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Hybrid vs Diesel

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  • Diesel contains more energy. That also means, given equal MPG, the diesel will emit more CO2. That's obvious.

     

    .

    However, diesel is also more *energy efficient*:

    Jetta Gasoline = ~2900 BTU/mile

    Jetta Diesel = ~2100 BTU/mile

     

    Simply put, the diesel can do the same amount of work, for less energy spent.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,162
    It's an equal advantage & therefore a wash

     

    It's not a wash. The fuel economy on E85 equipped vehicles is much lower than on gas. That is not the case with biodiesel. The EPA is concerned that companies buying E85 capable for the tax breaks are using regular unleaded. E85 is expensive in CA as the transportation is more expensive than gas or diesel. I don't believe a Civic would run on E85.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    Here is an interesting comparison on a GOVERNMENT web site. I compared the 2004 Honda Civic, Civic Hybrid and 2003 VW Jetta TDI. You might have to re enter the pertinent comparison data. This is further interesting in that the diesel used (the HATED) ordinary truck stop #2 diesel fuel vs the new 2006 standard and or (biodiesel) B100 or a mix!!!!

     

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

     

    The diesel engine is more powerful than either the gasser engine or the gasser hybrid engine. The diesel puts out annual greenhouse gasses-AGGE's of 4.7 tons vs 5.7 tons for less powerful gasser Civic vs 4.1 tons for a Civic gas hybrid.

     

    The DIESEL clearly pumps out LESS AGGE's than the less powerful but VERY VERY GREEN gasser Civic (ULEV).

     

    The gasser also gets LESS mpg 29/38 vs 42/49. The gas hybrid real world mpg only matches the diesel mpg due to the hybrid with an ENORMOUS power disadvantage!

     

    It is obvious there is currently no diesel hybrid. It is also graphically clear that if a diesel was mated to a hybrid, it would pump out less AGGE's than the Civic gas hybrid, and get better mpg. This clearly highlights why the hybrid vs diesel thread has been so adversarial.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "If we didn't have the California legislation to deal with, we as car manufacturers would choose diesel. The advantages are many. You just have to have one propulsion system on board. You just have one tank reservoir and you don't need a big battery. Especially when driving long distances in North America, you don't have the load of carrying another propulsion system."

     

    I could not have said the above Words of Great Wisdom any better! For this compelling interview with a VW board member responsible for Technical Development-please refer to the site below!!!

     

    http://www.globemegawheels.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20- 050210/WHVAUGHAN10/cars/
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    "Diesel contains more energy. That also means, given equal MPG, the diesel will emit more CO2. That's obvious."

     

    Because a chemical compound contains more energy, does not mean that there are more molecules. Formula: (# of molecules) x (energy per molecule)

    =energy; (5)x(2) > (6)x(1.5). So if diesel were the left side of the equation and the (5) represents the amount of carbon, you would have less CO2 with more energy.

     

    The energy released from combustion of fuel is not simply dependent on how much carbon is present, but is also dependent on the energy of the bonds being broken between C and O and H. Diesel I believe has higher energy molecular bonding.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    ..."Diesel I believe has higher energy molecular bonding."...

     

    This is not a "belief" it is FACT.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Diesel exhaust may increase the speed of Global Warming:

     

    "The reason the issue of diesel versus gasoline is important, says Jacobson, is that, in Europe, one of the major strategies for satisfying the Kyoto Protocol is to promote further the use of diesel vehicles and specifically to provide a greater tax advantage for diesel. Tax laws in all European Union countries, except the United Kingdom, currently favor diesel, thereby inadvertently promoting global warming, Jacobson says. Further, some countries, including Sweden, Finland, Norway, and the Netherlands, also tax fuels based on their carbon content. These taxes also favor diesel, he notes, since diesel releases less carbon per kilometer [mile] than does gasoline. Nevertheless, the small amount of black carbon and organic matter emitted by diesel may warm the atmosphere more over 100 years than the additional carbon dioxide emitted by gasoline."

     

    Entire article here:

     

    http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/prrl0233.html
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    The gas hybrid real world mpg only matches the diesel mpg due to the hybrid with an ENORMOUS power disadvantage!

