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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

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Comments

  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Oh man, thank God you didnt say that on one of the Subaru forums.

    ~alpha
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Posts: 145
    Um, you should check your facts. Fuji Heavy Industries OWNS Subaru. GM only has a 20% share of stock, a long way from controlling ownership.

    Subaru posted record sales in April with the other months close to breaking records. GM will not tell Subaru what to do. Subaru is selling well in spite of some of the lowest rebates, which as of right now the biggest rebates are $1500. Some models are not rebated at all and still selling well.

    They build a product that is good value and fun to drive along with reliable and people are still buying them. How well would GM and Ford do if their highest rebate was $1500? Not well I think.
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Posts: 145
    I would like to see Juice get wind of that post...lol
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    "BMW and Subaru have excellent "sport shift" automatics."

    I liked Toyota's in the MR2 as well. Ford doesn't seem to do them, though. Not really that I care, but it would be an interesting feature. Audi's DSG is really good. I've heard mixed about BMW's SMG though. I know people who love it, and people who think it's worse than I-Drive :P

    I have a very positive outlook for Subaru. They are spreading out to different markets like crossovers and whatnot. Also, Subaru runs a plant in my hometown that pretty much keeps the place running. Well, that and Purdue University.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    GM owns 20% of FHI, but they don't own the other 80%. GM has one single member on the FHI board. It's not a majority by a long shot.

    Proof of their independence came when they rejected using a GM platform for the Tribeca, note it has a boxer engine and is a pure Subaru design. Saab sort of got stuck with the leftovers - yet another TrailBlazer clone and a warmed over WRX.

    Subaru sales are not down at all, they are in fact up about 5% from last year, which by the way was a record year, best ever. April 2005 was Subaru's best month ever.

    Fusion looks very promising and will be a big hit for Ford, a nice follow-up to the very successful Mustang launch. Now they should try to infuse some of that excitement in the Five Hundred.

    -juice
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    Ford sells more Mustangs than Subaru, well Subarus. Subaru is a niche car. Mustang too btw. But Fusion is not, it is just mainstream with some sporty flair.

    Who needs manumatics, it is waste of money and engineering resources, just another way to rip off customers. If you need better control and feeling go buy manual that is superior to any manumatic and is less prone to failure.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    a. I didn't know Subaru sold ANY Mustangs! :)

    b. It's easy to criticize manumatics and send people out to buy manual shifts when you don't frequently drive in bumper to bumper traffic jams for three hours at a time where the CHOICE NOT to shift gears is a near essential. There is a market for these things, probably a far larger market than for manuals, quite frankly...
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    There is a market for these things, probably a far larger market than for manuals, quite frankly...

    That is just about certain, since the market for manual in the US is, I believe, less than 10% and probably half of those choose manual for purely economic reasons.

    Didn't Edmunds recently announce the coming end of the manual transmission when they tested the audi/vw DSG? :)
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    Save yourself the pain of waiting for AWD on the Fusion. Go buy a Subaru Outback or Legacy right now and get Standard AWD, Standard Side Air Bags, Standard ABS, and Standard Side Curtain Air Bags. You can also get 250hp in a 3.0l or 250hp in a 2.5l Turbo. Not to mention you get a longer warranty.

    And while you're saving yourself the pain of waiting for AWD, cough up another $12K as a Subaru with a 6 or turbo pushes $30K.

    On a different note, what about those spy shots of the 2007 Accord? Hmmm... looks a lot like the 2005 Accord if you ask me. Even GM changes more than the tail lights on their mid-cycle refreshes.

    I think some folks here are having difficulty with the Fusion concept. It's meant to be an entry level midsizer. If you want NAV, AWD, curtain airbags, ESC, HID, TMX, seat coolers, mood lighting and dual rocket thrusters, you're missing the point. This isn't an entry level luxury car. It's a Ford. Expect style, good handling and affordability along with a handful of a la carte options to suit your individual needs. Check the boxes you need/want and leave the others empty.

