Hybrid vs Diesel

electrictroy

If this Italian town wanted a SMART law to reduce inner-city smog, they would ban ALL cars that were not 100% electric. No Priuses. No Civics or Insights.

 

Else, the Italian city will still have smog, albeit coming from the tailpipes of Hybrids & Natural Gas cars. The problem won't be solved.

 

troy

robertsmx

It is not just this little town in Italy. I remember reading about a similar article (not ban but surcharge) in London. Civic Hybrid was exempt from it being one of the cleanest cars available there. I need to dig up the article if I can.

larsb

quote robertsmx-"It is not just this little town in Italy."-end quote

 

That is true. The article I posted the link to says it is practiced elsewhere in the country and in the continent.

misterme

"The other four hybrids all lack performance as stated by some owners"

There's always "some" owners who will have complaints, no matter what they drive.

 

The overwhelmingly vast majority of hybrid owners (Except possibly the few just released models, too new to tell) absolutely love their cars.

As we know, the more you gas it, the more fuel it uses, no matter what you drive. Sometimes I think 99% of the drivers out there just don't understand that simple concept.

 

Someone here mentioned that hybrid cars are more complicated than diesel. I don't believe it. Diesel autos have a ton of complicated emission systems...pumps...sensors...scrubbers...tanks to clean up an otherwise inherently dirty engine. Most of these items are mechanical in nature, more prone to break down than electronics.

What makes a Honda Hybrid complicated? An electric motor/generator, controlling electronics and a battery. More electronics, less mechanical parts make a more reliable system.

 

Diesel fuel may have more energy than gasoline, but there are production hybrid cars what are averaging 60-90MPG. Most won't see those numbers but some do.

I'm not aware of any production diesel autos that average that.

tpe

I'm not all that knowledgeable about the air quality situation in Europe but I do know that over 50% of the auto-generated pollution in this country is produced by less than 10% of the cars. My point being that we can argue over which of the clean cars is cleaner but the fact is that none of them are the problem. They are all pretty darn clean and if they were representative of all the cars on the roadways we wouldn't be having this discussion. You can argue that it is always better to be cleaner but keep in mind you can only do so much. As I said, if 10% of the cars are producing over 50% of the pollution even if you get these 90% of the cleaner cars, which applies to all the cars mentioned in this discussion, to pollute at a level of zero you have only cut your pollution in half.

charliepl

There are production diesels in Europe with better real-life fuel economy than Toyota Prius (for instance: Audi A2 1.4 Tdi or Renault Clio 1.5dCi).

I found thislink interesting. It confirms that in many cases real-life fuel economy is off by 30% versus claimed fuel economy (Toyota Prius is notorious for it). On "TopGear" (British TV show) Prius only managed 45mpg. They said that VW Lupo Diesel managed 75mpg on the same route. They called Prius "pointless".

misterme

I apologize but my firewall blocks your link, so I haven't looked it over.

 

"It confirms that in many cases real-life fuel economy is off by 30% versus claimed fuel economy"

 

Prius's real life fuel economy as reported by its owners over the last year has averaged 48MPG over 99 cars, which is a little short of EPA, but still good.

HCH however is right at EPA at 47MPG average over 63 cars.

These are from the database over at green hybrid.

Is that 30% off EPA?

 

Did the same driver pilot both the Lupo and Prius?

 

Photo of Lupo:

http://media.vw.com/images//2001_Lupo_3L_TDI_thumb.jpg

Specifications:

http://carsearch.yahoo.co.uk/pdb/product.jsp?catId=100354123&- - pid=12261015

1 liter engine

4 passenger

50 HP engine

0-60 almost 18 seconds

Rated 48.7MPG

 

Come on, you can't be serious to compare a Prius or HCH to this?

charliepl

I didn't directly compare Prius to Lupo. I simply mentioned that according to "Top Gear" Lupo gets 40% better fuel economy than Prius on the same route, by the same pilot. I was responding to

#2274 "there are production hybrid cars what are averaging 60-90MPG. Most won't see those numbers but some do. I'm not aware of any production diesel autos that average that."

misterme

Thanks charliepl.

 

Lupo and Prius are two vastly different vehicles.