     

    Now we’re concerned about power ratings? Are we always? Then we shouldn’t compare Accord Hybrid to Passat Diesel or (possibility of) Accord Diesel. Should we?

     

    And you either believe in EPA or not. Take a side, and we go from there. Otherwise we could use a real life comparison test for illustrations, as was done by C&D a few months ago, involving Civic Hybrid, Prius and Jetta TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    I think you like the artificial categories for "WAXING" on purposes.

     

    If the numbers (on this FED site) are to be believed, ALL GASSERS other than the hybrid gassers emit FAR more green house gasses both % and volume than VW TDI diesels!!!!! The American diesel population sits between 2.3-2.9% So by CLEARLY (by default) the ENEMIES (ones you are really railing against) are the other 97-98% GASSERS!!!!!??? Diesels are just a metaphor for your discontent! Your reasoning makes a rock solid case for MORE diesel use, both in volume and percentage!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    Are you really saying that the gasser use has NO contribution??
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,162
    That is a good perspective. It looks like CA car buyers will be strapped with more expensive cars than the rest of the USA due to more stringent regulations. VW is saying they are not going to try and make a diesel that is PZEV, if I read the interview correctly. They will build a hybrid for the CA market if they have to.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    I am even more glad I got the 2003 TDI! Now to make it go 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles! :( :)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Congrats !! 1 million miles in a Jetta TDI will only cost you

     

    $460,000 !!!!!

     

    Hope you invested well !!! :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,162
    $.46 per mile?

    I would be curious as to how you projected that? Also what you think the average hybrid will cost to maintain at 300k miles plus. There are many on this forum with 300k miles plus driving diesels. How many hybrids do you think will last that long? For me I cannot imagine driving that many miles on a car. But for someone with a long commute it is a fact of life. You either keep a car a long time or waste money on a new one every 7-8 years.

    New 2003 Jetta TDI =$20,000

    diesel for 1 million miles @ 45 mpg $45,000

    engine & transmission rebuild every 200k miles $30,000

    Oil changes every 10k miles $7500


    I get a total expenditure of about $102,500 for a million miles. More like 10 cents per mile. See if you can get that with a hybrid for a million miles.

     

    I predict right here and now, in 6 years there will be a bunch of screaming hybrid owners that feel ripped off when the repair bills start adding up. The diesel bunch will be saying I told you so...
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    My per mile indicators are FAR less than .46 cents per mile. Given your perchance to keep your hybrid 100,000 or less, compared to that cycle, I have essentially broken even! But in truth it is far better than that.

     

    Fuel will essentially be at the going rate/time. It would be the same for gassers. The essential kicker is it will become cost effective to get a new vehicle when the gas mileage is 3x better or....138 mpg!!!!! :( :)

     

    In today's dollars:

    at 46 mpg 2.15 per gal =.0467 cents.

     

    Schduled maintenance is .0103591 cents. (includes all stuff that wears,100k timing belt changes, clutch, tires, brakes, etc etc) So operating costs are .0570591 cents per mile.

     

    So if I fully depreciate the cost of the car that would be .018 per mile Again if it holds true then 1M would = $75,059.00

     

    Engines for my projections are "unscheduled" maintenance and as such is app 4,000 and 1,000 for labor. Design life is 10,000-20,000 hrs say at the average speed of 45 mph= 450,000-900,000 miles.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I just used Edmunds.com and looked up the 2005 Jetta GLS TDI and went to the page which has the True Cost to Own figures.

     

    Edmunds has that on ALL new cars.....check it out:

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/volkswagen/jetta/100477736/cto.ht- ml?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..4.Volkswagen*
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    Yes, I used it when buying a Honda Civic and also a VW Jetta TDI. The assumptions they used are FAR different that the ones I use to KEEP a Civic 250,000 miles +plus and the TDI for 500,000-1,000,000 miles +plus. As you can probably gather and agree, they are different!!?

     

    So the kicker is when you try to run a hybrid out to those numbers, and as you well know the cost will probably be high or even cost prohibitive.

