Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

bookemdano

It's a dead-giveaway that you like the car! (Ya gotta make the salesman think it's the great price he's giving you that sold the car!) :-)

Regards,

Dan.

legacy191

Went to the local Subie dealer in MPLS and looked at the 05' 2.5i sedan. Turbo won't arrive for about 2 weeks. To me the 05' seems tighter than the 99'GT we had a year ago. Since they didn't have a turbo,I didn't drive the car, but heres what I got out of it. If they decide to put NAV. in the car, watch out for increased attention from the state police just because of where it is installed. Since I didn't drive it and WE are also comparing it to a G35 with the Premium Pak. and body kit, for the tightness of the G35 I don't see the justification for the $6500 difference. But if this turbo doesn't drive as good as I think it should, I won't blink twice to buy the G35 over the Subie. But I have 2 weeks to wait till a turbo arrives at a Luther dealership in Minnesota..

Tony T

legacy191

The legacy I looked at yesterday had Leather, sport shift, power driver seat, and 6cd in dash for about $26400. I'm hoping the turbo comes in at about $3000 more...

Tony T

alpha01

You dont have to hope, here is the pricing on the Legacy:



http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html#price

The model you saw was the 2.5i Limited, by the way.

~alpha

grove4

I wanted to let you all know my thoughts on this awesome car.I got the silver gt with black leather.I cant see how anyone could spend for anything else for 27,500.Thats what I paid totally loaded and no ext warranty.I also have a forester xt so I was expecting same power.The legacy is a 5sp.This thing fricken rips,it has power everywhere in the rpm range,doesnt seem to matter what gear you are in.I just cannot believe it is a 4cyl.I just cannot believe that.The car handles evenly with a wrx and I drove them back to back.I also drove a BMW 330i sport package.The BMW will be looking at this cars tail lights, believe me.Also you get all weather capability and a very quiet ride.What more could you want?I will comment more when i get more seat time.

chassol

grove4 - Where are you in the US?

My dealer hasn't even seen the invoices for any GT Limited let alone the vehicle.

Thanks,

Chassol

rsholland

Congrats on your new ride! Keep us posted, as I'm sure everyone here is dying to know what it's like to "live" with.

Bob

rsholland

All the '05 models and specs are now on the SOA website. Some interesting specs here on turning circles for various Subies:

05 Legacy GT, sedan & wagon = 35.4'

05 WRX, sedan & wagon = 35.4'

05 STi = 37.4'

05 Forester XT = 34.8'

I'm surprised that the long-wheelbase Legacy has the same turning circle as the short-wheelbase WRX. Even more surprising is that the F-XT gas the smallest turning circle.

Bob

kens

First of all, welcome to the Crew! You'll find a lot of knowledgable people here. Be sure to explore some of the other topics as well.

On to your questions.

I don't believe wood grain is available in the GT or GT Ltd. Although it was a pre-production vehicle, the GT Ltd. I sat in at Detroit was wood-free.

Here in the SF Bay Area, dealers are not getting GTs until the end of June.

It is interesting that those vehicles come up in the comparisons with the GT. I guess Edmund's bought into Subaru's new positioning of the Legacy. However, I do feel that other car publications will compare it with a few more affordable models.

The G35 is a very nice vehicle. For me, the biggest downside is that there is no wagon version in the US. The Legacy GT gives me almost everything that the G35 does but at a much lower price point. I don't know what G35s go for, but I would not expect the GT to sell for at or over MSRP several months into it's intro.

In fact, I just placed an order with my local dealer for a Legacy GT Ltd. wagon. Their pricing from the get-go was $1000 over invoice. At first, I was a little taken back since Subarus typically go for $200-500 over invoice around here. However, considering it is a new model and that $1K is just about 3% of the total vehicle cost, I felt it was fair.

Ken

iluvsubaru2

For What's It's Worth,
The Bean is among the best handling vehicles I've driven. The 17 inch wheels, the more even front and rear default torque of VTD, and improvements in OB suspension create impressive handling. If one added VDC superb fair weather handling should carry over into rain, snow and ice.

One item needs fixing though, and that's Bean's nasty "turbo lag". Punch the accelerator from a dead stop such as entering a freeway or making a left turn and it takes too long before the Bean moves. It's unsafe. In the Sportshift mode (1st gear) lag is cut in half but still too long. For no turbo lag off the line, you might want to look at a real turbo, Forester XT.
         
