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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    Exterior H6 Outback W8 Passat V6 Passat
    Length 187.4 in. 184.3 in. 184.3 in.
    Width 68.7 in. 68.7 in. 68.7 in.
    Height 63.3 in. 58.9 in. 58.6 in.
    Weight 3715 lbs. 4067 lbs. 3840 lbs.
    Whl Base 104.3 in. 106.4 in. 106.4 in.
    Clearance 7.9 in. 5.8 in. 5.8 in.

    Interior H6 Outback W8 Passat V6 Passat
    Frt Hdrm 38.5 in. 37.8 in. 37.8 in.
    Rrr Hdrm 37.2 in. 37.9 in. 37.9 in.
    Frt Shlder 53.9 in. 55.8 in. 55.8 in.
    Rr Shlder 53.6 in. 54.6 in. 54.6 in.
    Frt Hip 51.3 in. Not Published Not Published
    Rr Hip 51.9 in. Not Published Not Published
    Frt Leg 43.3 in. 41.5 in. 41.5 in.
    Rear Leg 34.3 in. 35.3 in. 35.3 in.
    Max Lug 34.3 cu.ft. 36 cu.ft. 36 cu.ft.
    Max Seat 5 5 5

    Pretty close for the current models and the new Legacy is spoosed to be bigger on the inside.

    I wonder if people are sniffing something if they think they are getting prestige when buying a VW. Subaru and VW are in same league. Unfortunately VW needs the 4 years B To B warranty. Passats are nice but in no way do they match the value of a Legacy.

    2004 Pricing

    Pricing H6 Outback W8 Passat V6 Passat
    MSRP $32,620 $39,660 $33,605
    Invoice $29,510 $36,381 $30,911
    TMV®) $29,786 $36,310 $30,744
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,924
    Thats the word that the sales manager gave me, so we will see, this is about inline with what the price structure is in Australia, UK, and the other markets that the new model is already being sold in.

    A couple of guys in Australia who post from time to time reported paying a minimal increase when they bought the new model over what they had paid for the previous model.

     Like he said Subaru is really aware that if they price too high they will be in trouble, I cannot see them doing things differently here than they have done in the other markets.

      Cheers Pat.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Posts: 518
    The Car Talk guys on NPR had a great rant on their show last week about how Subaru must be crazy to slowly abandon the part of the market that contains their loyal customers. Those of you who are similarly concerned ought to listen (their show is available online at cartalk.com). I'm not an owner, but as a general enthusiast I've always had respect for the cars. Personally, I always really liked the scrappy little GL 4WD wagons they sold in the '80s, but the current Legacy Outback is a pretty nice vehicle too, and at a reasonable price for what you get. I called VW crazy for moving upscale a year or two ago, and it looks like I was right...I'll be interested to see how Subaru handles their attempt.

    -Andrew L
  • adaveyadavey Posts: 30
    is subaru ever going to make another ragtop?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The new Legacy will be close enough, then, but the next Passat could grow, too.

    Rumor has it Subaru's warranty will improve, we'll see about that.

    Ragtop: did you like the B9SC? Well, too bad, it's doubtful they'll produce it.

    I'd love to see that roadster, but a coupe is more likely, a 7 seater is much more likely, a big sedan is more likely. Hen's teeth are more likely.

    -juice
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    As the price point of Subarus goes up, the warranty coverage should fall in line with other "Premium" models. For Subaru it needs to be revamped into the 4 Year B To B free scheduled maintenance warranty like the other premium brands. Doing this would add another layer of value to the cars.

    Subaru still has some value packed cars that don't abandon the 'inexpensive and built to stay that way" theme. The base Imprezas are still relatively low cost sub 20K. Subaru has incentives now, but can probably do a price adjust and value pack these if they need to move more of them.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 426
    Subaru can easily increase their warranty to 4/50,000 w/ little impact. They tend to have initial minor issues and then are reliable as hell. A company like VW gets hit more by increasing their warranty.

