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Transmission problems with Lexus ES?

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Comments

  • pwgilbertpwgilbert Member Posts: 16
    Being in the market for an Avalon or ES330, I found this forum interesting. My '05 Honda Pilot has a disconcerting pause-1/2 second?- when downshifting from 5'th to 4'th while merging or passing at 40/60 mph or so. No other car I have ever driven has had that hesitation (except back in the days of manuals with solenoid operated overdrives/downshifts). After reading some of the posts, I wonder if it is because it is the first car I've owned with a 5 speed automatic and it is the nature of the beast?? Or it has something to do with it learning my driving habits as some others have suggested? Not serious enough to make me regret the purchase--just irritating. Haven't approached the dealer about it yet. We drove an Avalon today and I saw no problems with the way it drove. But of course it didn't represent my normal driving patterns either-- No freeway on ramp merging--no tromping on it to pass on a 2 lane road--no stop and go congestion. And only a few miles over streets designated by the sales guy. Will pursue this further before deciding since we have time to make that decision.
    Regarding Octane requirements, my '86 Toyota Cressida required 87 Octane, but recommended 91 for "improved performance". Never bought into that and it still ran perfectly at 186,000 miles using only 87. My Pilot also says "87", but "91" when towing. Now I'm confused. My '94 Cad STS called for 91, and the Acura MDX, although very close to the Pilot, also requires 91. Are the new engines actually so sophisticated they can advance the timing under load to enhance power, and provide better fuel economy under "normal" conditions, and yet at the same time recognize potential pre-detonation because of lower Octane and correct for it by automatically retarding the spark?? At 20 cents per gallon difference it could be significant for many? I don't put that many miles on a car any more so the extra cost isn't that big a deal but I grew up believing higher Octane than your engine required (no pre-detonation) was a waste of money. Burning a hole in a piston because of "pinging" or "knocking" costs a whole bunch more!! Been there done that sadly a long time ago.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    One of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette articles about the hesitation problem that ran last year mentioned that NHTSA was looking into the problem but I have never heard anything about it since.

    Scoti, if you do a search of the NHTSA database you will see that the Pittsburg Post article completely misinterpreted the investigtion you posted about. Not surprising when you consider that Paper's reputation is only a few steps from a tabloid Yes, NHTSA did an investigation involving electronic throttle control on Toyota-Lexus, BUT, it pertained to Unintended Accelleration, not hesitation. NHTSA did an investigation in 2004 for that accelleration issue but closed it shortly afterwards. Because of a 2005 petition by a widely known consumer advocate (the same one as in 2004), another investigation was opened in August 05. It has not been closed yet, but there should be some word on that shortly. It will be closed also because no new information is forthcoming. There never really was an investigation about hesitation. You have promoted this article more than a dozen times so you might want to think about not doing so in future. It isn't true.
    More advice. Don't believe everything you find in the media.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Because of a 2005 petition by a widely known consumer advocate (the same one as in 2004), another investigation was opened in August 05.

    It looks like NHTSA would reach the same conclusion as the first investigation. That the complaints do not warrant a recall due to safety issue.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Apparently there were two accident reports in 2004 of unintended accelleration which started NHTSA's investigation. NHTSA looked beyond safety issues, according to documentation accompanying their investigation in 2004. The entire electronic control system was analyzed and repeatedly tested. No improper operation or any defects were found. Apparently the unexpected accelleration was caused by driver action. The petitioner for the 2005 investigation is apparently the same person who requested it in 2004. I cannot fathom why this hesitation issue keeps getting blown out of proportion. It just isn't all that big an issue, yet we keep getting reminded about it with references like two old newspaper articles which aren't accurate. More like somebody's out to make Toyota look bad.
    I cannot find any mention of an investigation into "Toyota or Lexus engine-transmission hesitation" anywhere at the NHTSA site. I may be wrong, but I don't think there ever was such an investigation.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Here's a statement I found by Toyota and Lexus about the "Unintended Accelleration" condition which may help to clarify it further:

    Reports for Camry, Camry Solara And ES 300/330 Throttle Control System

    April 13, 2005 The auto industry has experienced a long history of isolated reports of alleged sudden acceleration, involving vehicles of virtually every make. Numerous investigations going back many decades have consistently suggested that these incidents were unrelated to vehicle malfunction.

