Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Jeep Liberty Diesel

1367368369371373

Comments

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Winter2 Here,

    Yes, it has been a while since I have visited here and left any comments. I have been terribly busy at work and just have not had the opportunity to get the letter out to Sergio or post it here.

    In any event, we are going to let the Jeep go and move on. We are also done with Chrysler after my wife and I have been customers of theirs for more than fifty years. I still like some of their products and designs but my wife and I are concerned about the treatment we would receive should something like this occur again.

    In the meantime, I have purchased a 2013 Subaru Outback 2.5i Premium. The fuel economy is about the same as the Jeep, but I do miss the torque from the diesel. The interior room is about the same but the seats are far superior as is the ride which is quieter and more supple. Handling is equivalent. The engine in the Subaru is a bit different. It is still a flat four but now there is a timing chain instead of a timing belt. The transmission is a CVT versus the five speed in the Jeep. This is my first CVT and it takes a bit of getting use to. There is no torque converter. I was on number three when the engine blew.

    I suppose I could post the letter I do have and the pictures I have before I send them off to Sergio. I need a little advice on how to post the letter and the pictures.

    Thanks
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,128
    Here's the help blurb:

    To add a photo to your Forum post, first click the “Img” button beneath the text box; this inserts the beginning of the standard HTML tag for an image. Next, add the URL of the photo, e.g. http://url-location/photo.jpg (Note: the photo needs to have been uploaded to a photo hosting service in order to have a URL.) Finally, click the “Img” button again to insert the end of the standard HTML tag for an image. When you post your message, the photo will be included.

    So, you'll need to upload the pics to flickr or photobucket or some similar hosting site, and then grab the URL of the pics. I usually use tinypic since it's pretty quick.

    And you'll want to put some paper over the address or other personal when you take photos of the letter for uploading.

    Give a shout if you get stuck (stever@edmunds.com).

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    edited February 2013
    link title

    Here are the pictures. They are not pretty. Comments welcome.
  • What a mess! What oil were you using? How many miles on the car?
    I have bought a couple of parts cars in the past, one was a Saturn and one a Honda. Each of them had engines that looked very similiar to your Pics.
    There seems to be good and bad engines in most makes of cars. The CRD because it is limited production and owned by paticular people, gets more communicated about it by its owners.
    I believe the most important addition that every owner should do ASAP is either a Provent system or homemade copy, to keep the engines as clean as possible. This will prevent some costly repairs.
    In your case, it would be nice to know what happened, but it looks like something was out of balance.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    Hi winter2,
    I have the impression something blocked your piston on its way up and the impact destroyed the connecting rod that replicated damage in the volume around the crankshaft journal. I would inspect the head of the cylinder to see if a valve is bent or missing because the foot of your connecting rod looks OK.

    I experienced such a failure with the B16 engine of my Volvo 544 (years ago); the Babbitt liner melted then the foot of the connecting rod broke free, piston hit the head then rotation of the crankshaft destroyed the rest by hitting the broken foot sideways ;)

    This was a lubrication problem, but I wouldn't say its the same in your case.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Unclebob, Caribou,

    What a mess is an understatement. The oil I was using was Lubro Moly 5W-40 part # 2040 which up to a few days ago was still a recommended oil for this engine on the Lubro Moly website. I spoke with Lubro Moly and they swear on a stack of bibles that they have never had an engine fail because of their oil.

    Now the head is still in place and the service manager refused to pay his tech to pull the head to see what was going on inside number one cylinder. The valve cover(s) are also still in place so I do not know if a valve is broken. As I did mention a long time ago, I was able to reach in the hole on the side of the block and grab hold of the bottom end of the connecting rod which you see in several pictures. I was able to rotate that piece on the crank journal by hand with a little difficulty but it did move.

