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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    I don't think there is a document that specifically calls out cloth on the GT. Instead, you need to read into the fact that Subaru points out leather on the Ltd versions only.

    There used to be a list of order codes over at nabisco. Perhaps they had some mention of the interior fabric.

    I doubt the moonroof will be an option on the standard GT. Subaru has typically kept the "premium" packages together as a bundle. Perhaps later in the product lifecycle, but at least not this year.

    Ken
  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    SoA is pretty consistent in packaging the sunroof and leather as a package with the power seats and upgraded sound system for the last couple years. From everything we've seen so far, you have to get the LTD version of the 2.5i or the XT 2.5T to get either from the factory, and then you get both. The biggest change for 05 is that they will let you get the sunroof and leather with a MT..lots of folks complained about that limitation in the 04 Forester XT.

    mark
  • rsq798rsq798 Posts: 35
    Do you think that 6 months from today is enough time for Subaru to make the 2.5 available through the VIP Partner's Program, even if it's still a 2005 model in 2004? I would like to get a new car this year. I suppose it depends on how hot they're selling then, which could also be impacted by the fall intro of the Outback models?
  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    As far as I know, the Forester XT was never excluded by dealers from the VIP program. Since the OB and Legacy are intended to be the volume leaders for SoA, I doubt they will be excluded, especially since the plant in Indiana is gaining additional capacity with closure of the Isuzu assembly line. To loosely paraphrase Jay Leno for Frito-Lay: "Buy all you want. We'll make more!" You just may have to wait a while to get the exact car you want.
    Mark
  • bat1161bat1161 Posts: 1,784
    Quick question for you- how soon after joining IMBA did you hear from them? I sent them a chek to join about a month ago, but I haven't heard anything since. It is a good program, and an added incentive towards going for th 05.

    Mark
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Posts: 42
    The most recent automotive news comments that the new legacy and OB are being pushed upscale and states that the price increases are higher than normal. According to a SOA spokesperson the higher prices are because of improved styling (huh??) and new features. ABS, EBD, and high quality interiors are standard--(I don't get the last one)! SOA says that Subaru carries a $1500 incentive cost. SOA wants to compete against AUDI but admits it will take several years. Also, SOA wants Legacy to be a premium brand but not a luxury brand. Well there you have it from SOA via Automotive News...greater than normal price increase and hoping to hit 90,000 units in 2004. I still believe they are about $1500 above where they need to be on MSRP across the board. Now if there is real quality, fit and finish, and NVH improvements then they should have a 4 year BTB warranty to reflect the move up and really compete in the premium brand. That extra year might entice fence sitters. Also, SOA is "resisting" offering DVD and navigation on Legacys and OB (to keep cost down?) but will offer it on the new SUV.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    taoman- Many thanks! I have book marked the site and will check it out when I have a few more seconds.

    zoomer1- I think you're wrong with respect to pricing. If you look at the rest of the midsize market- the Legacy competes well on price when you factor in its AWD.

    Example-An Accord EX with side airbags and curtains is $23,320. Granted, that model gives you a moonroof, power seat, and 6 disc in dash CD changer, but a Legacy 2.5i with auto and side airbags/curtians is expected to be about $22,600. So for a savings of 7xx dollars, you get AWD but give up a couple of conveniences. Seems fair to me, and I'm sure SOA will offer an options package or two for the 2.5i and GT models- because there's a decent gap in features and price to the 2.5 Limited and GT Limited models.

    ~alpha
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Posts: 42
    Since it is MY opinion it is not wrong but you may disagree with it. No sweat.

    First, Honda Accord EX with side airbags and curtains is $22k with M/T and $22.8 with AT($1,320 and $520 less). That is a considerable difference and could be significant to consumers.

    Second, the Accord is a larger car with greater height, width, length, and overall interiro space. Under the EPA/DOT class definition the Honda is a true Midsize while the Legacy qualifies as a Compact so I would disagree with your statement that they both qualify as Midsize. You may disagree with the EPA and DOT on the car's classification as it currently stands but that is what the classification is.

    Third, I agree that AWD is a value proposition and as such one should pay for it. My read of the industry magazines including trade specific literature shows that when it comes to AWD versus price and reputation...consumers in general favor price over features above and beyond the norm (generally considered as p/s, p/w, AT, ABS, Airbags, AC, power seats, remote fuel and trunk). So, SOA is competing with brands who push out 150k to 280k units that can be price elastic. SOA needs to position themselves at a price that is marginally higher but not so high as to create a really large price difference.

    To take your example the Accord model you cite is priced lower than the GT Sedan by almost $3000 and it has several features that are optional on the Subaru (AWD excepted). The L model of the Subaru is $2000 less than the Accord model you use as an example and has an even greater lack of standard features (Intellichoice and Edmunds used for comparos).