    In its current preliminary evaluation of Camry, Solara and ES 300 vehicles, NHTSA has recently revised the number of complaints under consideration from 37 down to 12, concluding that correct application of the brakes would have controlled the vehicle. None of the complaints involve any injuries.

    Customer safety remains our highest priority. We are carefully studying the remaining complaints, in cooperation with NHTSA, to determine the facts in each instance. But this process requires time and care. Any speculation about possible causes would be premature and counterproductive.

    It is important to note that no specific defect has been identified by NHTSA, nor is there any recall of these vehicles. Customers who have any questions or concerns should contact the Toyota Customer Experience Center at 1-800-331-4331 or Lexus Customer Satisfaction line at 1-800-25-LEXUS.

    Here's a 2004 quote from a Consumer Reports article on the same subject:

    NHTSA Closes Probe of Unintended Acceleration in Toyota, Lexus Models

    July 28, 2004
    Federal safety investigators have closed their probe into reports of unintended acceleration in 2002 and 2003 Toyota Camry, Camrty Solara and Lexus ES300 models. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) opened the investigation after receiving reports of 30 accidents, including one in which a pedestrian was alledged to be injured.

    The probe centered around the cars' electronic throttle control. Many newer cars transmit acceleration signals electronically rather than using the traditional movable steel cable.

    NHTSA said it analyzed many of the cars involved in the mishaps and found nothing abnormal with the throttle controls. It said sudden surges are sometimes caused by drivers who are unfamiliar with their new vehicles.
  • scoti1scoti1 Member Posts: 676
    The unintended acceleration is a separate issue. The article about hesitation that references the NHTSA investigation came out in Feb. 2005, well before the issue you are referencing.

    http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=32627


    Feb. 5--The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration plans to look into a transmission hesitation problem in certain Lexus and Toyota models to determine whether to go forward with a full investigation .


    It is possible the NHTSA decided not to "go forward with a full investigation". Soon after this article is when Toyota announced the new software upgrade. That could have satisfied NHTSA.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Scoti, it should be pretty clear by now there was no investigation about Hesitation by NHTSA. I really didn't intend to split hairs with you on this, but I repeat: there is no record of NHTSA investigation about "Hesitation" for any model of Toyota or Lexus, anywhere. Also, I did qualify my posts as locating only "Unintended Acceleration", nothing about "Hesitation", and that the two were "separate issues".
    I cannot say whether or not you, the Pittsburg Post, or anyone else intentionally misinterpreted the announcement, but I believe many are getting tired of seeing it repeated endlessly as though it did happen when it did not.
  • billranbillran Member Posts: 113
    In the article Scoti referenced there is also the following info which seems to be often conveniently overlooked. I doubt it will make a difference though as there is obviously a bias against Toyota in some of the posts. hylyner, I agree with everything you and motownusa have written btw.

    A search of NHTSA records and interviews with Consumer Reports magazine also show owners of other car makes are suffering from the same hesitation problem, including BMW's 3 Series, Ford Explorers and Escapes, and Dodge Durango 4x4.

    David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut, said the magazine's testers have encountered the same problems in the Audi A6 2.7T, the Audi Allroad, the Mazda6 equipped with the V-6 engine, and the Volkswagen Jetta 1.8T.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Yes, you are quite correct verifying other maufacturers have had complaints of hesitation with their DBW systems. It's been raised any number of times in discussions, but for some reason is quickly dismissed and marginalized with comments like "But Toyota gets more than others."
    Having seen two or more months worth of mostly hyped up rhetoric about it, I think we now know why this gets said.
  • atoewsatoews Member Posts: 637
    After agonizing for several years on this issue, I think it is important to keep a focus on what is important, and that is whether Lexus will fix this problem in our vehicles.