Stability Control and AWD: for those of you who think AWD alone is protection on ice, be careful because it's going to hurt. AWD is little better than FWD with excellent snow tires. From my own experience, tires make the most difference on ice, though not much difference. AWD on the non-VTD AWD that Subaru uses in all MT/AT Foresters and most OBs doesn't much help for icy roads. On snow or mud at VERY slow speeds AWD helps. But on icy streets and highways at traffic speeds AWD alone doesn't count for much.
 
Breaking traction is the problem. 4X zero traction is no better than 2X zero traction. Subaru's version of yaw control (lateral stability) and traction control (forward motion) is VDC. It works very well. But not all traction/stability controls are created equal.

The criteria of an effective Stability/Traction Control System are fast and accurate detection of imminent loss of vehicle's intended forward and/or lateral motion AND the effectiveness of corrective action (ie does the system save your bacon?).

Lexus's first traction control systems, to cite one example, were OK on wet pavement but did not react fast enough for icy roads to prevent loss of traction and stability.

What makes Subaru's OB VDC so good is VTD coupled with VDC. VTD moves torque around faster (VTD has more even front/rear torque split at it's default setting vs rest of Subarus AT AWDs) and VDC makes sure lateral and linear traction don't break, and if one tosses in 2005's superb suspension system, the OB VDC is about as good as it gets.

Jake
PS: I won't be buying a 2005 OB VDC. The sad fact is for drivers over six foot, the OB w/moonroof is uncomfortable. If one is over 6'2" it's unsafe as well. Outbound visibility is seriouly reduced by the mirror at or below driver's eye level. Worse, a tall driver's head is so close to the B-pillar and interior ceiling near the door that head injury is almost guaranteed in a side impact collision (ie the seat deployed SAB don't provide full head coverage for taller drivers and side curtains don't appear to offer protection from contact with pillars and roof, and likely don't provide enough deployment force to move the head out of harms way). For me collision avoidance and crash protection deficiencies are deal breakers. Are you listening Subaru?

grove4

I live in lancaster Pa.I am pretty sure I am the only one around that has one so far.Actually the guy that ordered this car sold the one he had and needed transportation immediatly so he bought a s60r volvo.Just so happens this is the color and everything I was waiting for so I grabbed it.My dealer says the invoice is 27,000 and he took 500 so I paid 27500.You can expect to see it with a sticker of 29k or so.I am talking limited GT.What a wonderful car in all aspects.I am really suprised how upscale the interior is and how quiet the cabin is.That was one of the beefs I always had with subaru,but this car is totally different.Oh I wanted to say this car came off the truck to the dealer on 5/18.The regular 05 cars were there on 5/16.This thing is worth waiting for and if you are considering a sports sedan you got to drive it.On top of all that it goes in the snow.You cant beat it.

snowbird

Ken: $1,000 over invoice is not that bad, considering this is a 2005 "Hot" model. Whereabout is your dealer located?

kmartin

I can't get the page to load, either. Must really be a system error (a computer first!?)

-KarenM-

rsholland

One item needs fixing though, and that's Bean's nasty "turbo lag". Punch the accelerator from a dead stop such as entering a freeway or making a left turn and it takes too long before the Bean moves. It's unsafe. In the Sportshift mode (1st gear) lag is cut in half but still too long. For no turbo lag off the line, you might want to look at a real turbo, Forester XT.

Turbo lag? Not on the Bean, as it doesn't have a turbo. What you're talking about is a lack of low-end power. I agree, hence my earlier comment regarding my desire to see a 3.3 or 3.5 engine. As the H-6 is currently tuned, it's a mid to high-rpm engine. It's much better than before, but there is still a lack down low grunt.

As to handling, I really can't comment on the Outback, as our drive in that model was limited to mainly straight roads. The Legacy GT, on the other hand I can comment on. It seemed mostly neutral driving through the infield at Las Vegas Speedway. If anything, there's a hint of oversteer, as I came close to applying some opposite lock on the steering to keep the rear end from swinging out. All-in-all, an excellent handling car. I can't wait to drive one under normal road conditions.

Bob

heavyb

One item needs fixing though, and that's Bean's nasty "turbo lag".

Turbo lag in an L.L. Bean Outback???

The sad fact is for drivers over six foot, the OB w/moonroof is uncomfortable.

Not sure where this is coming from. I'm 6'1" and I didn't notice any horrible visibility issues with the 2005 Outback ltd I sat in today.