How can one compare between two vehicles of a different size, weight, class, type and power?

charliepl

Now for some real comparisons (I am using British whatcar.com magazine as a reference):

 

Toyota Prius

Price £17,545

0-60mph (sec) 10.9,Max speed (mph) 106

Extra urban mpg 67.3

 

Ford Focus Hatchback 1.6 TDCi LX 5dr:

Price £14,345

0-60mph (sec) 10.9,Max speed (mph) 117

Extra urban mpg 70.6

 

Citroën C4 Hatchback 1.6 HDi (110bhp) SX 5dr

Price £14,895

0-60mph (sec) 11.2, Max speed (mph) 119

Extra urban mpg 70.6

 

Renault Mégane Hatchback 1.9 dCi Dynamique 5dr

Price £15,090

0-60mph (sec) 10.5,Max speed (mph) 122

Extra urban mpg 64.2

 

The only real advantage Prius has over the above European diesels is urban mpg due to its complex regenerative drive system. Since urban transit system is well developed in Europe and city driving can be a nightmare, Prius's advantage is almost irrelevant.

 

Modern diesels beat Prius in the following categories:

1) Price

2) Extra urban mpg

3) Fun to drive & handling

4) Passenger space (Prius has very little headroom for rear seats)

5) Repair costs

They manage to achieve it without using complex (and therefore prone to breakage) technologies or hard to dispose of electric batteries. It looks to me that Prius (at least in Europe) doesn't make much sense.

gagrice

Prius's real life fuel economy as reported by its owners over the last year has averaged 48MPG over 99 cars, which is a little short of EPA

 

What is sad only 10 of those 99 Prius owners were able to reach the EPA combined average of 55 MPG. Also the emission ratings were based on that higher mileage. Maybe they were premature in giving the Prius a PZEV rating in CA.

 

And as I have said many times before it is much more complex than a standard gas or diesel car. More stuff to go bad and replace about the time the warranty runs out. The modern diesel does not have anymore sensors parts etc than the ICE in the hybrid. Then you add the batteries, electric motor, AC invertor & and all the control electronics. You have a lot of potential problems that do not exist in a straight ICE vehicle.

misterme

"only 10 of those 99 Prius owners were able to reach the EPA combined average of 55 MPG"

You're right. Prius EPA was overly optimistic. Do you (or anybody)know of any similar diesel auto databases to reference?

 

"You have a lot of potential problems that do not exist in a straight ICE vehicle"

Right again. I'm glad that there haven't been any quality or reliability issues with either the Toyota or Honda systems.

gagrice

I'm glad that there haven't been any quality or reliability issues with either the Toyota or Honda systems.

 

I don't think Toyota or Honda are going to report the problems they are seeing on their cars. We know what problems get reported here on Edmund's. With so few vehicles with high mileage it is premature to make statements on reliability of the hybrids.

 

I believe someone here mentioned only 5 problems with the HCH in the last 50 days. I did a search of the VW TDI problems over the last 2 months. I only found two problems. One owner had glowplug problem at over 100k miles the other was a cosmetic problem. When more people get to 6 years or 100k + miles reliability will be tested.

larsb

Maybe the Prius or the HCH is not the best fit in Europe, with it's "diesel entrenchment" and the fact that people will willingly drive smaller, lower performance cars without blinking an eye.

 

Have you seen some of the little itty bitty cars they sell over there? It's amazing what people are willing to drive.

 

That's in part because of the prevalence of trains that link all the countries and the fact that VERY VERY few people drive 2,500 miles on a vacation, like so many of us in the USA might do.

 

But in the USA, if you want a clean, highly efficient commuter vehicle, the Hybrids are your best option.

larsb

quote Gagrice-" don't think Toyota or Honda are going to report the problems they are seeing on their cars."-end quote

 

And that is not their job. It is the job of the companies who collect and parse that data, the JDP and CR, people you dislike so much Gary.

 

The only time ANY carmaker EVER "reports problems with their cars" is when they have a forced recall.

 

There have been TSBs on every car, hybrids included, but so far no recalls on Hybrids that I have heard about. Cars these days are tested for MILLIONS of miles before they are put on the road.

charliepl

In response to #2284 "Maybe the Prius or the HCH is not the best fit in Europe, with it's "diesel entrenchment" and the fact that people will willingly drive smaller, lower performance cars without blinking an eye. Have you seen some of the little itty bitty cars they sell over there? It's amazing what people are willing to drive."

 

That's not true. I showed you the technical specs of some European diesels including 0-60 acceleration and top speed and those numbers are equal or better than Prius's with equal or better Extra urban fuel consumption. And all of it is achieved without Prius's skinny, crappy-handling tires or extra-slippery dustbuster car shape. The cars I showed are not "itty bitty". They are as large as Prius except on the inside where they are larger (Prius has little rear passenger space because of the aforementioned dustbuster shape).

gagrice

But in the USA, if you want a clean, highly efficient commuter vehicle, the Hybrids are your best option.

