater. Phill is expected to cost $2K (to be sold with Civic GX).
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    HESII is supposed to replace that system and provide two additional facilities... electricity (as a generator) and compressed/purified hydrogen.

     

    I'm thinking that the unit has to have water to cool the system. So the byproduct would be hot water. I checked out the company that makes it and cannot find any kind of pricing. It may bve for the wealthy folks..
  • Options
    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    HES-II is a product of collaboration between Honda and Plug Power. And yes, to get hot water out of a system, you have to feed water into it. Water heater in my home works the same way. ;-)

     

    As for cost, it may be for rich folks (which is a relative anyway). But, you and I won't know the actual cost until it is announced, like it has been for Phill (to go with Civic GX).
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "It still boils down to the fact that TODAY, in the USA, the cleanest, most efficient cars you can buy are Hybrids"

     

    .

    Only in California with clean sulfur-free gasoline. Elsewhere, both the Civic Hybrid & Volkswagen TDIs are tied at "6" according to the EPA & therefore equally clean.

     

    troy
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Mar. 30, 1998 In Japan, the Environmental Agency has released results that diesel autos, which make up 18 % of the 63 million autos owned in Japan, account for 75 % of the 550,000 tons of NOx emitted by all autos each year. The diesel autos also account for 56 % of the hydrocarbons that are a factor in photochemical smog and 100 % of the particulate matter

      

    .

    I repeat: What percent of CO comes from diesels? Also, 1998 is almost 10 years out-of-date. A lot has changed in just the last 10 years... like the Jetta changing from a "1=poor" to a "6=ULEV" rating at fueleconomy.gov. Plus no-sulfur diesel next year will raise that to a 9=SULEV.

      

    troy
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Puh-Leeze, those TDIs are not "tied" with the Civics. Go to this page:

     

    http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/all_alpha_05.pdf

     

    Look at the GHG and Air Pollution scores. The ULEV civic hybrids, available in Arizona, score 7 and 10. Jetta TDI scores 4 and 8.

     

    That's an 8.5 out of 10 average for the HCH and a 6 average for the TDI.

     

    Also, look here at the EPA's Greenest Small Cars listing, and look at the top ten cars. Where is the TDI? Look at the LAST ENTRY on the page.

     

    http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/smcar-00.htm

     

    I think we've had just about enough disinformation about diesels being "clean" when right now, in the USA, they are NOT clean at all.
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Click here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20713

    and http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20715

     

    .

     

    Notice the Civic Hybrid is only a "6" in the non-California-compliant states..... and that equals the Volkswagen TDI's score. Therefore my previous statement:

     

    "In California with clean sulfur-free gasoline the Civic Hybrid is a "10". Elsewhere, both the Civic Hybrid & Volkswagen TDIs are tied at "6" according to the EPA & therefore equally clean.

      

    ...is accurate. If you don't like it, stop yelling at me, and go yell at the EPA. It's their results.

     

    troy
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If you cannot see the page which scores the Jetta TDI as the DIRTIEST SMALL CAR on the list, then I'm sorry that the page did not come up.

    The EPA does not list the TDI and the Civic Hybrid as equal anywhere.

     

    The Jetta TDI page shows the TDI with a air pollution score as 4, with 5.8 tons of GHG emissions.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20812

     

    The "dirtiest" Civic Hybrid scores a 6, with only 4.1 tons of GHG emissions.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20715

     

    I'm sorry that diesel is dirtier, since it IS more efficient, but it IS dirtier.....
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Non-California Honda Civic Hybrid = 6:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20713

     

    Non-California Volkswagen TDI *also* = 6:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20653

     

    Now stop accusing me of lying ("ignoring the facts"). Those are the EPA's published results.

     

    troy
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    We are not comparing BEETLES to Civics.

     

    Plus, the Beetle TDI is still dirtier:

     

    5.1 tons GHG

    versus

    4.1 tons GHG for the Civic Hybrid.

     

    FACT: The CLEANEST USA Diesel is STILL dirtier than the DIRTIEST Civic Hybrid.

     

    P.S. I use CAPS to EMPHASIZE, not to yell. Capping is just easier than putting in bold codes or underline codes. I have used the internet since 1987, and that CAPS AS YELLING thing is kinda silly. Most people who use all caps all the time just do it because they are too lazy to press the shift key.....
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    First off, this is the "hybrid vs. diesel" forum, so Beetles ARE fair game.

     

    Second, the Beetle, Jetta, and Golf TDI are all the same car. Identical engines (100hp PD-TDI)... identical frame... identical transmissions & MPGs (38/46 city/highway)... the only difference is the top.

     

    If the Beetle TDI gets a "6" in EPA emissions, then the Jetta/Golf ALSO get a "6" in EPA emissions.

     

    Troy
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote E-Troy:"First off, this is the "hybrid vs. diesel" forum, so Beetles ARE fair game."-end quote.