    We've got some chronic complainers on this board and it's tiring. Why isn't this standard? Why isn't this optional? Blah, blah, blah... These are the same folks that go into Red Lobster and get all huffy because they feel their dining experience wasn't "five-star level."

    The problem with making everything standard is that you close the door on certain customers. Take the Sonata. It's quite a nice car and I was interested until I found out that in order to get the sunroof, I had to settle for a slushbox - brilliant thinking. Apparently sunshine and not shifting go together in Hyundai's mind. As do alloys and not shifting (it's common knowledge that folks who prefer shifting themselves hate alloy wheels... uh huh).

    Personally, I like Ford's idea of not tying expensive features together that are critical buy factors. Don't want to pay extra for side airbags? Fine. Don't want to be forced into an automatic if you want a sunroof? That's good too. Variety is the spice of life my friends. Just because you want to veg out behind the wheel doesn't mean all drivers should be forced into an automatron. And just because you feel that piloting a car without full perimeter airbags is akin to engaging in some type of Kamakazi mission doesn't mean everyone shares this belief.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "The problem with making everything standard is that you close the door on certain customers. Take the Sonata. It's quite a nice car and I was interested until I found out that in order to get the sunroof, I had to settle for a slushbox - brilliant thinking. Apparently sunshine and not shifting go together in Hyundai's mind. As do alloys and not shifting (it's common knowledge that folks who prefer shifting themselves hate alloy wheels... uh huh)."

    Seems like a well calculated risk based on the fact that about <10% of new vehicles are sold with manual transmissions, and that percentage is probably lower for the Sonata line. Since its not a particularly sporting vehicle anyway, chances are those buying the 5M are probably doing so for reasons of perceived economy.

    Thank you for pointing out that the Fusion is a Ford. Correct me if Im wrong, but the Accord is a mere Honda, Camry a simple Toyota and yet both can be outfitted with many of the options you perceive as premium, and in some cases they're standard. As a frame of reference, I love Red Lobster, and havent ever had a bad experience there. :P

    I think the Fusion looks like a great entry. I dont think its smart for Ford to play a value card by simply showing prices with even attempting features parity. I also think that the freshened Accord and the new Camry (to debut in February) are going to continue to be tough competition in the midsize segment, as is the newly capable and enjoyable to drive Sonata. And of course, the 6 is due for freshening as well.

    With regards to your statement on safety: "And just because you feel that piloting a car without full perimeter airbags is akin to engaging in some type of Kamakazi mission doesn't mean everyone shares this belief" This is the family sedan segment, and safety sells. God knows that Ford trumpets safety ratings moreso than any brand this side of Volvo (which is Ford anyway). That said, for all their mention of safety, theres not much said about vehicles where the equipment isnt standard, such as on the Focus' or Escape's IIHS side impact without optional bags.

    my .02

    ~alpha

    PS- A base Legacy GT is $26.3K MSRP, you do bad math if the difference from base Fusion V6 (w/o AWD) to that figure is $12 grand.

    (FWIW, that Legacy doesnt have a moonroof or leather, BUT does have ABS, side curtains, AWD, multifunction trip computer, full power accesories, 17 inch alloys, heated front seats, electroluminescent gauges, 6 disc in dash CD, and dual zone auto climate control).
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Sorry about that last post, I cant seem to enter paragraphs for some reason?

    wierd.

    ~alpha
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    That is just about certain, since the market for manual in the US is, I believe, less than 10% and probably half of those choose manual for purely economic reasons.

    You believe is right. The friends I have that drive sticks aren't doing it for cost reasons. They're doing it because they enjoy the experience. Personally, I would pay extra for a stick if I had to and in some cars (e.g., the GTO and Corvette) that's just the case.

    On the other hand, I have no problem with automatic transmissions - for other people. From what I've witnessed out there, the majority of drivers can barely figure out what passing lanes and turn signals are for let alone how to work a clutch and shift at the same time. Throw in a little traffic and a stick of chewing gum and it's a 20 car pile-up. The last time I went to the DMV they were handing out licenses to anyone with a pulse, correctible vision and $18. So long as these folks are on the road, I say keep those automatics comin'.

