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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Nice der Outback! ;-)

    nematode: I agree. The H6 should be Outback exclusive, maybe even its only engine.

    The Legacy line should have the 2.5l and 2.5T. The STi can get a blown H6, that's so low volume anyway.

    -juice
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    All of Subaru's primary compeition for the higher end Legacy wagons will have six-cylinder options (Passat, A4, Mazda 6, 325iT, etc.). To not have a six-cyl motor in this segment would be be fatal.

    - Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I tend to disagree.

    The A4 1.8T is a 4 cylinder, and has been successful.

    Passat also has a 1.8T. Even then, it's softer than the A4 so the Outback could compete with V6 Passats.

    Subaru has 2 models, so the Legacy can take a sporty bent while the Outback goes towards luxury. Outback has traditionally handled the volume for Subaru, they thrived without a 6 cylinder for 6 years or so.

    Let the Outback continue to go after that volume, and the GT can become a speciality performance car.

    Other examples - the Acura TSX, the next Volvo V40 and V70 (5 cylinder), Mercedes C230, Saab 9-3, etc.

    If the Legacy GT can perform anything like the Forester XT, which is basically a Giant Killer, it'll be successful *and* attract a different buyer than the traditional Outback/H6 buyer.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    I don't think they have their info correct on the engines. My guess is that the H-6 will remain an Outback exclusive.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The basis of my argument is that there should be as little overlap as possible from the Legacy to the Outback.

    Think about it. The Impreza is a shortened Legacy, at least it was originally. Forester is a lifted Impreza. Baja is a Legacy Crew Cab. So basically Subaru sells one chassis architecture in this country!

    They have to differentiate the models more, a lot more. I think the Outback and H6 images mesh together perfectly, it should even be standard.

    The WRX succeeded. The Forester XT helped Subaru break a record for sales last month. Both have turbos with a 5 speed available.

    The Outback has always thrived, but the GT was like the secret noone knew about. The "fatal" comment is funny because, how many do they sell now? Hardly any, it's not like a turbo is going to hurt sales. Impreza sales are way up. The H6 did not help Outback sales, they actually went down.

    It seems counter-intuitive, but it's fact. Subaru is a niche manufacturer, so they're not expected to compete with the mainstream.

    -juice
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    The Outback should be offered:

    H6 4AT
    H6 5MT

    H6T 4AT
    H6T 5MT

    VTD standard on all models with VDC an option.

    Say, how about a turbo charger that can be turned on and off. It would be great for snow and ice driving not to have a turbocharger kick in... just a thought
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    Why? They (Subaru) has just introduced an all-new 5AT.

    Bob
  • smo615smo615 Posts: 15
    There is a new press release on Subaru's Global site concerning the 2005 Legacy to be at the Frankfurt Auto show in Sept. They list the 3.0 engine at 245hp if I am reading it right. Both the Legacy and the Outback will come with the new 3.0 engine called the 3.0R.

    I wonder how the 3.0R will compare with the 2.5 turbo to be released later. I have read 250 hp which would be strange if the 3.0R is 245hp. But maybe each engine will have different characteristics. Automobile Mag. says the the new Legacy will be out next spring, and the turbo release will be later.
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    Lots of people predicted this including me. The reasons I think it did not work:
    1) The current H6 is not that great. It quiet and better than the H4 but nothing special. Lacks low end grunt and it not suitable for towing.
    2) The H6 should have been standard on all the OB variants along with VDC.
    3) A manual transmission should have been made available from the start. This would have made it one of very few SUV/hybrids with this feature. If they were going to go auto only then a 5AT should have been standard with a much lower first gear.
    4) The LL Bean and VDC models were just not a good idea from the start. $33k??? Thats $6k more than an OB Limited. The Bean would be about $3k more than the Ltd. In the end you are getting VDC, H6, and a fancy stereo for $6000. $2-2.5 perhaps but surely not $6000.

    If it were lots better than my wifes 2k OB Ltd. she would be driving the VDC now. We just looked at the VDC again because of the $2k cash back + 0% + Subaru dollars she piled up. Its definately better but not by much. Not enough take on car payments again.

    I still contend that if Subaru played their cards right he H6 in the Outback would have been a big success. The do have a much more difficult sell ahead with lots of options in the AWD wagon/SUV hybrids world from premium brand that start around $35k. I dont think they want to go there just yet.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I don't think it's the H6 so much as it is the gearing and the auto tranny itself (4 speed only, plus it hesitates). So fix the tranny first.

    Price was an issue, though.