    If you are an SOA afficionado you will believe that AWD is worth the extra money--we are a small group in the compact segment (80,000 units last year). So, if you are AWD neutral and price sensitive that is a tough sell. If you AWD averse then the proposition is a non-starter as the Accord competes with or beats the Subaru on NCAP, Reliability, Depreciation, Resale, and we have already discussed dimensions.

    It is easy for SOA to get lost in the compact crowd. Midsize segment sold well over 1 million units. To wit, last year SOA had a LOSS of $28.5 million.

    My point is that AWD just by itself won't sell Legacies any more. More cars will have AWD and since larger companies can amortize the costs over several hundred thousand units they can eat the increases taking the AWD cache away from SOA. By pricing the cars 4% or higher for 2005, depending on models, while others introduce AWD on larger cars that are priced similarly is a risky gamble for SOA.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    First, according to Honda's website AND Carsdirect.com

    2004 Accord EX Auto w/ std Side Airbags and optional Side Curtains plus dest:

    MSRP: $23,290

    vs.

    Anticipated Legacy 2.5i Auto w/ Side Airbags and Curtains and dest.

    MSRP: $22,570

    (Perhaps youre numbers dont include destination charge?)

    Second, thats fine the EPA/DOT classify the Accord as a Mid-size and the Legacy a compact. The fact of the matter is that they are competitors, you will see them in comparison tests against each other, and many consumers (I'm NOT saying ALL) WILL cross-shop the two (as my parents will in October). If you want to read that as meaning I disagree with the EPA/DOT classification that's fine.

    Third, "To take your example the Accord model you cite is priced lower than the GT Sedan by almost $3000 and it has several features that are optional on the Subaru (AWD excepted). The L model of the Subaru is $2000 less than the Accord model you use as an example and has an even greater lack of standard features (Intellichoice and Edmunds used for comparos)."

    What model year Legacy are you even talking about? Are you even talking about 2005? If so, there's no L model (that Im aware of anyway), and the GTs will have 250 hp, so why are you comparing a 160hp Accord to them, and then citing the substantial price difference? Very bizarre comparison.

    ~alpha
  • jim1969jim1969 Posts: 62
    I believe he's talking about the EX V6 model. It's showing up in the papers where I live for $24K. It's going to be hard for a GT Limited to compare to that price. The EX has side curtain air bags, leather heated seats, 6 disc changer in dash also. I'm trying to hold out for the Legacy GT Limited myself but Subaru isn't making the wait easy. I hope they don't price themselves out of the mix. Acura is offering AWD in their new RL. Does anyone think this won't trickle down to the TSX and Accord. I think it will.
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,924
    This talk about an astronomical price jump on the 2005 Legacy is starting to get tiresome.Why give yourself an ulcer over that which you cannot control?

    In other world markets where the new legacy is already on sale there was a minimal price increase, why would Subaru shoot themselves in the foot by pricing themselves out of the market here?

     Cheers Pat.
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Posts: 42
    Good point. I, for one, will test drive the new Legacy and bounce it against the VW 4Motion, G35x, Pacifica, and even Highlander Hybrid. I really hope SOA has done a good job with the interior. Is there any information on whether navigation is completely out for the sedans? Automotive news implied so but I wasn't sure if it was definite.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    how the price increase is THAT substantial, given the upgrades...

    ~alpha
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    All signs point to no navigation system initially. There have been some rumors of navi availability at the end of the year.

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,663
    I bet it will be a separate '06 model, and not an option. In Europe it's sold as a GTn. I bet it will be packaged here in North America the same way; all Legacys and Outbacks with nav will be ID'ed with an "n" classification.

    I also bet we'll get the Legacy H-6 w/6-speed for '06. Reportedly that car will go on sale in Europe, Oz & NZ in the fall. I bet we'll be next.

    Bottom line: I think for MY06 SOA will flush out the Legacy & Outback with all the MIA items we had hoped for for MY05.

    Bob
  • thepdmmthepdmm Posts: 82
    Navigation won't be offered in this model year, I have heard that the holdup has something to do with the future use of GM's OnStar??

    I could tell you the source of this info however either way it doesn't matter.. you can believe it or not.. I don't know if I believe it or not.. I do know that the Navigation system won't be offered.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Zoomer wrote

    high quality interiors are standard

    I noticed this right away. Thicker carpets. Padded headliner, fabric even on the A-pillar like BMW and Mercedes. No loose edges on carpets, all tucked away. Power seats with nicer fabrics and better comfort plus 4 level heat.

    You may not need or even want this, I have a feeling some will say the interior is "too nice" for the wear and tear of a family or muddy mountain bikes. But that's what they mean by that.

    Accord only comes as a sedan. I think 93% of all Outbacks are sold as wagons. With Legacy it might be less, but still, the great majority of Subies are not sedans.

    Accord also only comes with FWD. Zero Subarus with FWD now.