    As far as "manumatics" are concerned, I too fail to see the point. What possible purpose could a person have for manually shifting an automatic transmission? It's like turning the agitator by hand in a washing machine - very strange.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The "I believe" was in reference to the 10% figure, because this is an approximate number I thought I have heard/read...looks like current figure is 12-13%:

    http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=76901&ran=172509

    The fact that you know a couple people who choose manual purely because they enjoy dirving them, does not mean that others are not choosing them to save money. I don't think, for example, many MTX Hyundai Accents are being bought with MTX for the pure pleasure of driving them.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Posts: 792
    Ford is on to something. All of those who have observed that Ford allows far greater freedom of choice with regard to options have identified one of their key competitive advantages.

    A few examples:

    When my wife and I were shopping for a car to replace her 1994 Thunderbird LX V8, we considered and rejected both the Accord and Mazda 6 two door models because you have to have the sunroof with side air bags. However, I did not fit in either car with the sun roof, and the side air bags are a proven safety feature we will not do without.

    I just ordered a 2006 Explorer Limited V8 to replace my 2002 Mountaineer, and was happy that Ford did not force me to have the 3rd row seat and rear air conditioning, expensive things I never used on the Mountaineer.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    and:

    * I rejected a Mazda 626 in the early nineties because to get it with ABS, you had to have a sunroof....No, thanks.

    * One of the reasons I bought the Five Hundred I now own is that I could get it equipped the way I wanted with options like AWD, the safety package and reverse sensors but without leather or sunroof. I could easily have afforded both, but wanted neither...

    * Honda and Toyota both package their cars in such a way that if there is virtually any major options, you will get both sunroof and leather. For many, this is a plus...but if you don't want those things AT ALL, it isn't...Toyota shows option configurations in its brochures that it may or may not be building, and sells differently equipped cars in each region of the country. You may be able to get a Camry equipped a certain way in New Hampshire but not Alabama, unless you either do a very long mileage dealer trade or travel to New Hampshire and get it!

    * Dealers much prefer simple take it or leave it packages, especially on hot selling cars that someone WILL buy, regardless of what. Until very recently, that was true in spades for both Camry and Accord. Incentives were unheard of, and prices OVER MSRP were not unheard of...when there are more buyers than cars, manufacturers can and will force options on people (look at what you must get and pay for to get a 300 with a Hemi...) Conversely, if a car isn't selling at all well, you get things for a lower price that normally would not be standard, such as a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty...or if the cars competing against you offer such a thing, you as a manufacturer may have to match such offerings..It's all marketing, and it is a science...
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    These are the same folks that go into Red Lobster and get all huffy because they feel their dining experience wasn't "five-star level."

    Now THAT was priceless!!!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    And while you're saving yourself the pain of waiting for AWD, cough up another $12K as a Subaru with a 6 or turbo pushes $30K

    Don't expect a similar Fusion/Milan to cost any less. In fact the MazdaSpeed 6 costs more than a similarly equipped Legacy GT. And that's what a hopped-up Fusion would share parts with (SVT Fusion, anyone?).

    You can actually get a Legacy GT for $23k or so, much less than you think.

    -juice
  • shado4shado4 Posts: 287
    "The new 2006 Ford Fusion. Safety available at extra cost"

    Sorry, gogophers1, if you think we are chronic complainers. But when it comes to safety, I WILL complain loud and large to all who will hear me. It pisses me off that Ford fails to see the significance of making safety items standard or even available, just like it pisses you off when you chronically complain about manufacturers bundling options together that result in depriving you of a manual transmission. We've heard your rant before...manual trans, sunroof. No ifs, ands or buts. Frankly, it's getting tiresome. :P
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The same situation occured in the 500 Forum. Previously to the car being released, you had many people complaining/whining, for one thing or another.

    We had the "Oh it's not powerful enough"... Yet, all the owner's buying it (and in the forum) have no issues with that.

    Then we had that "Oh, another Ford that won't be reliable"...

    A few suvey's have already been released, putting it at the head or near the top in it's segment... etc.