Cheers,
HeavyB

iluvsubaru2

Bob,
Obviously the the Bean ain't a turbo, hence "turbo lag". But the effect of executing a left turn (from a standstill at an intersection) was a delay long enough to cause real trouble if one misjudges either the speed of on-coming traffic and/or the coefficient of friction of the pavement you're standing on. It was far from responsive.

As I said, sportshift cut that lag in half but for a 30K car I was surprised. As for the rest of the torque range, for other gears, it was fine, but not spectacular. My point was really aside from your observation of a 3.5 vs 3.0. This "lag" from a stop reminds of the earlier 2003 Foresters. After sometime, as I recall, SOA tweaked the computers and more or less fixed the problem. It's not a problem in the normally aspirated 'O4 Forester and the XT never has had turbo lag.

Jake

iluvsubaru2

I hear ya HeavyB,
If I was two inches shorter the Bean, VDC or any OB with a moonroof would be doable. But at a shade beyond 6'3" it's not. It may not seem like much but add two inches and mirror blocks my visual field, so I lose about 15 degrees of central. And then, as I said, there is that little matter of headroom.

Look, I've no doubt SOA has it's reasons for insisting anyone who wants a Bean must take a moonroof with it. The Bean's about luxury. But I have no patience for SOA withholding VDC, after what, four years?, from every other vehicle they produced except an LL Bean.

Jake

rsholland

Jake

Part of the problem is 250 HP from a 3.0 is a lot, as most of that power is made higher up on the rev scale. Couple that to a ~ 3500 lb car, and something has to give. If Subaru offered 250 HP 3.5 engine, I'm sure there would be a much better response at low rpms.

I know Honda offers ~ 240 HP on their 3.0 Accord, but I'm sure it's quite a bit lighter than the Outback.

Bob

subearu

is only available on the VDC Outbacks. VTD is available on the WRX AT and the '04 Legacy GT. I think the Baja Turbo AT gets it too.

-Brian

luck11

This discussion has peaked my interest. I am just a hair over 6'4" and with my current 00 OB, I like to keep the seat at max height. I believe the moon roof will also be an issue for me considering that my head is rather close to the roof in my current OB.

Another thing. I notice on current and past model years (00 -04), the Ltds and Bean's had a blue sunshield at the top of the windshield. If my current vehicle had this band, and if I drove in my desired seating position, I would be looking through the blue band. Do all the 05 OB or GT wagons also have this sunshield?

iluvsubaru2

Bob,
Maybe you're correct. What I experienced could be acute lack of low end torque that's baked in the 3.O cake.

But I don't recall similar problems doing the same tests with the H6 when it was first was introduced. The same engine, right?

Certainly hope SOA could do a work around short of new engine. Unless I got a lemon, I'd say whatever the cause, it's a problem. For that kinda of money one expects better.

Jake

iluvsubaru2

At 6'4" you're at the edge of the envelope. Maybe you have a shorter torso than I do, but then you take it in the legs, I guess.

What I liked about the 2005, that initially gave me hope of fitting into a Bean/VDC, was the change to the seat. Seemed able to go back further and it seemed the vehicle was a bit wider which means moving the head of us tall guys away from the curvature in the interior roof at the doors.

As it turn out for me, the base model is a bit roomier, but the luxury Bean is as tight as ever. Not sure why, even the passenger side is bad news on the the Bean while it's doable on the MT 2.5 OB I tested with it.

Jake

rsholland

But I don't recall similar problems doing the same tests with the H6 when it was first was introduced. The same engine, right?

The new 3.0 has variable valve timing, which could (?) be the problem. It puts out much more power in mid and high rpm than the old engine. However I'm not sure about low end power. If the low end power is about the same, then mid and high rpm power will feel significantly more, and the disparity between low end power and mid-high end power will be greatly exagarated. Hence it may feel like a dog, when you start off, but picks up speed very quickly as the revs rise.

The old 3.0 had 212 HP and 212 torque

The new 3.0 has 250 HP and 219 torque. The torque is still pretty weak on the new H-6. On the other hand the new turbo has 250 HP and 250 torque. The turbo has a better power band. It's not as peaky as the H-6.

Bob

c_hunter

Folks, don't forget that Soob's auto transimissions need to learn your style for a couple weeks. Right out of the box, they are going for max economy. After you teach it your habits, which may involve a lead foot throttle off the line, it will get better.