    Clearly, the answer is NO. This vehicle has been "out" now for almost 5 years, and Toyota still has not even admitted that there is a problem. One can extrapolate that to conclude that Toyota will not even come close to getting to where they will pay for a recall or a very expensive drive train redesign to fix existing vehicles. It is simply NOT going to happen.

    As far as whether this problem is "widespread", I think that whether this problem exists in all vehicles is a topic that should be put to bed. I can repeat the problem is every vehicle that I drive (and I've driven many loaners), from 2002, 2003, 2004 2005 and 2006. The PROBLEM is in ALL of them. For those of you who claim not to have the problem, trust me, I could repeat it in YOUR car. (The symptom does vary slightly from one vehicle to the next however.)

    And don't bother waiting until the 2007 comes out - I'd bet a LOT of money that the problem will be there, too.
  • montiemontie Member Posts: 10
    It gets better every day Gents. I'll be leaving your fair city of Cincinnati Tuesday and gonna miss this discussion. It could easy get to be compelling. Internet back home is bloody rotten and it takes forever to download a site like this much less have your post sent. I have learned lots in a short time, especially as billran fears I too suspicion a definite bias says against Toyota is alive and well hereabouts. I wonder why this is? Says hyliner, more like somebody's trying to make Toyota look bad perhaps? Too bad, because they sell brilliant cars and trucks where I come from. Good bye all, and thanks for letting me butt in. You have a great country here.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    of the "heap", you're sure to get "rained" on.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Good point!!!!
  • tmarttmart Member Posts: 2,233
    " The PROBLEM is in ALL of them. For those of you who claim not to have the problem, trust me, I could repeat it in YOUR car."

    If your statement is correct, that sounds like the driver is the problem and not the car!
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Another good point!!!
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    that would be an erroneous conclusion.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    well "science says" that a conclusion should be repeatable no matter who does it. Match + gunpowder equals explosion even if the experimenter (gunpowder skeptic) believes otherwise. Of course science presumes gunpowder is not under water.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Well i don't know how well the "Match + Gunpowder" analogy applies in this situation. Person A claims he/she can reproduce the symptom in every test ( in this case that would be the car) while person B, C, and D claims the symptom isn't reproducible in 99.9% of the driving condition. I think all automatic transmission can be made to hesitate under certain extreme driving condition. Being the owner of an 03 Camry V6 with a 5 speed automatic I can claim that the car has never let me down. If i need to speed up right after slowing down to say 15 to 20 mph I give the pedal a firm push and off she goes. Have owned the car for almost 3 years and I didn't ever feel the transmission was unresponsive or anything like that. And yes Toyota does get more publicity than Honda, Audi, BMW, Volkswagon because of its size and success.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    the implication is that it is the driver's fault for not driving in a manner to avoid this behavior.

    if the person was instructed to modify their driving style to accomodate the design of the system (ala much like "stomp and steer" with ABS), then we might point to operator "misuse" of the system at root cause.

    clearly though a number of posters indicate NO hesitation, and a number of other posters indicate that with a number of vehicles and many years of driving experience with AT drivetrains, their vehicle just doesn't operate as expected (for some just an annoyance) or to an extreme, in a manner where they feel safe.

    if the driver should be aggressive with the throttle, or conversely gentle with the throttle and/or avoid manuvers like merging, accelerating quickly to pass during lane changes, or slow and re-apply throttle to cross from a median, then you'd think the manufacturer would prescribe how the vehicle is to be operated in those scenarios.

    but they don't, and never would because it (the hesitation) may not be an intentional artifact of the design or the actions of the driver, but a defect in software, hardware, or both. i wouldn't doubt driving style may contribute to the severity, but not be at root cause of the behavior.
  • billranbillran Member Posts: 113
    In the past, I have never down played the concerns of those few people who said they actually had a problem. I have said before they seemed to me to be sincere and credible and I have always believed that they were experiencing problems with their car that I do not have in mine.