 

I agree on the 3 original hybrids.

 

Have you checked the EPA ratings in the last day. I notice that they have changed the ratings. The HCH is now rated a 2 in the non CARB states and the VW TDI is now a 1. All the Civic cars are now rated 2 and 3 in CA.

gagrice

That's not true. I showed you the technical specs of some European diesels including 0-60 acceleration and top speed and those numbers are equal or better than Prius's with equal or better Extra urban fuel consumption

 

Your right, why would anyone buy a Prius or an Accord hybrid when you can buy an Accord i-CDTI that gets an honest 50 mpg combined without having to coast or accelerate slow. Driving 50 mph on the Autobahn is not very smart. The hybrids are of little value in the EU except for big city driving Only.

 

Also I found it interesting that the Prius had to be updated to be allowed into the UK. They had to add side airbags and rear disk brakes that were not available on the US stripped Prius.

larsb

quote Charliepl-"In response to #2284 "Maybe the Prius or the HCH is not the best fit in Europe, with it's "diesel entrenchment" and the fact that people will willingly drive smaller, lower performance cars without blinking an eye. Have you seen some of the little itty bitty cars they sell over there? It's amazing what people are willing to drive." That's not true. I showed you the technical specs of some European diesels including 0-60 acceleration and top speed and those numbers are equal or better than Prius's with equal or better Extra urban fuel consumption. And all of it is achieved without Prius's skinny, crappy-handling tires or extra-slippery dustbuster car shape. The cars I showed are not "itty bitty". They are as large as Prius except on the inside where they are larger (Prius has little rear passenger space because of the aforementioned dustbuster shape)."-end quote

 

Yes, you did point out comparable cars to the Prius. But I was not talking about that. I was talking about the fact that at a much lower price point, Euro drivers can and DO buy MUCH SMALLER cars, and are happy with that.

 

And my overall point was about USA cars, and how the Hybrids are the best option HERE.

 

I agree with you that because of the culture and the environment and the different driving STYLES in Europe, the Hybrids are in many cases not the best fit. For over THERE. Not for the USA.

charliepl

Agreed.

electrictroy

"Have you seen some of the little itty bitty cars they sell over there? It's amazing what people are willing to drive."

 

.

 

Not really. It just means that Europeans are not greedy like us Americans.

 

Seriously.

 

I drive around in an Insight & a Beetle. Both are small cars that only hold 2 & 4 people respectively, plus weekly groceries, but so what??? Why do I need to go bigger?

 

Anything larger would be greedy & wasteful.

 

 
.

 

BACK TO EU CITIES BANNING CARS (except hybrids/LNGs)

 

This just demonstrates how stupid politicians are. They would allow a ULEV hybrid like the Civic or a LEV hybrid like the Escape, but ban SULEV or PZEV cars like the Ford Focus or Nissan Sentra. They allow less-clean hybrids, and ban ultra-clean gasoline/diesel cars.

 

It makes more sense to regulate *actual* emissions, regardless of the technology used. i.e. Ban anything below SULEV level... even the hybrids.

 

troy

Sylvia

Troy - that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, some families need larger vehicles (kids, dogs, groceries, bikes, etc.) so calling folks like this greedy is a bit unfair. Sure, I think it is crazy that the single lady down the street with a dog the size of a hat drives a Hummer. Drives me nuts. I also know that friends in Europe with 4 kids had to give up their beloved Fiat Panda for a larger car did so out of need and not greed.

 

Now - making a car that was able to hold 3 car seats easily (easy getting the kids in and out), 2 adults and cargo that was a hybrid would be my cup of tea. I'm not giving up the kids - sorry.

electrictroy

I guess?

 

Problem is..... My Brother raised a family of 5, and all he had was a Beetle (the old kind with no heat), and later a tiny Volkswagen Golf. If he can do it, why can't other Americans?

 

There's a difference between "need" and "luxury". My brother "needed" a Beetle/Golf that could carry his family of 5, but he did not need the huge living-room-sized SUV. The SUV is a LUXURY, not a need.

 

Americans need to learn the distinction between "need" and "luxury", as Europeans have learned.

 

troy

Sylvia

Agreed to portions of your statement. Now - back on topic please...

robertsmx

We can go back to my dump the motor and paddle to work theory. But you suggested your NEED to drive.