I don't know about the new H6 models, but my 02 LL Bean will accelerate quite briskly from a stop (especially if you hammer the throttle to invoke the "sport" mode). It's enough to send cargo and any loose items sliding to the rear of the car.

Craig

rsholland

They do have adaptive trannys, which take a while to learn your driving style.

Bob

kens

That would be Santa Cruz Subaru in Santa Cruz, CA. They're pretty well known for their competitive pricing and excellent service. A local favorite.

Their next closest competitor, Carlsen Subaru in Redwood City, CA is asking full MSRP.

Ken

iluvsubaru2

Craig,
Your point's well-taken except, I tend to agree with Bob. It's way too much hesitation off the line. Perhaps it's possible SOA could use the the AT's learning capacity to craft a "workaround" (but it will take a lot of teaching I think:-).

Bob,
Don't have the specs in front of me but I'll bet the first year H6 VDC weighed in heavier than the 2005 Bean/VDC. But after thinking about it some more you're probably right: the low-end torque baked in the cake. My recollection of my first VDC test drive is vivid, not a glitch with the vehicle (except bad fit for me). Would have remembered poor low-end torque. Think you've got it right.

Thanks for the inputs,
Jake

heavyb

Are the 5EAT trannies in the 2005 Legacy GTs adaptive as well??

Cheers,
HeavyB

chassol

grove4,

Thanks for the response with your location. My dealer is in Florida and 1st unit is Obsidian Black Pearl exterior and Perforated Taupe Leather-trimmed interior. Options are Automatic SPORTSHIFT, Perimeter Alarm & Auto-Dimming Mirror/Compass package, and Subwoofer/Amplifier -sticker is $30,741. Next to come is same package and interior, but exterior will be Regal Blue Pearl. Having hard time deciding on which color. Both are dark and ordered (sold) units are 3-4 which will use up allocations till July or August, if I wanted to order one, unless they can get an increase.

Saw the Atlantic Blue Pearl / Granite Gray Opal on an LL Bean Outback Wagon with sticker in excess of $33,600. Nice, but would IMHO look better without the two-tone.

BTW grove4 were the side windows tinted darker than the 04's?

Again Thanks grove4

PS I am leaning towards the
Obsidian Black Pearl.

brady_bunch

Ok, Tony, I did not notice a smiley in your post so I am guessing you're serious. Explain to me why I should "watch out for increased attention from the state police" regarding the location of the nav.

Regarding the G35, I was somewhat disappointed by the incredibly sensitive brakes. I have never test driven any car that had brakes that were that touchy.

Let me know what you think when you get to test drive the GT.

- Brady

warpas

Drove an OB Bean. Very nice except for the low end wimpiness. But the lack of a decent armrest really bothered me. Way to low and shallow. Anyone else notive this or am I spoiled by my Audi?

rsholland

I agree about the armrest 100%. Subaru offers, as an option an armrest extension for the new Legacys and Outbacks. It has a button, that when pushed, moves the armrest up and forward, much like the armrest found on the Honda Accords. When raised, it acts as an armrest should. This absolutely should be standard, and not optional.

Bob

johnclineii

Is that a dealer installed accessory? How much is the thing?

rsholland

I think it will be offered both ways, from the factory and from the dealer. In either case, it's well worth the cost, of which I don't know. There's a picture in the brochure of it.

Bob

grove4

I dont know if the windows are tinted more or not.I guess being in florida you dont care about my comment about driving in snow.Last night I had a chance to go out for a drive and I turned the a/c off.I just can not believe how fast this car is.They said the forester xt is under rated at 210hp.(I have one).Well it feels like the legacy is underrated at 250hp.The reason I said I turned the a/c off is b/c it felt like the power backed off when the rpms got high with it on.Maybe that is the computer b/c of it spinning the a/c compressor to fast.I really dont know Im just saying how it felt.Either way I need to drive easy for a while but I also wanted to test it out.Also was very impressed with hoe the headlights worked.They make a straight line out ahead of you.And the dash lights are all red at night.As I drive it I will comment more.

c_hunter

Congratulations to all the new owners! Keep those comments coming, I am enjoying all the info.

Craig

legacy191

Because in Minnesota they are checking anyone with a NAV system thats sits that high because of a law they have on the books in this state about DVD screens being forward of the front seats. As for the brakes on the G35, touchy was not the word. I drove two G35's that day and I can honestly say both of them had pretty sensitive brakes !!!!