    If the statement " The PROBLEM is in ALL of them. For those of you who claim not to have the problem, trust me, I could repeat it in YOUR car." is correct however, that would a different situation. I drive my car daily in all kinds of traffic. In addition, I have deliberately tried to duplicate the behavior mentioned here, with no success. My car drives great, with no noticeable hesitation under any conditions. And as I have said before, I have two coworkers whose cars also perform fine. I know that 3 cars is a statistically insignificant sample, but I think it is representative of the thousands of other owners who also consider their car's performance to be fine.

    So, if indeed our cars perform identically to those reporting the problem, then what is the answer? Driving style? Driver's perception? Or then there was one person's suggestion that the people who did not think their car had a problem were not smart enough to know it.

    If my car has the identical problem as those who are complaining, then I will tell you that I don't consider it a problem, and I am not surprised there has been no recall. It drives just fine, and I like to think that I am smart enough to recognize a problem if I had it.
  • shocasershocaser Member Posts: 36
    You know, I am tired of being told that the hesitation problem with my ES 330 is my fault. Let me give an example to explain why some, even many, people do not see this problem. I drive alot in stop and go, bumper to bumper traffic. I also occasionally drive my car aggressively. The hesitation issue usually shows in my 2004 when going at slow speeds (5 - 15 mph) and doing sudden acceleration to change lanes or when driving at higher speeds (50 - 60) and doing sudden acceleration to change lanes. Many people can drive a car for 10 years and never once do this maneuver. Until an emergency. This does not mean that it is a driver problem. The problem is inherent in the design of the car.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Well all I can say is that the NHTSA is the final arbitrator of what constitutes a safety hazard. They have already looked into it twice and concluded that the transmission (as much as you think it constitutes a safety problem) issue just doesn't rise to a safety concern. If you still think the car isn't operating as desired maybe you should think about trading it in for a BMW M5 or Porsche 911 Turbo ;)
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    User777, you stated about my post: "That would be an erronious conclusion"
    To explain, please understand I didn't mean to "conclude" anything in saying "good point" to someone else's comment about "perhaps it might be a driver problem." What was intended is "that point is something which cannot be ignored" in discussing this issue. It may or may not be a factor, and cannot be discounted as a possiblity out of hand. It isn't "erronious" to have it added to the list of possibilities.
    This is not saying everyone who says they've had hesitation is solely to blame for the experience either.
    Since my adventure into this issue two months ago, an impressive amount of rhetoric, theories, speculation, and and MANY emotional condemnations have been posted about it.
    I haven't yet seen any solutions which come close to what could be called progress--other than the human element seems to play a major part in posts condemning it. There always seem to be an abundence of anti Toyota rhetoric which leads me to believe there really are people out there who for whatever reason just want to make Toyota look bad.
    Until I see fewer posts like "this car sucks", or "they screwed up big time", or " I can get them all to do it", or "tired of hearing there's no problem",or "it's in all of them" etc. etc, my thoughts about what's going on here won't change much. To date there has been far too much irrationality associated with this issue to "conclude" anything, other than some people don't seem to like Toyota very much.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    nice post. you seem to be asserting that you've tried a number of times to create the problem and can't, and that you're smart enough and perceptive enough to know you've got hesitation if it existed. you've said you have none, and therefore, someone would normally conclude your vehicle differs in some manner from the vehicles driven by these other people. your style wouldn't be that different from other people anyway, but even if it were, you just can't seem to replicate the issue.

    personally, i don't believe the poster indicating they could make any vehicle do it. i don't believe this is an issue with the inherent design.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    imagine for a moment that the vehicle and the experiences related are yours (not someone elses)... imagine you are reading something from hylynerX and perhaps a few others whose belief requires some threshold of objective information be met, when you cannot possibly provide them with the information at the level they require to conceed the point.

    imagine you've reported the issue to your dealership on a number of service visits who have been told "they all do it" and "this is normal", and you've even gone so far as to pursue arbitration to get out of the vehicle because you know something is fundamentally wrong.