    The same will occur with the Fusion, yet you will always have nay-sayers in Forums, and that's ok, everyone has their opinion and proof will be in the pudding later.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    ""The same will occur with the Fusion, yet you will always have nay-sayers in Forums, and that's ok, everyone has their opinion and proof will be in the pudding later.""

    I really doubt it. Ford had a flop with the Five Hundred in terms of power. Compared to other full-size sedans of similar cost, it is depowered by no small degree. Look at a Limited. It starts at 27k or so, yes? And the 300 Limited is somewhere roughly around there (28k, possibly?). It's a bunch more powerful. My problem isn't with the base model, as the Five Hundred actually outpowers the base 300 and Lucerne. But once the trim levels go up toward that 29k average car price in America, the Five Hundred falls short. As for reliability, it's about time.

    I think that the Fusion will do well, but as for Ford wanting to displace the Camcord, it's not going to happen. Don't ask why or how, but it probably won't. A Ford is a Ford and a Camcord is a Camcord. I am being rude, I am sure, but I know several people who won't buy Fords. Ah, pudding is good.
  • The whole deal with the manumatic is choice. When you are in traffic, you leave it on auto, when you are tired, you leave it on auto, when you have a nice stretch of curvy road and you want to have some fun, you move your shifter over and enjoy.

    I test-drove a Saab and a Lincoln with a manumatic, the salesperson at the lincon dealer would not let me use it (guess who lost my business?) and the saab guy was about my age and let me rip it.

    The saab's engine is only 4 cylinder, but you would be hard pressed to tell with the manumatic, it made everything so much fun, what an exiting drive! And no "clutch pedal" or whetever you call it that you have to press to move your shifter. That's so annoying, i can't imagine how people drive manuals and thank god i am in the USA where we don't have to.

    Ford needs to offer this option, if for no other reason than to back up the marketing of this car. If its sporty, give me some sporty features! This car is smaller than a camry, and claims to make up for it with the "fun to drive" factor. Well, if you can't afford two cars (one manual one auto) than a fun to drive sport sedan with a manumatic and roomy enough to be comfortable sounds like the right mix.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    And the 300 Limited is somewhere roughly around there (28k, possibly?). It's a bunch more powerful.

    AWD 300 Limited starts at $31,370 with the 3.5L V6 whereas the AWD FH Limited starts at $28,090. The former has 250 HP/250 ft-lbs to move 4034 lbs around and the latter has 203 HP/207 ft-lbs to move 3815 lbs around.

    I'm not sure I'd say it's a bunch more powerful given those numbers. Put the $3000 you save buying the FH into engine mods and you can take on the 300's Hemi! :P
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    Why immediately jump to a Five Hundred Limited for your comparisons when the base Five Huindred SE starts at MSRP $22840 including shipping, and you can buy one for about $21K, and it is decently equipped with the most of the stuff people want these days without being overloaded with the less necessary bells and whistles. And, for a MSRP $24640 you can get the SE AWD version. Certainly these are not overpriced!

    Your main beef is the price of the uplevel units, but this occurs on virtually all mass market (non luxury cars). You can push a Camry, Accord, Altima or even an Impala easily into the mid to high 20's as well. Even Avalon, starts at MSRP $26890 including shipping and without AWD. And I agree Avalon has more bells and whistles (though no AWD option, a small trunk, and no folding seats-Oh but it has covers over all the controls, and a lot of metallic colored plastic and fake wood in the dash so it must be oustanding! ;) )

    Yes once you get into the near $30K range the argument can be made that there are more cost effective choices out there than Five Hundred with higher performance engines, but power is only part of the whole story here, and will be remedied shortly with the optional 3.5 Duratech.

    "A Ford is a Ford and a Camcord is a Camcord". Well, based on the postings I monitor in the CamCord discussions (check the Maintenance & Repair Edmunds discussions for yourself), the Camcords ain't all that great and are living on past perceived reputation in my opinion.
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    The saab's engine is only 4 cylinder, but you would be hard pressed to tell with the manumatic, it made everything so much fun, what an exiting drive! And no "clutch pedal" or whetever you call it that you have to press to move your shifter. That's so annoying, i can't imagine how people drive manuals and thank god i am in the USA where we don't have to.

