Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

kens

Oh, don't worry. I'm NOT buying my Legacy at that dealership. The dealer that I am buying my Legacy GT is charging me a fixed $1000 over invoice. I just had to laugh when the salesman mentioned the $3K over MSRP without blinking.

Unfortunately, the overpriced dealership is just down the street from the office whereas the reasonable one is on the other side of the Santa Cruz mountains.

Ken

mfh

Do you mind sharing the name of the dealership that youre happy with vs the one youre not?

Im assuming youre on the SF peninsula/South Bay.

thanks

Michael

ateixeira

Not bad, with AWD and that raised suspension it still matched the 240hp Accord. And the Legacy is lighter plus with smaller diameter tires should be a few ticks quicker.

Plus, you can get any of the turbos with a manual, Accord only comes that way in a coupe.

-juice

kevin111

Curious to see. I am wondering if the Outback has a lower 1st and 2nd gearing for more off-roading, while the GT has a higher gearing in 2nd for better 0-60 times?

Just curious.

ateixeira

I think gears are identical. But the GT has smaller diameter tires, so that means each gear is slightly shorter, and it should be quicker.

Plus, it's lighter and more aerodynamic.

Those 3 factors should put it about 1/2 second ahead, is my guesstimate. I say 6.5 seconds for the auto, just under 6 seconds for the MT5.

-juice

kens

Michael,

Sure, I'm buying from Santa Cruz Subaru. The overpriced dealer that I mentioned is Stevens Creek Subaru. They do price match on occasion, but they're a very old-school dealership in my opinion.

Another good alternative to Santa Cruz is Carlsen. They also do no-haggle up-front pricing but they were asking full MSRP on the GT.

Ken

kens

I need a memory check -- didn't the original Subaru press release mention tire pressure monitoring on the GT also? I've learned that it's only available on the Bean and VDC models.

Ken

kevin111

I would be surprised if the GT sedan is not at least close with the Forester XT. The XT has been timed at 5.3 secs 0-60, so I expect the MT GT to be around that, maybe at 5.5. I think the better aerodynamics and weight will help. About 150 lbs. less than the Outback.

Now, if C&D can finally do a test!!!

once_for_all

don't forget the 40 more ponies for the GT. The 210 for the FXT turbo is on the conservative low cost insurance side, but the GT has a different peak HP rpm so I think the GT has more juice than the FXT engine.

John

kens

Don't forget the effects of gearing however. 0-60 times are also very much about 1st and 2nd gear ratios. IIRC, the FXT is geared lower than the GT.

Ken

ateixeira

Ken: H6 only, I believe. But the funny thing is that the models in Vegas we tested all had that warning light on. Not sure if the tires were aired down for the off road section, or what.

-juice

rob999

I think the primary difference in the GT vs Outback is the axle gearing. Someone posted these a while back. IIRC the GT has 4.11 gearing while the OB has a lower ratio.

stickguy

regardless of which number is true, the turbo is a fast car. For normal use, the diff. between 6.4 and 6.9 (or 5.5-6.0, etc). isn't really significant, especially if you aren't running it at the strip.

Makes you appreciate how good you have it now though if you can look at 7.0 for a mid-size AWD station wagon and have a caniption that it is "too slow".

ateixeira

Yeah, *chuckle*.

When I drove the Forester XT, I felt like I could pass anyone at any time, you just ease into the throttle. Pass at will. Really it has more power than anyone can reasonbly justify. It'll outrun most sports cars!

-juice

kens

Yes, but don't forget the GT gets lower profile tires with a smaller circumference. IIRC, the net difference in effective gearing was relatively small.

What I'd like to know is if the ECU map between the two are any different.

Ken

andmoon

I am going to admit I can't 'reasonably justify' this craving for power but i think half to one second isn't much if it's 9 or 10 seconds but I feel the diff from a 6 second 0-60 and 5 second 0-60 is quite big. I want it all! 0-60 in 5 sec. 30mpg highway. low NVH and great handling, loaded for 28K. Best part is the GT is almost there.
It's like motorcycles...99% of the time I never even get close to using full power but that 1% or 0.1% when I do I love it and the rest of the time I love just knowing it's there.