    i don't think ANYONE posting in the hesitation forum which was closed has or had motivation to make Toyota look bad. some of the posters love their toyota except for this, and further, have been long time toyota loyalists.

    this classification of posts (ala rhetoric, emotional condemnation, irrationality) is how we got in trouble before. i'm not playing that game twice.

    theories, speculation... sure, presented in a sincere, open and honest manner may be enough to move the conversation along and for someone to connect the dots and help everyone's understanding.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Well, I see your point and freely admit if I had been in those shoes I would probably not feel too good about it.
    My way of dealing with those kinds of problems would definitely take a different route than cartalk complaint forums though. I'm decidedly too pragmatic by nature, I guess. Never did like playing games!
    That said, the only posts I classified (as you said): "emotional, irrational, rhetoric, etc" are those which decidedly fit the description, and there have been plenty of them as even you must admit.
    There also has been (as you said) some sincere, open, and honest discussion about this issue. Perhaps I neglected to credit those accordingly, and I apologize for that omission. Generally though, there's been far to little to date, and often when it does happen, the inevitable "make Toyota look bad" posts have come along and derailled many a good discussion.
    All of the above aside, I sincerely hope you don't still feel I was "erroniously concluding" that all of this problem is driver related.
  • billranbillran Member Posts: 113
    user777, I agree with you regarding whether the hesitation issue affects all similar cars. Based on some of the descriptions provided of the hesitation, I would find it very hard to believe that it is in all similar drive trains. Mine certainly does not exhibit it and I have tried to drive it under the conditions described.

    I see that AP just put out a report that says that the Camry is the best selling car in America for the fourth year in a row, and has been for 8 of the last 9 years. I don't know what the sales ratio of 4 to 6 cylinders is, but either way there are a lot of the V6-5 speed drive trains out there. And, since the drive train we are discussing is on several of Toyota's top sellers (ES330, RX330, V6 Camry, Highlander and Sienna) I would hazard a guess that there may be more cars on the road with this specific drive train than any other single drive train made by any other manufacturer.

    It is hard for me to imagine that all of these hundreds of thousands of cars built over the last few years could have a serious design/safety flaw without an enormous uproar. In addition to my limited sample of three, I recall one poster saying that he had surveyed several owners he spotted at gas stations and other places and was not able to find a single person who said they had the problem.

    So I believe that indeed it is a real problem for real people, but a fairly small percentage and by no means the widespread safety issue that some would contend.

    Wwest, I believe your "top of the heap" comment is right on target.

    http://www.newsday.com/business/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-popular-camry,0,2800194.- - story?coll=sns-ap-business-headlines
  • shocasershocaser Member Posts: 36
    Trust me, I have seriously thought about getting rid of the car. I would love a 911 Turbo, but do not trust myself enough to drive one. I do have one question, though. If this problem does not exist (and Lexus/Toyota have repeatedly said it does not), why did Lexus/Toyota come out with a fix? When I had the Firmware upgrade done on the car, it corrected alot of the problem. But if there is no problem, why fix it?
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    If this problem does not exist (and Lexus/Toyota have repeatedly said it does not), why did Lexus/Toyota come out with a fix?

    Shocaser, please consider this answer to your question--it has been raised by others.
    First, Toyota/Lexus has acknowledged the issue, and publicly notified the World that a TSB is available. A press release was issued about it last year. Basically in layman's terms, what they said was that it is a normal characteristic of their DBW systems; it will feel "different" and may take getting used to for some; it is designed that way to protect the engine; and for those who want it done there's a TSB which can be applied to modify the characteristic.
    Second, you should recognize the difference between a TSB and a Recall. TSB's are simply a service bulletin to dealer service personnel to define a specific service procedure they should use if a customer reports a problem or wishes an adjustment to be made in some system or component. Examples of TSBs would be window adjustments, body part fit and finish corrections,etc. TSBs are usually created to provide service personnel an approved method to repair or adjust assembly line problems. Sometimes they are created as an approved way to replace defective components also. In the case of the hesitation TSB, there is no "defect" involved, it's an "adjustment" issue.
    If there was a defect in every vehicle produced, there would be a recall campaign. In this instance, only a very small number of complaints are involved, and many of those are apparently being corrected through the TSB you refer to.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Okay, over the next week or so as you drive along, pay attention to how many drivers rest their left foot on the brake pedal while cruising along. Now, for the following week pick any one of the more popular marques and do the same thing, how many of the drivers of that marque do you see resting their left foot on the brake pedal?

    Relatively small number overall, right?

    Now lets say that the manufacturer of the marque you picked realizes that this practice is rather foolish (fuelish??) and decides to disable the accelerator pedal any time the brakes are applied.

    Guess how many, and which, drivers would immediately notice...!!??

    And now...

    Where would the fault lie?

    The manufacturer modified the engine control firmware in a perfectly logical and reasonable way. Will the owners affected scream and shout or will they adapt their driving style?

    I'm not by any means trying to remove or allay responsibility for the engine hesitation symptom from Toyota or Lexus, I still quite firmly believe their engine/transaxle firmware design has an inherent flaw that will or can be hazardous under the right (WRONG) circumstances.

    Their 5-speed transaxles must work reliably for 100% of the owners, not 99.99%
  • atoewsatoews Member Posts: 637
    Love the comment that it must be a driver problem! :-)

    While I do not think "it" is any driver's fault, I think there are two issues that cause folks to have varying degrees of irritation:

    1) The degree to which the various drivers perceive the seriousness of the symptoms. For example, when I have repeated the symptom for others, many say, "I feel it but it is no big deal."

    AND

    2) Other aspects of the car that cause the symptoms to manifest themselves to different degrees. My car, for example, behaves much worse SINCE the TSB fix. Since virtually everyone says the TSB incorporation helps the car, I can't help but think that there is something else in the way they tuned up my car that is contributing to my perception that the TSB fix made my car worse.
  • atoewsatoews Member Posts: 637
    As I said in a previous post, although I believe all vehicles have the problem, not all vehicles exhibit the symptom in the same way.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Sorry, there is no such thing as 100% perfection. Life isn't perfect; and any mechanical component certainly isn't. Having said that I think this general discussion about transmission problem doesn't belong in this board. Maybe there should be a new forum that exclusively deals with what a transmission is or isn't suppose to do.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Toyota and Lexus 5-speed transaxles should operate reliably and safely for 99.9999999999999999999999% of the public not just 99.99999999999999999999999%
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Usually Wwest's opinions are quite worthy of consideration if not technically astute, (perhaps 80 point reliability?) but I reckon this one might be a product of overindulgence during yesterday afternoon's Happy Hour.
    However, if Wwest could find documented evidence showing that ANY automaker meets an expectation THAT unreasonable,
    I would be inclined to support it.
    Otherwise we'll just have to regard it as an unintentional indiscretion. Wwest, it's just not you.
    All tongue in cheek aside, NOBODY builds 'em that good!!
  • lmacmillmacmil Member Posts: 1,758
    "This new transmission also uses a quick-response, low-friction clutch pack for enhanced fuel economy; an ultra-flat, low-inertia torque converter for high transmission efficiency; a set of high-response, low-slip clutch packs and new electronic and hydraulic control systems that incorporate an intelligent shift control that learns driver's driving style and selects gears based on that style.

    As a result of this development, transmission kickdown response was cut to 0.5 seconds, more than twice as fast as the response of the transmission this new one replaces."