    I was told that the glowplug for number one cylinder had been destroyed and I have the injector for said cylinder and the tip is smashed flat.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Dave,

    Still have the Mercury (wife's car) and it is running fine. The Subaru is a flat four with a CVT. Took a bit of getting use to but it is a good vehicle at this point in time. I still miss the torque of the diesel but I do not miss the questionable reliability.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Only had 77594 miles on the Jeep when it blew up and this without any warning.

    Jeep is going to use a VM Motori diesel engine in the Grand Cherokee. Fiat has bought heavily into VM Motori so let us pray that the Fiat diesel engineers resolved the issues faced by Liberty CRD owners.

    In my view, there was a component failure, either a bad connecting rod or a bad cylinder liner.

    As Caribou has stated, the 2.8L was never really designed for long highway cruising.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    Winter2,
    You can borrow or buy a cheap USB endoscope, these cost less than $50 today. If a valve is missing chances are that's what broke your engine.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    edited February 2013
    Unfortunately, the engine is in Florida and I live in Maryland. I know exactly what you are talking about (the device).

    I intend to purchase one of these devices and next time I go to Florida I will examine the inside of the engine via the hole where the injector went through and from the bottom also.

    If the piston is stuck in the bore, then there is a problem with the liner design.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    edited February 2013
    The head of this connecting rod seems oval:

    http://s1276.beta.photobucket.com/user/fjwinter/media/DSCN0514_zps4b9f822e.jpg.h- - tml?sort=3&o=5

    while this picture shows one that is not:

    http://s1276.beta.photobucket.com/user/fjwinter/media/DSCN0508_zps14b6e725.jpg.h- - tml?sort=3&o=11

    Mixed debris tend to indicate there are both piston and liner material but none are deformed nor squashed.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Caribou,

    I have the head of the connecting rod here at home. It is not out of round as a wrist pin slips in and out of the head smoothly.

    So, what do you think based on the pictures?

    Winter2
  • is the head intact? valve wise?
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    The Florida dealer refused to pay the tech to remove the head or the valve cover, so I really cannot answer your question. Wish I knew what was going on inside of number cylinder.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    edited February 2013
    I would opt for a single-brutal isotropic fragmentation instead of an accumulative-stress or just the 'one-of' stochastic incident because this engine is well engineered and has been thoroughly tested before.

    The potential energy behind one piston coming against something solid can twist the piston around its wrist pin and develop a brief but infinite effort (force) against the cylinder liner specially as it gets close to TDC; in this position the piston triggers a reaction such as a mechanical bomb due to the angular leverage effect resulting from the absence of stiffness and guidance of its skirt.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Caribou,

    Could you put your explanation in more simple terms. I understand a portion of what you are saying, but I would prefer to understand all of your posting.

    Thanks
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    I would opt for a single-brutal isotropic fragmentation instead of an accumulative-stress or just the 'one-of' stochastic incident because this engine is well engineered and has been thoroughly tested before.

    I think its the sudden deterioration from an excessive pressure condition comparable to a compressed fluid and not due to local wear or overheating induced by excess friction or bad lubrication; neither do I believe in the accumulation of (several) defective components. Cast iron has very little elasticity and will shatter under pressure.

    The potential energy behind one piston coming against something solid can twist the piston around its wrist pin and develop a brief but infinite effort (force) against the cylinder liner specially as it gets close to TDC; in this position the piston triggers a reaction such as a mechanical bomb due to the angular leverage effect resulting from the absence of stiffness and guidance of its skirt.

    The energy of the running engine is instantly blocked by the material of the piston head which by design is a disk or thin cylinder. This is a wedge and the aluminum alloy being elastic distributes the sudden effort in every direction.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    Hello Winter 2 and caribou1 ! This is farout. If you both remember I used to have the "GREEN BEAST crd" I am so sorry about your engine winter2. If I understand correctly there is still a stand off with you and the dealer in Flordia?

    My som has a dealers permiy in Missouri and he goes to the Manheim Dealers auction. I look up vehicles for him to see if a vehicle is worth buying from private parties and then take them to the auction, he flips vehicles. The Jeeps are pretty good but the Liberties are not bring as good as the other jeeps.