 

Automobiles are luxuries in much of the world, but necessities in most of the USA. Generalizing needs isn't going to be as simple as simply suggesting what your brother or you could do. It may not fit my needs.

 

But yes, there is an issue with figuring out needs versus wants. Very few people have success doing that. However, this isn't an excuse to compare everything to everything. That is just wrong.

Sylvia

Here's an interesting article on cleaner-burning low sulfur diesel fuel vehicles

http://www.aaaworld.com/pages/articles.asp?id=174

 

"-up to a 40 percent increase in fuel economy over gasoline engines;

-a reduction of 25 percent in carbon dioxide emissions, a "greenhouse gas" that has been linked to global warming;

-greater torque for acceleration and trailer-pulling power comparable to or better than that of gasoline-powered models."

 

Something to chew on.

gagrice

More people are realizing the answer to our fossil fuel use problems has been under our nose for a while. The EU has become the leader in this area. Too bad we are so hamstrung with over-regulation that we are becoming the followers instead of the leaders of advanced technology. The diesel is still the only current motivation for vehicles that can run on renewable fuels.

larsb

I'm going to make the point I made LAST TIME we had this "brand versus brand" discussion.

 

Anyone can find hundreds of individual testimonials to the awesomeness or awfulness of one particular car or brand of car.

 

Those are a dime a dozen. Msn.com has thousands and so does Edmunds.com.

 

What MATTERS is that professional reliability testing companies like JD Power and Consumer's Union and scores of other smaller companies solicit information from HUNDREDS OF THOUSDANDS of owners of all brands and models of cars.

 

And those people, the ones who accumulate the MOST DATA and thus can be scientifically crowned as the ones with the BEST DATA, they all rate one brand of car better than another or one specific car better than another based on real owners with real problems.

 

You cannot correctly base a decision of whether to buy a Hybrid or a Diesel on one or two, or even a hundred and one or hundred and two, individual "gripes" or "raves" that you find on a website or 50 websites. The user base is just TOO SMALL unless you look at EVERY SINGLE COMMENT you can find on the web positive or negative about that car.

 

A research project like that would take FOREVER.

 

So what you CAN DO is look at JD Power and CR to let them do the hard work FOR YOU. They KNOW which cars are better and which brands are better because they use TENS OF THOUSANDS of actual users who report problems. They have summarized that into ratings which the common man or woman can use as a guide.

 

It's all just guides. But like any guide, if you use it properly, you will make it you your goal. If you use only PART of the guide, you will be lost.

gagrice

So what you CAN DO is look at JD Power and CR to let them do the hard work FOR YOU.

 

I guess we agree to disagree. I want specific problems with specific vehicle models. CR & JD Powers are into stereotyping makes & models with little real world information to look at. They are far from a useful tool. IMO they are not as credible as the posters on Edmund's. Your experience with YOUR HCH is more valid to me than a top ten list from CR.

larsb

I have always let the professionals do their jobs for me, when it comes to thousands upon thousands of hours of work that I dont have time to do myself.

 

I'll change my own oil, because that takes a half hour, but if changing my oil took 40 days, I'd let someone else do it !!

tpe

Calling diesel an answer to our fossil fuel problem is a pretty strong statement. Let's clarify, when there is an answer there must be a question or at least a goal. What is it? Energy independence? I don't think so. I believe diesel fuel contains 25-30% more energy than regular unleaded fuel. Let's say that we can translate that to the same level of mpg improvement. Okay, magically every car on the road is now getting that increased mileage. We still are not energy independent. Let's be more realistic, these more efficient cars gradually replace the existing fleet over the next 8 years. We drive 3% more miles per year so we are essentially where we started. I'm anticipating your response. Yeah, but were much better off than we would have been. If that is the definition of "answer", to have burned less fuel than you would otherwise have burned then there are a whole lot of answers. If I choose to walk or ride a bike to work once a month, guess what, that's an answer and the current hybrid cars are also answers.

 

My personal goal would be energy independence and getting too excited about any approach that can't succeed is setting the bar awfully low.

 

One more point and correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't it take more oil to refine a gallon of diesel? If that's correct than that adjustment needs to be made right off the top when comparing the relative efficiency of a diesel v non-diesel. If it takes 10% more oil to get that gallon, I'm guessing, than a diesel that gets 40 mpg should only be considered to get 36 when doing the comparison if you really want to have a credible discussion.

fosterbnb

I am certain that you brother did not use car-seats/boosters and had no kids under 12 in the front seats using those cars. these are requirements today that were not in place prior to the 1980's. I have 4 kids under 3 years old(all in car seats) and that makes a vehicle with 3 row seating a requirement. the number of vehicles available with this seating available are vans and big suv's, most of the wagons that have three row seating are not capable of having car seats in the last row.