     

    So essentially, i.e., (pick your number, any number)if you do trade new every 100,000 miles you will have to get 10 cars (app) say at 20k or 200,000 dollars acquisition costs over time. vs 18,000 dollars.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    I am ok with you (even totally) disagreeing with my conclusions, but have the decency to AT LEAST represent what was actually said.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"I predict right here and now, in 6 years there will be a bunch of screaming hybrid owners that feel ripped off when the repair bills start adding up. The diesel bunch will be saying I told you so..."-end quote

     

    Not the SMART ones. The SMART ones like me will trade up to a newer, better hybrid (maybe even a diesel hybrid sedan, if one comes to be) and leave the battery problems to the second or third owner or the junkyard owner.... :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    ..."Cetane has nothing to do with pollution control as you quote it next to the issue of sulfur. It is a different measure altogether, determining ignition delay after fuel injection."...

     

    On the contrary, this is not true, Cetane plays its part! New 2006 standard low sulfur fuel will have 50 cetane and above. Current 49 state cetane is required to be at least 40 Cetane at the pump. In fact current CA Cetane is required to be 45 cetane. It is considered cleaner burning and manufactures less sludge.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    ..."Not the SMART ones. The SMART ones like me will trade up to a newer, better hybrid (maybe even a diesel hybrid sedan, if one comes to be) and leave the battery problems to the second or third owner or the junkyard owner.... :) ..."

     

    Actually you are making a prima facie case for spending closer to the (.46 per mile or ) 460,000 for a million miles traveled than I ever would!!!?? :)
  • That 46 cents per mile is only for the first 5 years. But you have to realize that the depreciation will stabilize and the car won't accrue financing charges, and there won't be more sales tax, etc. So the costs per mile after that period would be way less than half.

     

    To keep a car over 100,000 miles a diesel is going to be much less expensive than a hybrid. Think about how much electric stuff starts going out on an old car, and multipy that by about 10!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Example: If I buy cars which are only 39 cents per mile, and I buy ten of them in 30 years, I'm STILL spending less than a driving ONE CAR that costs 46 cents per mile 30 years, am I not?

     

    39 cents x 99,000 miles x 10 = $386,100

     

    46 cents x 1,000,000 miles = $460,000
  • As I said, the diesel would not continue to cost $0.46 per mile. More like $0.20, and that's keeping it up to very high maintenance standards.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    For planning purposes, it does make sense to keep a reserve. But that is true even for a "brand" new car!!!

     

    Since I have kept 2 vehicles app 250,000 miles each, I have a reasonable feel and experiences to go along with it. But what happens is a lot of those items give out as a matter of course, so really it is included as "regular" maintenance.

     

    The reason they would be included as "unscheduled" maintenance in a hybrid for example would be the "shorter" time horizon, and rightly so.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    It would be great if Edmunds would go beyond five years, but if they do not, then anything we "guess" is just a "guess."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,079
    Yes.. but ONE car won't cost 46 cents/mile over 1,000,000 miles.. After 150K miles, no more depreciation... No more finance charges... Property taxes are minimal, no collision insurance, etc., etc, etc..

     

    If you HAVE to buy a new car every 100K miles, then that does pretty much prove that hybrids will cost much more in the long run..

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote-"If you HAVE to buy a new car every 100K miles, then that does pretty much prove that hybrids will cost much more in the long run."-end quote

     

    Actually, that proves nothing at all. There ARE the adventurous types who want to keep a hybrid car for 500K miles, and more power to them. I'm not one of them.

     

    I'll take my 39 cents per mile cost over 60K-90K miles and be happy I'm driving new technology every 3-4 years.... :)

     

    I'm still on the lookout for that diesel/electric 4 door hybrid sedan which gets 60-70 MPG and costs less than $30K......
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,158
    ..."I'll take my 39 cents per mile cost over 60K-90K miles and be happy I'm driving new technology every 3-4 years.... :) "...

     

    Well I stand corrected then! Your figures indicate 12-17 cars over a 1,000,000 miles and at 20,000 that is 240,000- 340,000 in acquisition costs!

     

    Yes yes! 240k-340k is less than 18k! :)
This discussion has been closed.