     

    Sure, but people shopping to compare cars they might want to buy are LIKELY not going to be comparing Beetles to HCHs. (2 dr versus 4 dr, sub-compact vs compact, etc)

     

    quote E-Troy:"If the Beetle TDI gets a "6" in EPA emissions, then the Jetta/Golf ALSO get a "6" in EPA emissions."-end quote

     

    Not according to the pages you sent me to look at:

     

    Non-California Beetle TDI *also* = 6:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20653

     

    Jetta TDI page shows the TDI with a air pollution score as 4, with 5.8 tons of GHG emissions.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=20812

     

    So EPA scores the Beetle and Jetta TDIs differently and their GHG emission numbers are also different.

     

    (If this was a real debate, my team would be doing high fives right now.) :)
  • Options
    electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I don't care. It's obviously a mistake. The Jetta/Beetle/Golf are identical cars and have identical emissions.

     

    6

     

    troy
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'll get an e-mail out to the EPA right away to inform them of the mistake. :)
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think we've had just about enough disinformation about diesels being "clean" when right now, in the USA, they are NOT clean at all.

     

    I would agree with that. Your post and link is based on the year 2000. The VW TDI went from a 1 to it's current rating for the TDI of 6. Pretty remarkable in my view. If you want a PZEV hybrid you will have to buy one built for CA. Even then with the lousy gas in most of the USA you will not beat the 2004/2005 VW TDI. Smell your tail pipe. I go to other states and I smell the rotten egg smell coming from the poor quality gas. One of the Benefits that CARB has done for CA is force the refineries to clean out the sulfur. That is part of the reason for our higher prices. Designer gas.
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"The VW TDI went from a 1 to it's current rating for the TDI of 6. Pretty remarkable in my view."-end quote

     

    That's not bad, but some posters here are trying to say the TDIs are as clean as the HCH in the USA right now today, and right now, they just ARE NOT.

     

    Sure, the "dirtiest" HCH and the "cleanest" TDI have the same SCORE of 6, but the total GHG emissions are

     

    4.1 tons for the HCH

    5.1 tons for the TDI

     

    So they are similar in RATING, but the TDI STILL is dirtier.

     

    That's all I'm saying, and it is not an untruth.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sure, but people shopping to compare cars they might want to buy are LIKELY not going to be comparing Beetles to HCHs. (2 dr versus 4 dr, sub-compact vs compact, etc)

     

    Where did you come up with that. I am trying to convince my wife that we should get a Jetta Wagon for Hawaii. She likes the Beetle because it is cuter. Further more it is much roomier for the driver and front passenger than the Civic and has more luggage space. More head room than the Accord I just went and sat in. It is actually a better matchup than the Jetta Wagon which is much roomier than the Civic Hybrid. Then the handling is far superior to the Civic. So you got it all, looks, handling and good mileage with the Beetle TDI.
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"Your post and link is based on the year 2000."-end quote

     

    You are correct sir - that list WAS the 2000 model year - my OOPs.

     

    EPA Green car scores, 2005 model year:

     

    http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/smcar-05.htm

     

    This new listing puts the cleanest Jetta TDI at Air Pollution score of 4 and GHG score at 9 and the cleanest Beetle TDI at 6 AP and 9 GHG.

     

    This listing shows the DIRTIEST Civic Hybrid at an air pollution score of 6 and a GHG score of 10.

     

    So even in 2005, the HCH is cleaner than the cleanest diesel model available in the USA.
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"So you got it all, looks, handling and good mileage with the Beetle TDI."

     

    Right up until the point you need to install two car seats in the back, the Beetle is fine.

     

    Put in two rear car seats and a middle passenger and let me know how that goes. :)

     

    The Beetle is not for a driver who will routinely be using the back seat for normal sized adults, either.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So they are similar in RATING, but the TDI STILL is dirtier

     

    The HCH puts out less GHG which is not what I would call dirty air. Unless you were eating garlic or onions. It is primarily CO2 that we all exhale. The ICE just exhales more than some think the trees and grass can consume. Just to tone this down I do think the Civic hybrid is a good car and does more than it's share to save our environment. I also think that the VW TDI is a better choice than millions of the SUVs & trucks that are sold each year that are rated 6 and below. The ratings are by vehicle weight so a PU with a 6 rating will actually pollute more than a small car with a 6 rating. So to sell me a F350 in San Diego and deny me a VW TDI is pure and simple stupid on the part of CARB. It is pandering to the Big automakers.
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"The ratings are by vehicle weight so a PU with a 6 rating will actually pollute more than a small car with a 6 rating. So to sell me a F350 in San Diego and deny me a VW TDI is pure and simple stupid on the part of CARB. It is pandering to the Big automakers."-end quote

     

    I dont know about the conspiracy aspect of the post, but I do agree that allowing those huge SUVs and denying a cleaner diesel is a shame. Clean is Clean.
  • Options
    mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Those figures are on new cars while everything is working perfectly.