    Ralph
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Not only that, the powertrain warranty is already 5/60 and most of the issues we see here are covered by that. Stretching the bumper to bumper by a year won't cost them anything.

    They tried 2 years' free maintenance with the LL Bean, so they may bring that back. I don't see it happening on all models, though.

    My dealer virtually loses money on new car sales, but them recovers it on service ($90 per hour labor charge). Dealers won't want to give that up too soon.

    -juice
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,273
    free service is overrated anyway, since it usually ends up being a couple of free oil changes and maybe a tire rotation. On BMWs, you may get a free brake job out of it, but you do pay up front for the privilege.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • zmanzman Posts: 200
    Somewhere (but I can't remember where) I read that the '05 Legacy GT will be 1" higher than its '04 counterpart. Did I dream this?

    And since I have no idea what the current model sports for ground clearance to begin with, can anyone tell me what the '05 will have? It's does not appear to be in the specs that I have found online.

    From what I can gather, the Legacy GT (MT), will have a final gear ratio is 4.11 (vs. the Outback's 4.44). Is this accurate?

    Zman
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,924
    is no such thing as free service, nothin is free you can be sure the cost of free service is built in somewhere.

      Cheers Pat.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    For the first 50K miles should not be that expensive, or that big a deal for virtually any new car.

    It is beyond the 50K mark, and specifically beyond the 80-100K mark where maintenance really starts to add up. (60K spark plugs, 100K timing chain, 10 year air bag maintenance, etc.)
  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    zman, the ground clearance on the Pacific Rim Legacy GT release is advertised as 155 mm, just over 6 inches. I dont remember anything about increasing the Legacy GT ground clearance. In fact ,the JDM Spec B has additional underbody panels to reduce air resistance, and those reduce ground clearance even further. However , ground clearance is not included in the USDM Legacy GT specs on the .pdf at www.media.subaru.com, unlike the OB specs. Maybe they are still fine tuning the suspension.

    The advertised USDM release final reduction ratio is 4.11 on the Legacy GT MT, same as the current Forester XT MT.
  • radianradian Posts: 21
    Hello,

    My wife and I are currently considering buying one of three cars, with the 05 Legacy GT being one of them (Mazda RX-8 and Mazda 6 the other two). I'm interested in hearing more about the manual transmission and its relative smoothness, especially when compared to the WRX's manual. I've driven an 02 WRX with a manual and it was nowhere near as smooth as the RX-8's, and I've also read plenty of forums with posts about the relative difficulty of the WRX's shifter and clutch (even STi reviews compare its shifter unfavorably to the Evo's).

    So far I've read a few brief positive comments about the shifter in Australian reviews, but I'm looking for any other foreign reviews or other insight into the 05 Legacy's manual transmission.

    Thanks in advance,
    Luke
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Whoa this car is getting a lot of attention! A lot of people were crowded around the Legacies at the Dallas Auto Show! Awesome interior, awesome power, awesome looks. I'm thinking about getting one when my G35 lease expires.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    - My WRX is fine shifter wise. It was noticeably not as smooth as the RX8 though.

    - Think the '05 Legacy will have the advantage over the RX8 in performance (0-60, 1/4 mile), gas mileage (RX8 is <20 mpg), range, and interior.

    - RX8 will probably be the better handler and look more flashy.

    Price should be close.
  • radianradian Posts: 21
    I know the mileage of the RX-8 isn't good (supposedly an engine reflash brings it up to where it's supposed to be), but aren't the WRX STi and Forester XT just as bad in the EPA ratings?

    So the new Legacy supposedly has the new more efficient 2.5L (does the turbo version apply as well?), AVCS, lower drag, and lighter weight (than the previous versions). Hopefully this will all translate into numbers more in the 20 city/26 hwy range or even higher. Otherwise I don't see how it has any real advantage in MPG.

    I know these cars are very different drive-train wise, but we already have a functional car (00 AT Legacy wagon) and this one is for coolness/fun.