    -juice
  • lumbarlumbar Posts: 421
    IMO Subaru's relative inflexibility with the available configurations may have hurt sales also. First, and for quite awhile, you -had- to get a Bean or VDC (I didn't want either) for an H6; now you can't get "non-Bean" leather unless you go aftermarket (still no sale for me). It seems somewhat parallel to the XT Forester issue with no MT and premium package.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 426
    We love our 2001 LLBean with 46K miles. Flawless, except for initial warped rotors.

    Subaru upped the build quality with the H6 after some problems and bad press in the first year of the 2000 redesign. They knew they had to get it right.

    The lack of low torque kind of fits its heavy character - in a Subaru quirky kind of way....

    It's our black mini-tank... LOL...

    Ralph
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    Sorry, I did mean with a 5 speed.

    The engine itself seems like it would be good for towing. It is the rest of the drivetrain that reduces the capacity. (Europe and Austrailia models can tow 3500 lbs, but we are much more regulated here)

    I think it feels like it lacks low-end grunt because of the weight of the car.

    What I really think however, is that Subaru convert the Outback into something more along the lines of the VW Touraeg. Even if we like Subaru's for their uniqueness, I think that they have to keep up with the mainstream in order to stay competitave. Personally, I would not buy a Touraeg, or many otherr SUV's, but I would strongly consider a larger Outback with more capabilities.

    Going even further out on a limb here, I would like to see a diesel offerred in the Outback. Not some light duty engine like the one featured in the Jetta TDI, but one with real grunt to further enhance towing. With the cost of fuel now, and the fact that you get better mileage with diesel (and it is cleaner) I think it would make more "trailer-pulling familly vacationers" interested in it.

    How many SUV's now are offered with a diesel? It would be a wise move.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Only the Excursion, I think.

    Isuzu might do a Rodeo replacement with the diesel.

    -juice
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    When compared to other $30k (MSRP) vehicles the Outback (as the VDC and Bean) draws the short straw.

    The 2 main quasi-SUV alternatives that come to mind are the Pilot and the Highlander. The actual SUV for those who need it that comes to mind is the Envoy.

    Just for comparison Subaru priced the Outback VDC above the following:

    Honda Pilot EX AWD, Leather, 3.5L 6cyl 5spd auto, 240hp. $30.5k.

    Toyota Highlander Limited AWD, 3.0L 6cyl 4spd auto, 220hp. $31k.

    GMC Envoy SLE 4WD, 4.2L 6cyc 4spd auto, 275hp. $30.8k

    The Outback "should" be priced at $29k based on whats out there.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 426
    and that's why you shouldn't pay over invoice for an LLBean or VDC (any time of year)!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, that is about where the list price on the LL Bean is, maybe a grand higher.

    Subaru has lots of content, things like heated seats and 2 moonroofs, too. If you equip the others that way, it adds a few grand more.

    The VDC is about the stability control system, so really you'd have to move up to an Acura MDX (with optional features) to match it.

    -juice
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    for something like $700. Its a "stand alone" option our local dealers dont really keep them on lots because I'm told that most people will not pay for it. They will pay for other things like larger engine, CD player upgrades, DVD, leather, appearance packages but are far less likely to pay for traction control and VSC. Even AWD is low on the lists of most car buyers. You can also get heated seats on the Highlander too as an option. I forget the cost ($300?). I dont think that the Pilot offers VSC at all but I would have to look.

    Clearly none of this applies to people who already want a Subaru. I'm sure the goal of the VDC and Bean was to push the name upsale AND get new customes into the Subaru line. Its why I thought Subaru should have made the H6 and VDC standard. It would have been great for the people who already know the value of AWD and VDC. It would also allow new customers to get into an Outback with a H6 for $25k instead of $30K+. In the end I think it would have made the Subaru faithful happy and other buyers far less likely to balk at the price.

    The content level in the VDC is nice BUT the others I mentioned have more room (even 3rd row in the Pilot), more options (like NAV/DVD if you want them, 6cyc w/o high cost options), tow more, and have more power (not better performance). Lets put it this way: They do more things the VDC cannot for less money if you want.
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    probably would have a turbocharged 2.5 for the L and a base 2.5 for whatever they stick under the L. The GT should get the H6 or a high pressure turbocharged version of the 2.5. By the way, any one know if the next Legacy will ever offer a 60/40 split fold seat back.
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    Outback really was the car that set the stage for "crossover" vehicles. Volvo, Audi and others have followed suit, but many have surpassed the Outback in terms of design, features and amenities. Don't get me wrong, I like my Outback and would probabally not choose something else if the oppertunity presented itself, but I think that Subaru needs to respond by raising the bar again. In my opinion, I think the 2005MY would have been a great time to do so with many recent competitive offerings popping up.