    I am blessed to have gotten Chrysler to have bought it back. Our Pacifica now has 141,000 miles and still going good. (now watch as soon as we brag on a vehicle it goes down)

    How is yiur crd doing caribou1? How much is fuel there?

    well wishing you both goo day's ahead this year.

    farout
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    Hi Farout,

    I start with the bad news: diesel fuel is sold 1.45Euro/Lt which is $7.5 / US gal here :sick:

    My little "de-rated" (150HP) CRD works very well, is on its 3rd set of tires after 10 years and starts flawlessly when the temperature reaches -15°C. There is a small leak on the lip-seal of the front differential and I will have to change my rear brake pads this year. Looking back, the extra 13HP you had didn't serve you well.
    She's on "mountain-duty" nowadays to take the grandkids+dog+the rest of us near Mt-Blanc :shades:
  • It's the EGR valve. I've heard of Green Engineering which basically takes it out of the picture. I get the yellow light every run this Winter when I take it for a ride. That yellow light drives me nuts. I get three codes the P0299, P1250 and P0401. One is turbo power derate, the other is for a solenoid valve being open and the third is the EGR valve. I used an ohmmeter on the solenoid valve and it is not open. I must have a bad wire. the others are derived quantities in the computer.

    Another idiosyncrasy includes the battery which has still has a current draw when shut down so that if it sits for a week or so without being run, it runs the battery down.

    It's also always had odd behavior with the anti-lock brakes. Sometimes I get the Anti lock brake light on when I am driving over ice. I have to stop and restart the engine to get rid of it.

    I've had tire problems lately. Moisture in my tire air has apparently done a number on the rims. I've had them all ground down and resealed.

    My parking brakes are gone. Per the manual, you have to remove the rear axles to replace them. This is a dumb design.

    Yes, I realize I can put the Jeep into 4WD to get better traction in snow. I also have had other vehicles with front wheel drive that have not required this added step for traction.

    I had my Dodge Dakota for 12 years and had few problems with it. I've had this Jeep for 8 years. I used to love it, but it's getting time for a break-up.

    My back has always got sore when taking long drives with the this vehicle.

    However,.....if I could get a good fix for that EGR valve, I'd be happy with it for a while. I wish I understood it's logic better.

    Hey! I had it long enough. I can complain some. :)
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    About the only thing I miss from the CRD is the torque. I was very adept at surfing the torque that the CRD produced. Only had the EGR replaced once. I kept it healthy using Caribou's method and the dealer tech said I was doing the right thing.

    Cleaned the MAF sensor ever six months and the manifold pressure sensor every oil change or 5K miles.

    With the new CRD coming in the Grand Cherokee I wonder if the exhaust gases will be pulled after the DPF to cycle through the EGR valve. Makes sense to me. All of the soot gets trapped in the DPF, not in the EGR.
  • That sensor is another thing. It's buried under all that wiring and you can't see it.

    I'll have to find out what Caribou's method is,......but he is in France. I don't even think he has an EGR valve.

    I was tempted to get a Subaru in the past. It's got a flat 4 like my old Beetle. I think it may be easier to maintain. I like to support the US auto industry too.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    Hi willysjeep,
    There is an egr valve on the MY-2003 engine: it is vacuum operated and uses the electro-valve that operates your variable vanes. My turbo uses a waste gate and is self 'balanced'. I plugged this vacuum pilot line 9 years ago (already), so my egr cannot move. Bi-annual technical inspections report a fully functional engine with very low exhaust opacity and low NOx which is surprisingly good according to the certified "EXPERT". BTW I have a K&N air filter cartridge washed once in 6 years.

    I don't have the mass flow metering and the Lambda sensor(s) that come with it, I have the basic common rail. If you could down-grade to an older / simpler version of the CPU your problems would be simplified. I believe this is what is offered by the "Green Diesel" modifications.