    How about the typical 7-10 year aging cycle of the typical diesel auto?

    7-10 Years of collecting black dirty diesel soot takes its toll.

     

    I don't know anyone who would enjoy, or have preference to pull behind an older diesel car vs an older gas car in a drive through line except possibly some enthusiasts here.

    I've even waited and let another pull behind it.

     

    I think diesel autos can be kept running just about like they were new. But I also believe most who buy a 7-10 aged auto just drive them "till the wheels fall off" and maintenance is neglected. Diesel included.

     

    No wonder we don't see many new diesels blowing black stinging soot like many of the older ones do.

    They just aren't willing (or able) to keep up the expensive maintenance required of an inherently dirty diesel engine.

     

    To be fair, I'll say aged gas engines might blow an oil vapor. The human experience with this is about 1/10th as nasty as diesel's toxic, sometimes invisible cloud.

     

    Generally hybrid gas engines are driven with less demand to maximize MPG, which may help them last longer than its traditional version.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think diesel autos can be kept running just about like they were new. But I also believe most who buy a 7-10 aged auto just drive them "till the wheels fall off" and maintenance is neglected. Diesel included.

     

    We must be real lucky in So. CA. I have not seen a smoking car of any kind for a long time. After all the ranting I have witnessed on this subject I paid close attention to the 240D MB that I followed through town the other day. It did not smoke at all leaving the stop lights. That car had to be 25-30 years old. You must get some real nasty diesel in your area for that kind of smoke to pour out of the diesel cars. My little Kubota tractor does not smoke on red dye diesel except a little puff when I start it. When I started running ULSD I don't get any exhaust. I'll tell you that no gas tractor that size can compare. Diesel is the superior fuel for vehicles. The sooner they get them over here the better off we will be. Why we are so far behind in the fuel quality and engine technology is beyond me. I feel like we are a third world country with what we are offered to drive. I shouldn't say that, third world countries get better vehicle options than we do...
  • Options
    mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Nice post gagrice.

    I can differ on this point:

    "third world countries get better vehicle options than we do"

     

    I haven't been to any part of europe, but have visited poor Asian countries that primarily burn diesel in everything from boats to cars.

     

    The provinces are pretty aired out but the cities are so choked with smog that many breathe through a mask. Those poor people aren't likely using any emission equipment at all. On the clogged highways you can see it rising from the road.

     

    That's surely one reason I don't like diesels, seeing the health problems an "unbridled" engine can do.

    They have 2 choices:

    1.Burn the expensive gasoline.

    2.Burn cheaper diesel in their smokey vehicles.

     

    I'm not saying the U.S. cars are smokey like theirs or that they would flock to hybrids given the chance, but here we do indeed have more choices than third world countries.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    but here we do indeed have more choices than third world countries.

     

    I am sure you are correct on all accounts. I have been on this quest since 1999. Two fellows from Brazil drove the nicest looking Ranger crew cab PU from the tip of So. America to the Arctic Ocean. It had a 4 cylinder diesel with 5 speed transmission. What sold me is they averaged 45 mpg for the entire trip. They sell these trucks in most of the world except the USA. You cannot tell me that diesel spews as much bad exhaust as a full size Ford truck with a Power Stroke diesel. Yet because of poorly written regulations by The EPA & CARB I can buy one but not the other. It has nothing to do with how much each pollutes. It has to do with loop holes left in the regulations. I don't even know why I care. Fuel for my vehicles is not even a blip on my budget. It is the principle that gets me going. I would probably buy an Insight if I had a daily commute. Just seems like the perfect commuter at a decent price.
  • Options
    z28_sedanz28_sedan Member Posts: 18
    I just picked up my 2002 Jetta TDI 5-spd (bought it over the internet) and drove it 665 miles back home. I got 52.7 mpg with cruise set on 70 pretty much the whole way. Actually, I did the whole trip on one tank.

     

    Just for the record, there is no sacrifice in

    highway passing with a TDI. In 5th gear, you can accelerate going up a hill from 60-80 in a flash. It feels like you have a V8 under the hood. Diesel torque is magnificent. The 2002 model is the "old" engine too. Starting with the 2004 model they got 22 more lb-ft of torque and 10

    more hp.

     

    I can see how the 0-60 is rather slow simply because of the smaller rpm range of the engine requires a lot of shifts in that speed range.

     

    Also, gotta love the VW handling and steering feel. I love the fact that you have 6 airbags protecting you (front, side, and curtain on each side) too.
  • Options
    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Why we are so far behind in the fuel quality and engine technology is beyond me. I feel like we are a third world country with what we are offered to drive.

     

    Not sure if we're behind or in the front, but diesel is popular in many countries (third world included), primarily due to cost advantage over gasoline, not because it is better.

     

    Even in Europe that supposedly loves diesel, gasoline powered motors make up for nearly 70% of the sales. Why do you think that is true?
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles