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Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

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Comments

  • Were?

    I don't see any test between the two. Do you have a link? I know they tested them seperatley.

    The STS is a real nice car. You should read what Edmunds had to say about the V. Most people seem to like the car.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The comparison test was the STS_V, BMW M5, and Mercedes CLS55 AMG. The comparison test results are somewhat different from single test results which is what the Grand Prix test was.

    From what I have read the V seems to be a better car for normal daily driving than the M5 would be. For me the basic STS is closer to the mark and from the price standpoint, the CTS is closer. The Grand Prix is probably more in my actual price range but I expect to drive my SLS for another few years to bring the depreciation into line with my annual expectations ($4000).
  • untill December or January and get rebates that make the STS more affordable. Its a wonderful car.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    Has anyone heard anything?
    I had hoped that (at least) the STS V8s - 1SF \ 1SG, at least - might be offered with the new 6 speed automatic trans. for 2007. As GM ramps up production.
    This might mean I'd take another look . . .
    And I wonder what they'll do with their pricing?
    Rumors?
    Thanks,
    - Ray
    Thinking it is still a bit short of 'wonderful', but certainly interesting . . .
  • Why do you think its short on wonderful?

    The New 6 speed may be good from a marketing point of view, but don't forget it already has the french made (GM) 5 speed unit that is also in the SRX.

    I would understand if only 4 speeds were offerred, but 5 is plenty fine to me. The main thing is that it has the manumatic mode and the adjustable shocks to make things really interesting.

    Im sure it will come, but I dont think by next year. GM might wait untill its mid-cycle refresh.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The 5 speed automatic is better than the 4 speeds, but the overdrive ratio of 0.75 is not much, and the passing gear of 1.6 is not ideal either. Third gear is exactly half way between first and fifth, so it is not that far off.

    The six speed automatic (on the _V models) offers gears that are closer together at the high gear end. There are two overdrive ratios, third gear (passing) is a better 1.53:1 and forth is 1.15:1. With a low gear ratio of 4:1, an axle ratio can be choosen for both good performance and decent fuel economy. My opinion is that instead of axle ratios of about 3.25 to 3.50 :1 that are required with the five speed automatic, an axle ratio of about 3:1 is good for both better performance and fuel economy. Actually, 2.93 to 3.08 :1 axle ratios would be a good range. The V6 axle ratios probably need to run more to 3.23:1.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    There are a number of reasons why I think the STS is a bit less than Wonderful. Many are documented in the test drive reports I posted here when the first 1SE and the first 1SF arrived at my dealer. One specifically is that the 5 speed automatic does not behave quite as I had hoped & expected. Reviews I have seen on the 6 speed (in other GM vehicles, including the Corvette) suggest that it is an improvement in ways beyond the additional ratio. We will see if \ when one is available for test in an STS.

    And I want to be clear here: I am not saying that the STS is bad. Not the ‘regular’ V8 versions, or the -V. There is much to like, and again I applaud Caddy for both bringing the STS (RWD V8 and all) to market as well as producing the much lower volume -V variant. The STS is just not quite what I was hoping for, in several areas important to me. Many details are in my previous posts.

    My basic issues with the STS fall into 2 categories.

    Cat. 1: The Pricing. The bundling of \ availability of options I care about leaves me believing that the STS is not the best cost \ benefit proposition – for me. Specifically, as things stand right now, the 1SF package includes 2 rather expensive options (NAV and HID-s) that are of no particular interest to me. And I’d prefer not to pay something like $3K (best I can estimate at MSRP) for them, in order to receive several items that I would want – and that are not available on the 1SE. (A final drive ratio I'd want, for 1 non-negotiable example.) And another example is that the option code QAF \ ‘Performance Handling Package, includes Tires, P235/45ZR18 18" Michelin Pilot Sport, front and P255/45ZR18 rear (summer only tires) and Performance Brake Linings ($795.00)’ is ONLY available on the 1SG = MSRP well over $60K. None of the other V8 versions are available with such performance-oriented tires. By comparison \ For example: Last I knew, Audi offers this sort of setup as a stand-alone option on the A6. And the BMW 5 series offers a Sport Pkg (a bit more expensive, but also more comprehensive) on any 530i – regardless of other configured options or packages. I am not suggesting that the options in the Caddy packages have no value, just that I really want to select only the options I want. And pay only for those. The STS strikes me as the ‘bundling’ concept run amok.

    [ On the BMW 5, according to their web site, this Pkg includes: Sport suspension calibration, Active Roll Stabilization(ARS), 18x 8.0 Star Spoke (Styling 123) alloy wheels, 245/40R-18 performance run-flat tires, Shadowline exterior trim, 12-way power front sport seats with power adjustable thigh support ]

    As one other data point: When last I was checking, the Infiniti M45 Sport with 2 options (rosewood on the dash and XM or Sirius) as I’d buy one had an MSRP of very close to $51K. And it has everything I’d want. The STS V8 1SF was over $58K – and still lacked items I’d want – the Sport Suspension, for example. $7 or $8,000 is enough of a difference to matter – to me. And at that MSRP, I’d still not have been able to add the option of the Performance Handling Option to the STS. Annoying. I have driven 3 or 4 M45 Sports. If someone (today) put a gun to my head and demanded: “Choose between an Infiniti M45 Sport (no options) and an STS V8 as well equipped as possible for the same real-world Transaction Price as the M45.” - I would choose the M45 Sport immediately, without hesitation and without any reservations. [ Another interesting difference here: Powertrain warrantee on the M45: 72 mo 70,000 miles. ]

    Cat. 2: The Product. A few examples – and focusing on only 1 competitor here. In my test driving, the M45 Sport manumatic function works much better than the STS’s. The M45 Sport even does a decent job of ‘rev matching’ on downshifts – something the STS does not attempt. The M45 is quicker than the STS V8. (And has posted very close to the same Quarter Mile numbers as my GXP in C+D’s testing.) The M45 Sport also posted better braking and cornering and lane change numbers than the STS in the C+D comparison test. And so on.

    In summary, the M45 Sport provided a significantly more enjoyable driving experience – for me – at a substantially lower price point.

    Now I did not buy an M45 – for several reasons not directly germane here – and I also did not buy an STS. The point is that at the (say $50K to $60K) price level, I find the M45 Sport to be a considerably better deal. But the STS certainly does have potential – and I respect the effort.

    And although the loss of any single customer may not seem like a big deal, I believe that in the car business, where most customers only buy 1 car at a time, and only every 3 or 4 or 5 years, the loss of 1 customer does need to be looked at – at least superficially. . And where Caddy sells only 10% or so of the volume of Chevy (for example), every 1 lost sale is (or ought to be) even more important to Caddy.

    I believe that I fall within Caddy’s stated demographic target for the STS V8. As previously (recently) buying 2 Lincoln LS V8s (since 1999 – an early Y2K and a ‘late’ \ leftover 2003), I actually think that I am close to the ideal “conquest” STS sale. I even buy new cars more frequently than any sane person would . .

    But that’s just 1 (lost) customer’s opinion.

    - Ray
    Waddo I know???
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    " untill December or January and get rebates that make the STS more affordable. Its a wonderful car. "

    Inventory reported:
    STS (all) 1 Feb 2006 . . .1 Jan 2006
    9,300 = 134 days . . . .71 days

    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA4544210.PDF

    Total BMW inventory at 1 Feb stood at about 30 days.
    Just f.y.i.
    - Ray
    Wondering why Caddy does not have any sort of rebate on the STS today . . .
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    One of the big advantages of the sigma factory is that they can reduce the output of STS's while keeping the CTS's and SRX's in production. All are in excess supply though, so they may shutdown the factory before starting a fire sale.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    "reduce the output of STS's"

    Interesting to see that the production numbers for the STS are now (as of 12 March) less than 65% of last year's same period production:

    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA5230310.PDF
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    And yet, STS inventory is up still a bit more - to 142 days.