    One could interpret that as tacit acknowledgement of an issue. FWIW, my '05 Camry SE-V6 is much better than my wife's '04 HL V6 on the hesitation issue but neither is a safety hazard in my opinion.
  • atoewsatoews Member Posts: 637
    Well, "perfect" may not exist but virtually perfect, or world class, does and quite frankly, if it were not for this annoying drive train issue, I'd consider the car virtually perfect, particularly for the price.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    if it were not for this annoying drive train issue, I'd consider the car virtually perfect
    One can only wish what you suggest were true. Can you point to any automaker in the world today (or in the past) who makes "virtually perfect" products? For that matter, can you point to ANY man made entity that qualifies as "virtually perfect?" What does "virtually perfect" mean anyway? Are you talking "almost perfect" or "approximately perfect", or something that's "close to perfect?"
    Frankly, I would guess there isn't such a thing as "virtually perfect" unless you're dealing in the "virtual world." The term "world class" means little, except in the world of marketing.
    Expectations of perfection raised to such a "virtually perfect" level is just a recipe for guaranteed disappointment. No wonder you are annoyed.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    Perfect in the sense of ideal/ not realistically achievable, or meets the customer's expectations.

    I don't think anyone expects perfection, just a very responsive, customer-centric support system to get issues resolved. This is one issue many cannot get resolved.

    I imagine if you've got a problem with your vehicle like this, and you're constantly being told "they all do it", "this is normal" and you know this isn't true - and the characteristic or behavior is anywhere from bothersome to what you consider impacting your safety, maybe the behavior is initially better after a re-flash and gets worse, or it doesn't change post-reflash, or it is worse right away post-flash - you're going to be mightily dissapointed in the manufacturer you believe is number one with the best products.

    I agree, in the context that you're using perfect, this isn't an appropriate expectation.

    However, it is completely appropriate to expect the support structure to fix the vehicle, or replace it.

    Apparently they can't do the former (issue a fix) for all owners (probably because there are different problems exhibiting similar symptoms, but the reflash only addresses a sub-set of them), and w.r.t. the latter, for one reason or another they have judged it doesn't make sense to replace the population of vehicles that the TSB doesn't solve.

    My expectation, if I were a Toyota loyalist and had complained a number of times about the ride and had the TSB work performed but it wasn't fixed, would expect the manufacturer or dealership network (via special incentives from manufacturer) to place my family in an updated model without the behavior... under the most favorable, customer-centric economic terms possible.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Much of what you speak of makes "perfect sense"---albeit "in a perfect world"--too bad we all don't live in one.
    That said, your expectations (re what should be done for you and your family in a similar situation) are not very likely to be met. Better be prepared for some serious annoyance in your life too.
  • shocasershocaser Member Posts: 36
    Trust me, I know the difference between a TSB and a recall. I have 17,000 miles on my ES and have had 4 different TSB's applied to my car. The last time I have my car in for service they applied a TSB and told me that the problem that I had complained about had been fixed. The only problem is, I had NOT complained. I suspect a recall in disguise.
    I am very aware of the history of the transmission problems with my car. I have simply resigned myself to a sub-par design. The fact that Lexus/Toyota has to build a hesitation into the design of the transmission to protect the engine raises many questions in my mind. What is wrong with the engine/transmission combination to require this protection?
  • billranbillran Member Posts: 113
    Whatever hesitation is "built in" to protect the drivetrain is not an issue for me or the thousands of other very satisfied owners whose cars drive just fine. It is undetectable.

    The hesitation that is the source frustration for you and a small percentage of other owners is obviously something else.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Would that mean that previous transaxles took more than a second to downshift as needed? So inadvertently requiring an immediate second downshift would require more than 2 seconds?

    And with 4 downshift speeds to select three inadvertent downshifts wouldn't be out of the question......
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    What is wrong with the engine/transmission combination to require this protection?
    The assumption that "something is wrong" makes very little sense. Does "something have to be wrong" when protection is present in any scenario? We put oil in an engine to protect it. We drive carefully (one hopes!) to protect ourselves and others. We use sunscreen to protect against getting skin cancer.
    "Sub par design?" I don't believe that's a supportable conclusion, unless one can show how!!
    "Hesitation built into the design?" Evidently there are lots of drivers who don't see this as a bad thing, so it may not be correct to dismiss it as a universal curse.
    Is it possible that perhaps expectations might be just a little bit unreasonable, and that's got a lot to do with annoyances we're seeing expressed in these forums?
  • shocasershocaser Member Posts: 36
    As I have said before, I am tired of being told that I am the problem. All cars have oil. Do all cars have a built in hesitation to "protect" the engine? I understand that you may not notice the problem, or may view the hesitation as not BEING a problem. However, I view it as a problem.
    If expecting my 2004 Lexus ES 330 to drive and perform at least as well as my 1994 Ford Taurus did, than I guess my expectations are too high.
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    One of my friends has this vehicle and finds its transmission performance substandard and very annoying. Some GM transmissions are more responsive.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    First, please read post #923.