    If you get a thrill from moving the lever back and forth when the mood strikes, more power to you. What you do with your automatic is your business. I'm just happy to hear that you're not doing it in heavy traffic.
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    a. I didn't know Subaru sold ANY Mustangs!

    It will do, in the end :) Mustang outsells 13 brands, according to the press:
    link '05 Mustang roars to 47 percent sales gain

    "The redesigned car is selling better than Chrysler's popular 300 sedan. It also is outselling 13 brands, including Scion, Saturn, Mercedes-Benz and Subaru.
    "

    b. It's easy to criticize manumatics and send people out to buy manual shifts when you don't frequently drive in bumper to bumper traffic jams for three hours at a time where the CHOICE NOT to shift gears is a near essential. There is a market for these things, probably a far larger market than for manuals, quite frankly...

    If you cannot drive stick - don't do it. But do not think that manumatic is anywhere close to stick. You gain nothing driving manumatic, except of wannabe rich factor. Driving stick you gain control over the car.

    BTW Ford is also on the top of dependability survey:

    link GM, Ford, Toyota among top performers in vehicle dependability survey
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,755
    "Or a Corolla GT-S from the mid-80's. 110 or so hp!". i remember those. 16v I-4. there was a good looking blonde divorcee where i worked back then, who drove a red one. ;)
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Oh, I can drive a stick....but as I said, it ain't no fun at all in three hours of bumper to bumper slow moving traffic. And clutchs ain't cheap...
  • tacoboytacoboy Posts: 25
    I have driven MT cars my whole life and am very disappointed the Fusion V6 is auto only. I'll probably buy a Mazda 6s with the MT instead.

    That said I don't think automanuals are useless. Most cars upshift way too soon, an automanual lets you hold a gear longer for much better part throttle acceleration. Also, it's nice to be able to drop a gear prior to passing rather than waiting (hoping) that the auto will kick down on it's own. Maybe these are not issues with good AT cars , but the rentals I've had would have been completely devoid of personality without the automanual feature.
  • theman123theman123 Posts: 170
    Wow !!! that's very interesting.
    The one thing that got me about the surver is that Mercury is only 1 point behind Toyota. Lincolns are more dependable than Infinti. Man that's some news. Our good friends over at Hyundai are not even with the industry standard. As well is Mr. Mercedes-Benz. Ford is way ahead of Nissan as far as dependablitity. Man that survey is going to stur a S@#$ storm. I just wonder what the Import lovers would have to say about that one. I better leave that topic alone. With that, I really think the Fusion is going to sell now :)

    J.D. Power and Associates Dependability survey
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,651
    To me these quality surveys don't do a thing for me. Do I care that a 2002 Malibu was the most reliable car in its segment. NO, I've driven them and I don't care if it breaks or not, it's still a POS. It doesn't feel like quality to me.

    There is a difference between quality and reliability. Mercedes proves this point. They are very high quality cars, the few I've had the luxury to drive or ride in just scream vault like build quality, just not reliable due to mainly electronics. A timex is reliable, but a Rolex is quality. I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's how I see it.

    In my garage is a 2000 Suburban, 2003 Taurus, and a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder (soon to be turned in off lease). The Pathfinder is by far the best built vehicle of the lot, the Burb and Taurus don't come close, neither did the 01 Impala we had before the Taurus in terms of powertrain refinement and overall solidness and build quality. I like the burb for its utility, but my god, could their be a worse built vehicle for $40K in terms of squeaks, rattles and interior quality. The Taurus, while reliable, feels cheap and unsubstantial in every way.

    Granted I've sampled a new Armada and they don't seem to be screwed together as well as my current Pathfinder, and all of the Nissan's have seemed to be cheapened up, though, their v6 & v8 powertrains are second to none.

    One more thing, I'm not on this thread to bash Ford. I'm am intersted in the Fusion and it has definitely grabbed my attention
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