    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA5218310.PDF
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    And sales rate, YTD is approx. half what it was last year.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Well, if GM is serious about getting out of the incentivies sales schemes, they must do it at Cadillac. You have made it clear that you are not interested in an STS so what is your point?
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    For the first two months of this year vs last year I find:
    STS sales are off about 500 units, 3400 vs 3900. Mercedes sales are also down for the E-class. The Lexus LS sales are down.

    I think that the DTS, new this year, is taking some sales away from the STS perhaps. The DTS is doing quite well, as is the Lucerne, a cheap Buick DTS.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    "For the first two months of this year vs last year I find:
    STS sales are off about 500 units, 3400 vs 3900. Mercedes sales are also down for the E-class. The Lexus LS sales are down. "

    You are correct.
    I mis-read the chart in haste.
    No excuse.
    My apologies.
    - Ray

    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA510033.PDF
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I checked my local dealers inventory and found that they have 2 STS's, both priced at about $65,000.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    “You have made it clear that you are not interested in an STS so what is your point?”

    If I have made that clear to anyone, I have mis-typed.

    In fact, although I am not convinced that the STS-v is worth the (rather breathtaking) amount of money Caddy is asking, and the ‘regular’ STSs (V8s in particular) are priced \ marketed \ optioned \ packaged in such a way that I (still) cannot configure or build one to suit what I’d actually want, I am very interested in the STS. For several reasons.

    1 – Since Lincoln’s failure (of will, in my opinion) to follow up with effective continued development of the LS V8s past the 2003 model year upgrades, I see the STS as the only American player in what could be called the Premium Sport Sedan market. When C+D last year decided to test competing sedans in this category or class, the STS V8 was the lone American chosen to do battle. Up against Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, M-B.

    2 – Particularly with the CTS-v and now the STS-v, Caddy has put forth significant effort and I consider them now serious and credible in the Sporting Sedan arena. In a pretty select group – with those I mentioned above. I respect that. I admire the accomplishment. Regardless of whether or not I ever buy one.

    Again, if I said I was not interested: A) I do not remember typing those words and if I did, I hereby withdraw them, and B) though I may not buy one tomorrow – and I may never buy one, I am interested in Caddy’s effort in these markets, and I will watch how it plays out.

    I do not post inventory or sales numbers to ‘pick on’ Caddy or the STS – I just find them interesting. As I found the fact that last June, when the STS was selling reasonably well, they did add this sedan to the “Employee Pricing for Everyone” campaign. Where (like the Corvette) it was not clear that they actually needed to do so. And I configured \ priced an STS V8 1SF (Luxury Performance – at approx. $7K off then MSRP of approx. $58.8K) at that time as close to what I’d buy as possible, and even at that reduced price, I primarily did not see it then as a good value. Still don’t. That absolutely does not mean I don’t find the STS interesting.

    And I have been known to buy vehicles that were just really interesting (to me) despite the fact that I did not consider it a particular bargain or value. In spite of my review above, if the STS-v was available for $50K, I’d very seriously consider buying one this afternoon.

    I also have tried to be as fair as I know how to be every time I have criticized the STS (v or not) – as I do when I visit other make & model forums.

    I think that the STS does represent a fine foundation upon which GM could begin to build a reputation and a sales history and reliability history – and particularly a robust resale value history. If they choose to spend the $$s and focus their R&D on some critical (to me) aspects. I am watching with interest.

    I have actually tried here to be sure I state my respect for the effort that resulted in a V8 RWD Sport Luxury sedan that can legitimately compete (for my $$s) with Audi, et al. I bought 2 Lincoln LSs, in part because they were from an American Brand.

    If a V8 STS actually does become available, for 2007 or 2007.5 with the new 6 speed automatic (and they effectively implement ‘rev match on downshift’ – heck the $45K - $50K Corvette Coupe does it with the same trans.) and they decide to loosen up the option groupings in such a way that I can actually select the items I want and not have to take and pay for what I don’t want, then I will very seriously consider it when I am next in the market – likely sometime next year.