Somebody tell me how to reasonably justify a new GT to my wife.
Don

mazdadriver650

Hey Kens. I have been doing some research on where to test drive and buy the Base Legacy 2.5i I think I want. I havent had a chance to get out of my office to test drive yet, but I have test drove the competition, Mazda 6 and Passat wagon. If the Legacy is 1/2 as good on paper in person Ill buy it. There is a lot of info on the NASIOC site about Carlsen, Stevens Creek, and the Santa Cruz Dealer. Do a search on there to find the info. There are some really crazy and funny stories about the Stevens Creek dealership. They have a horrible reputation based upon the info from that site. One post was from a guy who said they called him an idiot and an a**hole for not buying the car at their inflated prices. He obviously didn't buy a car there. He wrote letters to SOA and they werent very helpful either. Carlsen has a very good reputation according to posters at NASIOC as well as the Santa Cruz dealer. Carlsen is also supposed to have an excellent repair staff. I live a stones throw from Stevens Creek, but will pass on them. I'll try Carlsen first since I work close by. $1K over invoice for the GT sounds excellent as long as Destination Charge is not extra. CarsDirect has the GT listed at MSRP. 2.5i at $900 over invoice. When is yours supposed to be delivered?

ateixeira

I find that a little hard to believe, at least it had to have been provoked by something. Did he promise to buy there, they did all the work, then he walked to another dealer to save $10?

You don't get cursed just for not choosing to be a customer there.

Just remember, Nasioc is the same site where you have guys bragging about chirping the tires in 4th gear (yes 4th) with their heavily modified cars and then complaining that Subaru won't repair their tranny when it's shredded.

I take it with a grain of salt...

Don: not sure you can. Do you live at altitude? Turbos don't wheeze climbing steep hills. Safer passing if you live around lots of two-lanes. Stuff like that. Bigger brakes and better tires are safer. ;-)

-juice

kens

Yes, Stevens Creek does have a reputation. I've been to all three so I know first-hand what they are like.

Carlsen and Santa Cruz have both excellent sales and service staff. Actually, for a while, Santa Cruz had the edge, but I believe Carlsen has made an effort to up their service recently.

In any event, you can take you Subaru to any dealer for service.

My GT Ltd. Wagon is due in early July. Can't wait!

Ken

subaru_team

that your friend did not find our staff very helpful. I really hate hearing stuff like that. Possibly it was a situation where we were not permitted to intercede? Because of all of the fair trade laws, we are a bit limited on how much we can get involved with a retail sales transaction. That being said, we often are doing things on our side that might not be apparent to the retail customer. Whenever we are made aware of a problem at a dealership, we notify folks throughout the organization to try to get a resolution. I know that Stevens Creek has come a long way based on the feedback we received from customers and we've seen a real commitment to improvement. Maybe check it out for yourself?

Anyway - if you do have a problem yourself, please let us know. We can always try!

Patti

mazdadriver650

Hi Patti. Its great to see that SOA is watching this board and posting. I have only visited a few of the other boards here at Edmunds, but I doubt Ford and GM have rep's posting on those sites. You are exactly right, I should try them for myself. The info I was detailing was not actually from a friend but from research I had done on NASIOC about local dealers. I think most of the posts were around the time the WRX came out and I think a lot of potential customers were frustrated by mark-ups and availabilty of the vehicles when they first rolled out, that may have something to do with all the negative feedback for that dealer. One thing we all need to keep in mind is that the sales people at the dealers are trying to make a living in a very competitive business. This does not excuse them from being dishonest, not knowing their product, etc. I am an insurance agent and I know the frustration of people who waste my time, but that is part of the job. Sorry to rant. Thanks for the feedback Patti.

salbaby1972

It is a shame when you know more than the sales person when checking out a car. The sales staff represent the product and the company. I know they are trying to make a living, but I feel most sales staff really do not know their products. They sell cars for a living and I don't, for sure they should at least know the brochure and website.

An easy and free training tool can be having them READ this forum every morning. Then cut Bob and Juice a check for their great insight and research.

ateixeira

Sure, send the check to....

;-)

I think the thing is to us it's a hobby, to them it's a job.

-juice

100k

I just drove a 2005 Legacy sedan GT Limited with MT for the first time. What a feeling! I've been bothering the salesmen over there for about three years (Impreza wagon, 2003 Legacy GT, Forester and WRX test drives over the years) and this car is definitely the real deal. Smooth, quiet, comfortable and all the power you need at the ready. The sticker was just over $30k with the spoiler and amp/sub added.

I drove it in a downpour and the thing drove like it was on rails (to quote your girlfriend's favorite movie). No turbo lag, smooth shifting/gearing and a real driver's feel. A few downsides were the steering wheel (tried to tilt it up when it was already all the way up), the cheapy sliding compartment/armrest thing, and the fact that I got about a quart of water in my lap when I opened the door to get out. I can live with all of those.

The disappointing part of the trip was realizing that my dealer is already putting the brakes on discounting the price too much. I guess demand is building.

bat1161

That's it! No more fantastic reviews of the 05's! If this keeps up I'm going to want to buy one now, instead of in 6-7 months, in which case I will be living in it rather than at home:-). Here's hoping time flies!