    Plus, keep in mind you pay more for wagons, about $1000 more. $2000 more than that for AWD. Add that to an Accord and you see the value of a Subie. In fact the Accord might get SH-AWD but that would definitely make it cost more.

    -juice
  • radianradian Posts: 21
    Juice-

    Have you seen/felt the fabrics in person? Or has anyone? I'm curious if they're like the WRX interior fabrics (shiny/smooth)? Or the STi (suede-like)? Or more like the old Legacy fabric (bland cloth)?

    Thanks,
    Luke
  • Subie sells a lot of wagons because no one else sells wagons in that price range except for Ford. ;) There's more competition for sedans.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,663
    Not Sti-like, :(

    but still very nice.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yes, there are fewer wagons competing, but Subaru sells very, very few sedans. That was my point.

    They could stop building sedans and people would barely notice!

    Mazda6 and Passat wagon are the only competitors I can think of close enough to be cross-shopped, and only VW offers AWD. Plus VW sales have plunged lately, while Subaru is growing.

    Yes I've sat in a few 2005 Legacys, and I own a 2002 so I feel qualified to say there is a noticeable move upmarket in terms of fit and finish and materials. It matches the Passat now, with a more interesting dash design. I'm impressed.

    -juice
  • Well, the Mazda6 just came out, and even though Mazda's sales are pretty booming lately, they target a different market (the WRX/XT/GT trims would overlap somewhat, but that's about it). The Passat is really (supposed to be, anyway) a level above Subaru. Hence, on the wagon, you can't get AWD much below 30k, I think.

    Still, since Subaru sells an Outback up there, it might be valid competition. But you have to throw in the Taurus/Sable twins (unfortunate, but true), and the Mazda6 wagon too. Wait...Dodge Magnum. With optional AWD, though I don't know where it's going to price. Hmm, hey Edmunds, I smell a comparison test coming! ;)
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,924
    Bawahahah, you must be joking, these bottom feeding junkers compare to nothing but themselves.

      Cheers Pat.
  • ntk1ntk1 Posts: 57
    The need-desire web site has the official prices posted
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    I want to see some comparos with:

    Audi A4 3.0 Avant
    Audi A6 3.0 Avant
    BMW 325Xi Wagon
    BMW 535i Wagon
    Mazda 6 Wagon
    Saab 9-5 Aero Wagon
    Volvo V70 T5 Wagon
    Volvo V70R Wagon

    Acura TL Sedan
    Infiniti G35/x Sedan
    Saab 9-3 Aero Sedan
    Cadillac CTS
    BMW 330i/Xi Sedan
    Volvo S60/R Sedan
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    I believe the press embargo just ended in early April. There have been sightings of 05 models around Ann Arbor so it could be the evaluations by car mags.

    Since the May issues are already out, I'd guess June.

    Ken
  • moutbackmoutback Posts: 39
    From need-desire.com:

    2005 Legacy Base MSRP:

    5-speed manual:
    2.5i Sedan: $20,995
    2.5i Wagon: $21,995
    2.5i Sedan: $24,445
    2.5i Wagon: $25,645
    2.5GT Sedan: $25,995
    2.5GT Wagon: $26,995
    2.5GT Ltd. Sedan: $28,495
    2.5GT Ltd. Wagon: $29,695

    4-speed auto:
    2.5i Sedan: $21,995
    2.5i Wagon: $22,995
    2.5i Ltd. Sedan: $25,445
    2.5i Ltd. Wagon: $26,645

    5-speed auto:
    2.5GT Sedan: $27,195
    2.5GT Wagon: $28,195
    2.5GT Ltd. Sedan: $29,695
    2.5GT Ltd. Wagon: $30,895

    2005 Outback Base MSRP:

    5-speed manual:
    2.5i Wagon: $23,995
    2.5i Ltd Wagon: $26,995
    2.5XT Wagon: $27,995
    2.5XT Ltd. Wagon: $30,695

    4-speed auto:
    2.5i Wagon: $24,995
    2.5i Ltd. Wagon: $27,995

    5-speed auto:
    2.5XT Wagon: $29,195
    2.5XT Ltd Wagon: $31,895
    3.0R Sedan: $30,995
    3.0R LL Bean: $32,195
    3.0R VDC: $33,395

    Not bad.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The new Legacy is a match for the Passat in terms of materials now. And the design is much more imaginative, sporty, cockpit-like.

    Dodge Magnum with a Hemi starts at just under $30k. But I bet the Legacy XT is quicker. Plus Magnum's AWD will cost another $2000 probably.

    Character will be 100% different, though.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,663
    in the past were too pricey because the content just wasn't there. Now it is. The closest competitor to the LL Bean and VDC is the Volvo XC70, which is a good $5 - $6K over the Subies. The Passat 4Motion competes with the Legacy GT, not the Outback.

    From what I can see so far, the Subie prices seem to be in line with the competition.

    Bob
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