    Whereas, for example, I will almost certainly not consider some competitors like the Audi A6 4.2 V8 (without a significant bump in HP, I admit that it is a nice car, certainly, but not quick enough for me and I do not want or need AWD) or the BMW 5 – largely because the BMW’s interior and exterior styling I dislike rather intensely. Despite the fact that the V8 550i reportedly is quick & handles well. Etc. Just a few of my biases.

    We’ll see. But I expect to continue to be ‘interested’ in the STS.
    [ Another lunch hour blown . . ]
    - Ray
    Believing interested does not necessarily equal ready to purchase today . .
  • The 06' STS's are NOT selling well indeed. 145 day supply is TWICE the norm. And there are a ton of UNSOLD 05's sitting on dealers lots with NO cash incentive on them. I priced 5 via GMBUYPOWER and the best deal (05' STS V-8) was $41,636 on a $50,890 sticker. That's about 18% off the sticker on a car that's already depreciated 30% ($35,623). That means I'm in the hole by $6,000 before I even leave the lot. THANKS George but NO thanks. GM's biggest problem is their corporate ego.
  • Didn't read your whole post, I don't know if my eyes could stand it, but you're 100% CORRECT about this option package: QAF \ ‘Performance Handling Package, includes Tires, P235/45ZR18 18" Michelin Pilot Sport, front and P255/45ZR18 rear (summer only tires) and Performance Brake Linings ($795.00)’ is ONLY available on the 1SG = MSRP well over $60K. They, GM , have the mind set that winner take all BS. If they had anyone w/o this major ego crap they would offer this option on ALL V-8 STS's NOT just the top of the line model. Hell, they even offer an alike package on the CTS now. Saw it the other night. I think they will offer a V-8 CTS in the future and do away with the STS all together.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    jerrymcshane1: My dealer has only 2 2006 STS's with price tags of $65,000 on them. No 2005 models either.

    rayainsw: Your latest post indicates that you are not interested in an STS at the current price level. You want the STS_V for about $30,000 off the list price. I suppose that means you want the STS 1SF to sell for $25,000 or so off the list price.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I don't know what Cadillac's expectation are for the STS, but the FWD Seville's sales averaged less than 20,000 annually the last few years of production. So, the STS's sales of more than 30,000 for the first year is probably a lot of FWD STS owners who have waited for the new model. If they average 25,000 for the future, that is probably quite good, particularly at the price level that the STS is at.
  • nferrnferr Posts: 32
    Im very, very interested in the STS. My Jag X-Type lease is over in August and I'm going to price an STS v6 with AWD. Can't find any base V6's with AWD around here (CT.) so I may order one and hope that the lease deals are decent when it arrives. GM is at least currently using high residuals on the leases and right now a base V6 with AWD and 12K should be in the low to mid $400 range using my GM card earnings as down payment. That's not bad for this car. I think we're going to see some incentives soon on this car too. Figure I'll order in May.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I did some searching for V6 STS's and in my area there were none with AWD. However, there are a few in the Rocky Mountain area, with price tags of about $48,000. About $17,000 less than the V8 STS's with AWD.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    What I’d really want \ what I’d like to pay (as of march 2006)

    – equipment:
    STS V8 1SE
    (This Option Group now includes both their Navigation system + the Bose 5.1 DVD – and is something like $1,600 more expensive than on the last 2005 1SE I saw. And neither of these 2 items is of particular interest to me - sigh)

    But several other 1SE items are of interest to me . . So even configuring my ‘dream STS V8’, I guess I’d have to start there.
    ( aside: Has anyone actually seen a 1SD = ‘Base’ V8? I see none in stock shown on GMBuypower within approx. 100 miles of me, 20 or so miles North East of Metro Atlanta. And I have never seen one. )

    Anyway, 1SE base now: $47.5K + $4,445 + $720 dest = $52.7K

    The following stuff is what I’d want added to a 1SE, if I could.
    [[ Note: Currently, the only item listed here that can actually be added \ ordered separately and on a 1SE is the sunroof. Thus, that is the only price that is likely accurate. The rest are my guesses – and could be off by 50% or more, in either direction. ]]

    1SF final drive ratio (3.23 instead of 2.73): $0.
    G80 Ltd Slip Diff: $500?
    JE5 Perf brakes? As on 1SF? Just different pads? $0.
    FE3 Magnetic Ride Control: $1K?
    KB6 Heated AND Cooled front seats: $250?
    QAF Perf handling: $1200?
    (Currently $795 on 1SG, but this would be a further upgrade – meaning: from lower equip level = 17” wheels & tires on the 1SE)
    NV7 Premium ZF steering $500?
    CF5 Sunroof $1200

    Total: approx $56.8K - for what I’ll call an ‘STS V8 Sport’.