Tony T

legacy191

Thanks alpha, this just made my decision, now to convince the wife !!!

Tony T

rsholland

Ditto what Craig said. Congrats to all, and keep those comments coming.

Bob

cusafr

Dumb Question for those in the know!

I know the Turbo Legacy has a functional hood scoop. When it rains "cats and dogs" as it does at times in my part of the country, wouldn't the rain be sucked up into the turbo or engine and have adverse effects on same?

Thanks for your assistance,

CUSAFR

rsholland

Turbo owners??? The WRX, STi and FXT have the same issue. What's the scoop (pun intended)?

Bob

dejuan

The scoop directs air to the intercooler, which is designed to cool the air before it hits the turbine. I would imagine that precipitation that does find its way to the intercooler fins would only help in the air cooling process by speeding the heat dissipation (sp?), very much like those systems in some intercooled turbos which spray water on the intecooler fins.

njswamplands

rsholland

Much to my surprise, the dealer in Catonsville MD has a new silver '05 Legacy GT Limited 5EAT wagon with square set roof rack cross bars sitting right out front. Saw it about an hour ago.

Bob

subewannabe

My local dealer literally talked me into a short test drive yesterday in his first Legact GT, even though it was a sedan and he knows I'm only looking at wagons.I protested, not too loudly, that a customer who cancelled the order on a BMW and was going to buy that car in the next 72 hours and would want nobody else's footprints on the pedals! It was an Atlantic Blue LTD w/ MT. A beautiful piece of machinery.
    I kept my drive under 2 miles, all twisty steep roads through the hills behind the dealership, a route I chose very deliberately. I only got it out of 3rd once, but covered a lot of shifts with the MT along the way. One word review: WOW!!
  The car steers ,rides and accelerates through the curves better than any "stock" car I've ever driven and the brakes are just as impressive. There is a great balance of performance with ride quality.The interior quality approaches Audi. The front seats are a driver's dream and the rear seats, themselves, are deeper and more comfortable than I expected.
  There's just one problem, and it may push me off the Fence the other way...to a Forester XT: the way those new performance front seats are mounted to the floor leaves less than 1" of space under the front seat for the rear passengers' toes. There is plenty of leg room in back, at least where I would position the front seat, a little rear of center ( I'm 5'10") but nowhere for rear passengers to put big feet, and my family grows big feet. Thus, your feet feel wedged-in and immobilized rather than relaxed, and your knees are forced upward at an angle that would soon feel awkward on a long trip. We sat in the OB LLBean and its the same situation.
  I will go back this week when I have more time to look closer and determine whether the obstruction is a solid part of the seat or a carpet-covered plastic strip to keep things out of the power seat mechanism, which I might be able to trim or remove.
   P.S What a difference, looks -wise , between the Legacy GT and the OB! The Legacy with the ground-effects body trim down low looks lean,sleek and fast; the Outback looks like it could drive over another car if it was in the way! You could sleep under the car if you forgot your tent!
  I would be very interested in any other big-footed folks impressions , 'cause I really want to put a Legacy GT in my garage!

Mark

rsholland

There's just one problem, and it may push me off the Fence the other way...to a Forester XT: the way those new performance front seats are mounted to the floor leaves less than 1" of space under the front seat for the rear passengers' toes.

Mark, I noticed that too—and it seems really dumb! That should be changed, no doubt about it.

BTW, I was sitting in the back of an Outback sedan, so it's not just the Legacy GT.

Bob

johnclineii

I noticed the same thing at the Detroit Auto Show (NAIAS), but chalked it up to being a prototype. If this is what the wagons are like, I fear I will be buying a Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego, with its relatively underpowered 3 liter 203 horsepower, 207 ft lb torque Duratech. (Or possibly even the Freestyle)..and with Volvo's Haldex AWD system. I'd rather have the Subie, but...

I need the backseat space in the worst way.

Subaru, why did you do this?

ryanl1

Seriously considering Legacy GT sedan from a longtime Honda/Acura owner.Is there any relationship between Subaru and GM/Saab?

johnclineii

Yep. GM has a 20 percent interest in Fuji Heavy Industries LTD, parent of Subaru...

You may also want to look at: http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/press/2003/03_10_20e.htm

ryanl1

Thanks for the response.I get conflicting answers from a "no" to "don't know" from Subaru owners.I guess my real question is does the Legacy GT use any GM technology/parts?