    The "nose-blowing" remedy was recommended by Renault road-side assistance technicians for their small diesels, many years ago: you simply run the engine to full acceleration and let it reach the upper RPMs during a brief period of time, but regularly. Renault also published a document explaining how to clean the egr; their egr was designed to be easily accessible.

    Last but not least: those who polluted the air we breathe on this side of the pond are now against diesels, even against those using particle filtration :confuse:
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,128
    edited March 2013
    Last but not least: those who polluted the air we breathe on this side of the pond are now against diesels, even against those using particle filtration

    I saw that story but it sounded more like a tax grab by raising diesel prices about 20 US cents a gallon.

    It would be better to give the newer "clean" diesels a break in order to get more of the old ones off the road.

    There's more over in the What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car? discussion.

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    Recently, the State of Virginia modified their gas tax (got rid of it) and increased their sales tax for gasoline. For diesel, they made that tax even steeper and if you purchase a hybrid car in Virginia, you pay an additional $100.00 in registration fees.

    Please tell me this is not crazy.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,796
    It would be better to give the newer "clean" diesels a break in order to get more of the old ones off the road.

    In the Peoples Republic of California, they are retrofitting older diesel buses and older trucks with DPF as well as upgraded computer control systems. Turns out that this is cheaper than buying a new diesel and nearly as effective in cleaning up the emissions.

    Some of these crazies who scream about diesel are morons and are against biodiesel also. They claim it uses food crops. Well, what about corn and ethanol? I did not realize that corn is no longer a food crop.
  • Hi
    That is what I did got a tune by green diesel,
    Try doing the nose-blowing,but did not work that well.
    To much city driving.
    SO FAR The jeep is running good after the tune.

    Anne
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,128
    edited March 2013
    Well, it's not all crazy since hybrid cars go further while using less gas. So the theory is that the hybrid owners aren't paying their fair share to use the road.

    And since diesels typically get better mpg than a similar gas vehicle, that could explain the higher diesel tax.

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,349
    edited March 2013
    Hi Steve,
    The official objective is an increase of 0.3 Euro per liter => 0.3 x 4 x 1.3 == $1.56 / US gal :mad:

    How long can a government pay for a majority of healthy retired fit and educated people who officially worked 35-40H per week, retired between 55 and 60 (mean age is 58), have an average life expectancy of 85 years, receive full medical care at no charge, buy foreign cars and most industrial goods from emerging countries?
    - Well ... World Health Organization apparently gave the government a gold 'handle' in a report stating that 40,000 death caused by lung cancer could be avoided every year if diesel fuel was abandoned. Electricity will also go up by 30% because other EU countries have higher prices.

    The average commuting distance is now almost 30 Miles and 26,000,000 people are concerned everyday.

    PSA group recently developed a diesel hybrid but who will buy such a clever vehicle now?
    Electric cars have no clear future when 25% of voters impose to stop nuclear power plants in a 50/50 political scene.

    60% of all vehicles registered in France are diesels and we are encouraged to replace them by new gassers. But we are in a recession cycle and people have less money to invest, so can they buy an equivalent vehicle?
    - I think not: the Liberty CRD (Cherokee here) already has its 'green-CO2' registration penalty of 6,000 Euros ;)
    Liberty Jeep bonus-malus link
    I can have my engine, brakes and transmission repaired for such a cost and no money blocked by credit charges nor any further depreciation.

    Now imagine a layer of 40,000 cheerful and healthy people being added year after year to an aging population, it would need more roads more cars more money more electricity more fuel and perhaps a more clever government :P
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,128
    edited March 2013
    The link I saw said "Currently, diesel is about 20 cents cheaper per liter than gasoline, but France’s new tax regimen would bring diesel costs in line with gasoline." (The Truth About Cars).

    A $1.56 a US gallon increase does put a whole 'nother slant on it. Didn't know about the Liberty CRD "bonus".

    Interesting slant you've put your finger on though - drive a dirty diesel rig, kill more people and help the economy. :D

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

Sign In or Register to comment.