    With MSRP $56.8 – could I buy it (if they’d build it) for $50K-ish?
    $7K or $8K off MSRP at this level seems reasonable to me.
    But waddo I know? (Rhetorical question.)

    I cannot say that I’d buy one for that price.
    What I can say is that availability of an STS V8 with this configuration would mean that I’d compare it quite seriously against the M45 Sport, for example. It still would not be as quick as the M, but I’d see it as a much more worthy competitor than a 1SF ** for me ** (Current 1SF MSRP is $58,980, approx. $2K more than my hypothetical ‘STS V8 Sport’) and the 1SF still would lack the highest level QAF Performance Handling Suspension.

    - Ray
    Point of reference. My current GM sedan was: MSRP $33K (with exactly & only what I wanted for equipment), bought for $27K in June 2005.
  • nferrnferr Posts: 32
    <<I did some searching for V6 STS's and in my area there were none with AWD. However, there are a few in the Rocky Mountain area, with price tags of about $48,000. About $17,000 less than the V8 STS's with AWD. >>

    Although I haven't seen any on the lots, I did a GM buypower search and found quite a few listed locally here in Connecticut. I even found a totally base V6 with AWD. I suspect that a lot of the V6 AWD's are in transit or just now arriving. Most of the V6 AWD seem to have the luxury group and about half of those have sunroofs. They are a heck of a lot cheaper than the V8 AWD's.
  • There are MANY NEW 05's STS's around. Many of them are V-6's. I priced a few last week (V-6)and received these quotes: Sticker (V-6) $43,385 asking $35,000. The BEST I could do on a V-8? Sticker $50,890 asking $41,636. The discount (about 20%) doesn't even "cover" the first year depreciation. And the car is already 1 year old. So I don't know who'd buy one at these prices.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Well I bought my 2002 SLS at the end of the 2002 model year or the beginning of the 2003 model year, depending on one's point of view. In any case, it was the last 2002 they had. I was not looking for a new car either. But I bought it at about $10,000 off the list price. I expected the depreciation to make the car worthless quickly, so I expect to drive it a few more years. Dealers here do not appear to have 2005 models left over, but I have not looked for any either. Local dealer does not.

    While the STS inventory may seem high, I will point out that the spring and summer sales season has yet to start. So, while the inventory may be a bit high, if STS sales are good in April thru June/July, the excess could easily be sold off.
  • I just purchased a base STS with AWD and automatic transmission. The dealer in NJ added a sunroof for no charge. Best decision I ever made after years of owning SAABs and other foreign cars. Car looks great, has a high build quality, has a powerful engine and can be had for a great price. My dealer has the base models in stock with AWD and sold me the car for dealer cost plus gave me $2500.00 in direct GM marketing rebates, etc. that they didn't have to give me. My 39 month lease is $479.00 per month with a total of $2000.00 out of pocket. Any comparable car would be at least $100.00 per month more. You can't even get a compact G35 for that price.

    In summary, it's a great car and GM just needs to have a better marketing plan for the STS
  • I don't know what they have now but the origional commercial for the STS was the best commercial i have ever seen for any car (except that Lincoln LS train commercial :))

    the commerical for the STS had all the imports dancing around and then the Cadillac shows up and teaches them a thing or two about dancing in its own back yard!

    AWESOME!
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    The commercial was interesting but personally I think commercials in this strata of product need to have the product stand on its own, not sit there and compare itself to every German/Japanese import. Lexus didn't have to do this to get where they are. Neither does Cadillac. It reminds me of a Chevy ad campaign.
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