Also a big reason that Europeans have small cars has nothing to do with anything other than the infrastructure, the streets in most of the cities are so narrow that bigger cars are extremely difficult to drive/park. So the European need is due to the infrastructure.

fosterbnb

1 barrel of oil-42 gallons refiners usualy can get up to about 20-24 gallons(varies due to type of crude) of gasoline(when cracking process is used, and the residual will make 1-2 gallons of wasted product(due to cracking process), and remaining will make lube oils, etc.

1 bbl of oil can make 18-22 gallons of diesel, and remainder will make heavy oil, lube oils, etc, with less wasted crude, not to mention that much less energy is required to make diesel than gasoline(a heater and a centrifuge is all that is needed to separate the diesel from the crude) so it is pretty much a wash or slightly in favor of diesel.

robertsmx

With cleaner diesel, a simplistic approach may not hold true, however. ULSD should require additional processing.

erik

If everyone were to buy a hybrid and semis were hybrids, the US would still be dependent on imported oil. Diesel can run on a renewable energy source. Biodiesel or Synfuel. What happens to the battery once the hybrid car is old? That battery is not good for the environment. Oh, I love smoking it in front of a Prius(pism).

tpe

First off, thanks for the information, but I'm not sure it is a wash. All these usable by-products you mentioned, do we need them in the amount that would result from extensive diesel production. If not then the excess becomes waste. As far as it taking less energy, well I don't dispute that but we have energy, what we need is something to run our cars on. And the number of barrels of oil we consume is directly proportional to the amount of gas we consume. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the percent increase in mpg won't be realized in a comparable percent decrease in barrels of oil used.

gagrice

Even so, diesels are grabbing a bigger share of the market. There are now 14 diesel models for sale in the U.S., up from 11 last year. Makers sold nearly 500,000 diesels here in 2004, according to Power Information Network, up 31% from 2002. These vehicles accounted for 2.9% of the U.S. light-vehicle market in 2004—up from 2.2% in 2002

 

http://webreprints.djreprints.com/1152580994047.html

gagrice

One more point and correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't it take more oil to refine a gallon of diesel?

 

It looks like it costs more to refine diesel. This is a good comparison or gas & diesel.

 

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

larsb

"Diesel fuel is carried at only about 30 percent of filling stations nationwide — and now often costs more than gas."

 

Source: TheDay.com, CT newspaper (registration required so no link)

ruking1

No, it is the other way around. The natural graphic division depicted can be "slightly misleading", in that diesel is NOT processed separately from unleaded gasoline. In fact, the process actually induces separation so the various products can be gathered and segregated!!???

 

So a natural by product(among others) of a barrel of "crude" is diesel (30%). So in fact you can not refine "crude" to GET unleaded gasoline without a "diesel" yield (and vice versa). So in fact, if diesel is banned, the unleaded gas users would be saddled with the cost of disposal of an addtional 30 % of processed fuel that would have NO MARKET. The best graphic way to look at it is say if you bought 10 gals of unleaded gasoline and the industry gave you 7 gals and charged you for the cost of disposal of 3 gals. The analogy breaks down, in that the 3 gals of unleaded gasoline indeed can be sold, but if it were diesel you would incure a HUGE disposal cost.

 

This of course is not a technical description, the problem with the technical description is most folks would opt for root canal rather than go through and more importantly understand what is really going on.

gagrice

Plus, a natural by product(among others) of a barrel of "crude" is diesel (30%).

 

I might add to that. One of the areas of oil production in the Arctic is so "sweet" the oil can be run in the trucks straight out of the wells.

robertsmx

And in Europe/Japan gasoline powered vehicles outsell diesel. So, gasoline must be better.

ruking1

When I was researching whether to get a diesel or not, (2002) the estimate was 1/4 or 25% of filling stations nationwide sold diesel. So I am glad to see that it has expanded 5%. The practicality of it is that I have NEVER had a problem getting fuel.

 

Diesel is taxed at a higher % rate than unleaded gasoline. Also diesel product has a HUGE market competition that unleaded regular does not and that is home heating oil!!

ruking1

Better in what way? #2 diesel gives up to 37% BETTER fuel mileage than unleaded gas. Plus it takes a good % LESS upstream resources to process.