    Second, this "protect the drivetrain" statement is likely VERY real.

    When driving a stick shift how often do you think you could rev the engine up before releasing the clutch pedal and not have a "premature" clutch failure?

    What Toyota and Lexus have done with the DBW system is nothing more or less than what stick shift drivers have done for ages to preserve clutch life.

    I think what we need to be focussing on here is the high priority the engine/transaxle ECU firmware gives to upshifting into a gear ratio wherein converter lockup is/can be used to extend fuel economy to the nth degree.

    If the transaxle could somehow be prevented from upshifting so quickly then the subsequent downshifts would no longer be an issue.

    And my apologies in advance to those of you experiencing this hesitation symptom but I have now come to believe it does have something to do with the uniqueness of your personal driving style or habits.

    I'm not by any means trying to let Toyota nor Lexus off the hook, they should be working to find out just what flaw, "trapdoor" exists in their firmware that allows these instances to occur.

    But be that as it may here is my thought.

    The DBW accelerator pedal has two positional sensors for redundancy. The two sensor outputs are always at a different voltage by at least 0.4 volts for the same pedal position to protect/detect shorts between the two.

    Since the sensor output for a given pedal position is unique to each set of sensors shipped and also unique between the two sensors themselves the engine/transaxle ECU must "LEARN", after the vehicle is shipped, over time and distance, exactly what the differential voltage between the two actually turns out to be. It then uses that voltage diff'l to continuously check the validity of the primary gas pedal position sensor output.

    The above paragraph is founded on the statements taken directly from the 2004 RX330 Lexus shop manual.

    But.

    If the ECU must learn what the diff'l voltage between the two gas pedal position sensor actually turns out to be then that implies, heavily, that it must "learn" the sensors' voltage output for a "neutral" and "WOT".

    But, just how does it go about learning these parameters "on-the-fly...??

    My guess would be that it starts out by assuming that if the transaxle shift lever is in park or neutral or the brake pedal is applied then the gas pedal is at the neutral position....

    How else?

    What would happen if the ECU "settled" on a gas pedal "neutral" position using the shifter position initially, or even the brake pedal, and then a left foot braking driver stepped into the vehicle for a Sunday afternoon drive?

    Would it eventually recalibrate the gas pedal neutral position to agree with the "constant" slight foot pressure of the left foot braker?

    Just how confused would the ECU now get if the driver then inadvertently FULLY released the gas pedal?

    If that were to happen, and I for one am now certain that it might, for the next few miles the ECU wouldn't have a good idea just where the gas pedal neutral position was/is!

    Do I remember correctly that some posters who are experiencing the symptom had it go away for a few days after disconnecting the battery to reset the system parameters?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    It has too often happened to me that the floor mat creeps up/forward to the point that the front of the mat is actually laying on, and slightly depressing, the gas pedal.

    I've even had a couple of unintended acceleration instances that were caused by this, floor mat laying over the gas pedal but behind the brake pedal, wherein heavy brake application inadvertently applied a significant level of pressure to the gas pedal.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    I guess my expectations are too high
    I believe you. All I'm saying is perhaps that's the reason you view it as a problem.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Second, this "protect the drivetrain" statement is likely VERY real.
    Wwest, I agree with you that it may very well be REAL.
    That said, is this an indication there's something wrong with the engine or transmission? (as shocaser has implied) Personally I think not.
    Please shocaser, this isn't saying hesitation is your fault either, so you needn't be "Tired of hearing that it is." I don't think anyone has ever implied that.
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