    Can't wait to hear more specs from Subaru. Hopefully someone was right about them being released before the end of March.
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Posts: 487
    the boards for the last couple of months, so I do not know what I am missing, and please excuse me if my questions have already been answered. We love our Forester XT / PP / AT, which is my wife's main ride. I am toying with trading my pick up for an Outback XT and have been doing some research.

    My guess is that the Outback XT will be somewhere about $1.5k - $2K over the Forester. If they keep that kind of gap, I guess it will make sense. More and the Outback will be a tougher sell. Less and they may hurt the Forester.

    Because I actually occasionally go off road, the Outback is the only "crossover" I am considering to replace my truck. With 8.7" of ground clearance, the Subaru AWD and toughness, and the lsd I am guessing it would be enough. Plus with 2,700 pounds of towing, I could give up the pick-up by getting a utility trailer.

    The one thing I have not seen anywhere is any info on Cargo room. The Forester is 62 - 64 cubic feet depending upon sunroof. Current Outback I believe is in the high 60s. I am hoping for at least this much if not more (the car length and wheelbase are slightly extended after all). Has anyone seen any listed figures? I thought that was odd, considering so many other specs have been released, but I have not seen anything saying if interior room is up.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    "I know the mileage of the RX-8 isn't good (supposedly an engine reflash brings it up to where it's supposed to be), but aren't the WRX STi and Forester XT just as bad in the EPA ratings?"

    - Per the Consumer Reports comparison a few months back -

    WRX STi - Gas Mileage - 20 mpg
    RX8 - Gas Mileage - 18 mpg

    Both have about the same size tank.

    If you are going for "coolness/fun.", then maybe go with the RX8. While I can see the new Legacy performing better, and being a better option if you will only own one car, the RX8 flashiness, with its very neutral handling and tossability is a very fun drive, indeed.

    If this is the case, you should also look at the STi, Evo, S2000, 350Z, G35 coupe, and Crossfire.......

    Do not limit yourself to just 2 cars when shopping!!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    20/26 is very optimistic, the gearing is very short and they are heavier than the Forester XT.

    F-XT gets 17/23, so I'm hoping for 18/24 optimistically.

    If you want 20/26 it'll have to be the H6, which gets much, much taller gearing. It might even do better than that.

    -juice
  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    My first instinct is to expect a base OB XT to have MSRP about $4-5K above a base Forester XT, and the LTD trim significantly more.I expect the base Legacy GT to be priced about mid point between them .
      I have a hunch SoA has kept the trim and other equipment on the new Legacy pretty lean so that no Legacy model, up to and including the Legacy GT LTD, hits $30K MSRP. The marketing and perceived competition for the new Outback is decidedly different: they are taking on the BMW X3, the Audi allroad, the Volvo XC70, the Nissan Murano/Infiniti FX35 and the Lexus RX330 for size and performance , if not upper-end luxury features. I'll even wager that NAV will be available as an option in the upper trim levels by the time the 05 Outback hits the dealer lots. That "crossover" look has already taken on a second meaning: $$$!

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Pacifica is bigger and they tried $35k pricing, consumers rejected that in droves. They sell starting at $27k, and that's for a 3 row crossover and a big V6.

    Cadillac built too many V8 SRXs at first, people wanted the cheaper V6. So even luxury crossovers are price-sensitive.

    -juice
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    The two big items Subaru - SOA had to tackle to have their cars considered "Premium" was the interior and the power. The power was an easy fix as they had more powerful drivetrains in Japan and Europe. The interior is the harder task. The features, design layout and materials all had to change and be upgraded. Alot of brand perception hinges on the press and publics impression on the new upgraded Outback and Legacy interiors. We will wait and see, preliminary reviews have been positive. For their sake I hope they truly made a significant improvement.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,428
    Any idea on mpg for the 2.5l non-turbo with manual - in the legacy? The 04 is 21/28 If there is a 10% improvement, then I am hoping for 23/31. This would still be a way from the 26/34 of the Accord, but much better.