 

Diesel engines have the capability to go 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles or a design life of between 10,000-20,000 hours (45-50 avg mph). Why would you want to buy a new gasser every 8.5 years or 100,000 miles or from 5-10 cars more than what one diesel will cover?

 

A pretty easy comparison where the rubber meets the road is the VW diesel 42/49 mpg vs VW 2.0/1.8T 24/31 mpg. So which uses MORE/LESS fuel?

larsb

"Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, $26,860

 

Diesel Advantage: Fuel economy is 30 percent higher than gas

 

Diesel Disadvantage: It also costs $1,635 more

 

Slipping behind the wheel of this Jeep Liberty, due to go on sale later this month, we couldn't help remembering what it was like to start a diesel of two decades ago. There was the 10-second wait for the “glow plugs” to warm the engine chambers, the coughing start, the cloud of black exhaust, the rattling rear-view mirror. “Those were tough times,” says Jeep spokesman James Kenyon, recalling in particular the Jeep Cherokee diesels of 1985 to 1987. “As we get more of the new vehicles on the road, more consumers will begin to come around.”

 

So we were pleased when our test vehicle started in a split second. Still, there was no doubt we were in a diesel: Its engine rattled and emitted a familiar chug, and when we rolled down our window to back out of our driveway we caught a whiff of distinctive exhaust. The engine got us across intersections quickly, but at higher speeds it reminded us somewhat of anemic diesels of old.

 

Chrysler says it's using its Jeep unit in part to test U.S. demand in the segment, and begin catching up with longer-established rivals like Volkswagen. The company says it will start cautiously: While it says 50,000 people have expressed interest in a Jeep diesel, it plans to build only about 5,000 Liberty CRD models annually, compared with the 167,000 gas-powered versions it sold last year."

 

I don't think the Liberty will be a diesel that you diesel fans want to brag about, or compare with the Escape Hybrid.....

larsb

Wait - not available in the USA !!! You could get TWO Accord Hybrids for the price of one of these.

 

"BMW 740d, $70,000

 

Diesel Advantage: Quiet as a gasoline version

 

Diesel Disadvantage: You can't get it in the U.S. — yet

 

BMW won't confirm it's planning to sell diesels in the U.S., but the German company is giving some hints. It already counts on diesels for 40 percent of its European sales, and has brought over a mini fleet of diesels for its own in-house test drives. From the garages of the company's U.S. headquarters in Woodcliff Lakes, N.J., we checked out a 7-Series diesel — filled up, even, with low-sulfur fuel from drums BMW had shipped over. BMW hopes that 2006's low-sulfur fuel regulation will allow its cars to pass emissions regulations in all 50 states, which it signals would be an opportunity to begin selling its cars here.

 

Like the Mercedes, this 7-Series felt as fast as gas-powered models but had the mileage of a small economy car — about 35 mpg on the highway. It was also the hardest of the bunch to distinguish from its gas counterpart: Its V8 engine sounded little like a diesel, and its acceleration was peppy, smooth and quiet."

ruking1

It really does not explain that EVERY European name brand available in the USA has a "killer" diesel model available in Europe. Honda even has a killer "Accord" iCTDI" model. The fact of the matter is anything beyond the current paltry numbers and %'s of diesels in the USA is BANNED!!! This might be too obvious to even mention but ya can't buy em if they are not available!??

 

The MB E320 diesel version gets better fuel milege than its gasser sister E320 and is quicker in the all important American metric: 0-60 mph.

gagrice

And in Europe/Japan gasoline powered vehicles outsell diesel. So, gasoline must be better.

 

Why did Honda decide to build diesel engines? Two reasons they could not sell their gas cars in the EU. And they were buying other manufacturers diesel engines for their cars. I'm glad they are building the i-CDTI. They will eventually have vehicles in the States that I would consider buying. I would give them a second chance after the last piece of crap Honda Accord I bought.

 

We will not know the true popularity of the diesel cars until they are sold in all 50 states. We know they are 5 times more popular than the hybrids, with 500k sold in 2004.

tpe

25% of all the motor fuel consumed in this country is diesel, it's just not consumed in passenger vehicles. Add to that the amount used in heating oil and the small amount used to generate energy, I don't know what the aviation industry uses. Regardless, this diesel by-product is not going to waste.

ruking1

No actually it is more like 50% of total consumption!!!(not just motor fuel) So why the environmentalist overlook this is beyond me. Like I said the essential catch 22 is if diesel is "BANNED" you would have an instant environmental problem of epic proportions!!!!!