    Personally, I think that the Outback should not use the same frame that the Legacy does. It needs further seperation. As I posted above, a Touraeg sized Outback would be my next purchase. Heck, if Porsche jumped on the SUV bandwagon, I think Subaru would be smart to do so.

    For the true SUV haters, why not have a blend of the Touraeg and the Murano? Now that would be a stellar Outback!

    (Say, is the Subaru design team hiring?)
  • jchan, i recall reading somewhere that the 05 Legacy GT comes with power reclining and folding split reat seats. i assume they are 60/40 split with the 5 seat set up.
       Personally, i dont like power folding seats, esp in a wagon. but thats what the market demands now.
    Mark
  • Hello:

    Great forum everyone. Thanks for all the input. I currently have a 1998 Passat GLX. I was just about to buy a new Passat 4motion when I saw the info on the 2005 Legacy. The car looks very nice. I am looking for a sedan in AWD and narrowed my choices to a Volvo s60, Passat AWD and 2005 Legacy. I am around 6 2" and my wife is 5 feet nothing and we LOVE the memory seats our current GLX has. Does anyone know if the 2005 Legacy will have memory drivers seats?

    Thanks again for all the info. I am frustratingly anticipating seeing this new subaru.

    Reagrds,

    Will
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    While I'm making a list: Subaru need to increasing the tow rating to 4-5k lbs. Why? Even a 10' pop-up type camper is usually over 2500lbs. A nice size pop-up like the Coleman Grand Tour (that we just looked at) is between 3500-4000lbs.
  • I'm the guy whose cousin owns a dealership, good source of inside information.

    Subaru is developing a 7 passenger vehicle to compete with the likes of the BMW X5, so maybe they heard you.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    I too would like to see more towing capability (as just about everyone on this board knows).

    I'd also like to see, in regards to a towing package:

    * The self-leveling rear suspension.

    * Dual-range trannys (both manual & automatic) for aiding in pulling a boat out of the water on a steep boat ramp.

    * An electric brake control that is nicely integrated into the interior.

    * A driver-controlled brake assist of some sort (larger brakes with an extra set of on-demand calibers?), that will allow for unbraked trailers up to 3000 pounds.

    * A hitch receiver and plug that is intigrated into the rear bumper.

    I'm going to post this over in the "Suggestions for Subaru" forum too.

    Bob
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    I hope that the interior has more tan- I like that interior color!
  • zinny, a pretty thorough review at apexjapan site specifically questioned the lack of memory in otherwise very nice power adjustable drivers seat in the Legacy GT, at least the JDM release.

    i dont know if the front passenger seat has power adjustment or not. thats always been a peeve of mine and a big reason we didnt buy an OB wagon three years ago and went, instead, with an Audi A6...even our '94 Explorer has fully adjustable passenger seat, just like the driver's.

    Mark
  • ace1000ace1000 Posts: 151
    I'm considering cars to replace my 1995 Volvo 850 turbowagon, and the 2005 Legacy as well as the Forester XT are in the running. People's comments about features and preferences are making me realize how hard it will be to replace.

    A partial list of features: My Volvo tows up to 3300 lbs, has a high quality tan leather interior, three-way memory seats for both driver and passenger, dual-zone heating/AC with easy-to-use dials, more options for directing the air flow than most other cars, a stereo with big buttons and separate buttons for FM 1 & 2 and AM 1 & 2. This is important to me because my kids use FM2 and AM2 and I use FM1 and AM1, and having separate buttons rather than a sequential selector makes life a lot easier.

    The car accelerates about as well as an XT AT but gets better gas mileage. It handles much better and stops better than an XT. It is roomier than the current Legacy, and I can't imagine a Subaru being more reliable than it has been. There are a number of things I like about the Subaru models in comparison to other cars including the current Volvo models, but I wonder if I will have to give up too much even with the new Legacy. Since it looks like and runs almost like new, I may decide to keep the Volvo and make any repairs until something catastrophic happens. At that point, though, I want to be able to know what I want to replace it with.

    Maybe Subaru should offer something that Vovlo offers according to Edmunds' full test of the 1996 Volvo turbo: $250,000 to the estate of any occupant killed as the result of an accident. I never knew about this, and I'm not sure I want my family to know.
  • Thanks subewannabe. This is going tp make the choice between a Passat GLX and the subaru even harder..........hmmmmm.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    A bunch of us here are hoping (praying!) the new Legacy and Outback will match the Volvo's 3300 pound towing. If not the Legacy, certainly the Outback, since that model will more likely to see towing duty.

    Bob
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