    It is beyond me how an XT can only get 17/23. A W8 Passat wagon with an automatic tranny and AWD gets 18/25 (a 745 Li gets 18/26). Of course the Passat has a gas guzzler tax of $1,200 because it is not an "SUV". I guess they should bump up the ground clearance to save their customers some money. ; ^ )

    I wish Subarus were more efficient. Hopefully the '05 models will be.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Interiors are much improved. Better design mainly, but also better materials quality. The headliner is padded and covered in a nice fabric, vs. peach fuzz on card board for the old ones. Even the A-pillar is covered in the same fabric that the VW Phaeton gets (an $80 grand vehicle).

    Then look at the cargo area, the carpets are tucked in nicely, no visible seams. Even Mercedes leaves some seams visible in there.

    Add scuff plates for the doors, better seats, more features, more room, and I think they pretty much nailed it.

    -juice
  • radianradian Posts: 21
    18/23 is what Subaru says in specs for the FXT M/T. Now a comparison...

    WEIGHT
    -FXT weighs 3210, which is 80 pounds heavier than the FXS Premium.
    -04 Legacy L sedan weighs 3285, minus 180 pounds for the 05s (so says Subaru), plus 80 pounds for turbo (or so), gives you 3185 lbs. for new GT sedan.

    [Granted the current L may not have all the interior options of the GT sedan, so it may weigh up to 100 pounds more than the estimate above.]

    DRAG
    -FXT has 0.35
    -Legacy sedan will have 0.28

    GEARING
    -FXT: Final drive (4.444) and Fifth (0.738)
    -Legacy: Final drive (4.111) and Fifth (0.738)

    ENGINE IMPROVEMENTS
    -Legacy has improved efficency 2.5L boxer (not sure if that applies to GT or not)

    So adding all those things together, I don't feel my estimates are exceedingly optimistic, but I do agree they are optimistic. 18/24 seems like the minimum given it'd look very weird (to potential buyers) for the Legacy GT to have worse mileage than the STi.

    kevin111: Thanks for the suggestions about other cars to test out. The RX-8 is pushing it as far as our sporting tendencies go though (ruling out the Evo, Z, STi, and S2000), and the other two are a bit too expensive. I'd say today we're learning towards comfort and functionality, hence the Legacy GT. It changes everyday though, and may change if the base GT is too expensive when the prices are released.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    do testdrive the two back-to-back.

    I am especially curious about the interior and handling of the GT vs. the RX8.

    From testdriving the RX8, I was very impressed with the suspension set-up. Had a compliant ride while still having excellent handling.
  • rob999rob999 Posts: 233
    I am convinced the MPG killer is the gearing:

    GEARING
    -FXT: Final drive (4.444) and Fifth (0.738)
    -Legacy: Final drive (4.111) and Fifth (0.738)

    At 75 mph my '01 OB MT runs at 3,500 RPM. Several others have posted in the past how surprised they were on how high their engines ran at highway speeds, too.

    I really, REALLY like the direction that Subaru is taking with the styling, interior and performance with the new model. I wish they had addressed the high gearing at the same time. Unless you're looking for a stoplight racer, there's just no reason for a turbo engine that puts out as much horsepower and torque as the new model needs to rev so high at highway speeds. Mileage, noise and vibration could all be improved with lower gearing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    L/SE and 35AE had a moonroof standard, and the GT actually drops that (unless you go LTD), so that saves some weight, too.

    The weight difference should not be significant. The aerodynamics only come into play at higher speeds, so that might get +1mpg highway. But the taller final drive helps there also, maybe +2mpg highway total.

    It's hard to improve city mileage, though.

    By that theory it would be 18/25.

    -juice
  • radianradian Posts: 21
    rob999: I agree completely. My only theory is they don't want people thinking it's underpowered when they go to pass someone in fifth gear. I'd gladly trade off the extra acceleration on the highway for some mileage. It seems that US driving is especially suited to having a low cruising gear given all the highway driving we do overall.

    juice: Forgot about the moonroof weight. I know you're upset about no moonroof with cloth interior, but I'm glad they removed it. I'm 6'7" and my head is almost scraping the roof on my 00 GT wagon.
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