Mark

ateixeira

Yeah you guys are killing me! LOL

Just kidding...

-juice

salbaby1972

I want an 05 subie now too, but my wife will kill me! I gotta wait 12 months or so, I hope the IMBA membership will save me then.

sebberry

Ok, So I am looking at the 2005 Outback XT. I need some help with figuring out how much I can bring the dealer down on the new one, and what I can expect for my trade. (These prices in CDN dollars)

MSRP of the Outback XT: $44,395
Destination: $995
Documentation fee: $120
Air excise tax: $100
Tire and battery levy: $200
Total cost: $45,810
Total GST/PST taxes paid: $6642.45
Total after tax: $52,452 (Ouch!)

My trade: 2003 Outback H63.0 with leather and sunroofs, $39,400 Kms, new tires, almost mint condigion.
Assessed trade value: $29,000

They said in order to give me a good price on my trade, they would have to charge a higher retail price on the XT.

Now, based on US markups at about 8.5%, I estimate that my dealer is buying this car for about $41,000, making about $3774 on that car. I figure if they sell my trade in for $33,000, they are making about $7700 on my whole transaction.

I plan on financing the balance after my trade, (about $19,000 at 5.5% for 60 months).

So far, I cannot afford their current offer. What suggestions do you have for a successful rebuttal?

Thank you and I patiently await your responses.

pon1

Move to Alberta and avoid the PST, or to the US where you can buy a base model XT at or close to invoice with little or no tax.

Seriously, I think you are right on the money with your invoice calculation. I also wonder who is going to give the dealer 33K in cash without finance deals for a used H6 (outgoing model)...but that is their problem/risk.

Consider selling the H6 privately and offer somewhere around 42, plus the other charges for the XT. May have to wait till they realise that few people other than the really committed will pay mid 40s for an Outback, and prices soften and incentives are introduced. Right now it is a hot car.

Try another dealer and agree a price in cash first before mentioning the trade, dont even acknowledge the existence of the H6 until you have figured out how low they will go for cash. I took my wife's 95 golf to all test drives instead of my forester to help confuse them.

Good luck, JP

rsholland

Already a recall!

http://www.media.subaru.com/

Bob

bblacha

That's a good sign - their Quality Control is active and prompt - so maybe most bugs will get shaken out in a few months and we won't have to wait for the next model year for a quality car.

Just trying to rationalize to myself getting the 1.0 version...

goneskiian

Whew! Glad it's only the Legacy Sedan and Outback Sedan! My new Wagon is OK. ;-)

So far...

-Ian

c_hunter

the fact that I got about a quart of water in my lap when I opened the door to get out.

So, this seems like a recurring theme..... wonder where the water is coming from??

Craig

njswamplands

>>>
wonder where the water is coming from??
<<<

the sky?

beanboy

Anybody see the latest ads showing a 0-60 time of 5.9 seconds for the Outback XT with manual transmission? Pretty impressive...

I'm back to 50/50 on a Forester XT versus Legacy GT...

-B

subewannabe

FWIW, I cant think of a single practical application for shaving a half second off 0 to 60 times. However, if you want some sense of where you might appreciate the characteristics of the Legacy GT, read Paul Hansens reviews at apex.com or on the nabisco boards. With a lowered CG, lower COF, ground effects trim and well-matched suspension components and rubber, that car will perform better than most 'sporty' cars costing $15K more between 60 and the limits of your driving record/insurance premium.

mark

kens

Wow, a recall already. I agree that the positive way of looking at this is that Subaru is keeping a close watch on the quality of the new Legacy. In fact, the press release mentions that the recall is due to the fact that the airbags don't meet Fuji's own standards.

I'm sure people at SOA had a hard choice to make given that the 05 Legacys just started to hit showfloors.

Ken

max751

OK, it's dumb question time. Is there a special set of rules on how to measure trunk space?

I looked in the trunk of an 05 Legacy 2.5i sedan. It's speced as 11.4 cu ft, but it looked a LOT bigger than another trunk speced at 10.7. So I did some simple measurements.

Here are the measurements I got. The distance from the front of the trunk (not counting the little extra for the pass-through) to the back came to 40". Side to side between the wheel wells is 43". (That leaves some space off to the side both in front of and behind the wheel wells.) The height from the floor to the heavy wire is 17". Multiplying that out comes to a lot more than 11.4 cu ft.

I realize the rear seats slope back a bit, and there are a few items that stick down from the top of the trunk near the front, but those things aren't going to reduce that size by 5 cu ft. In fact I doubt they would even offset the extra volume available to the front and rear of the wheel wells.

Are there special rules to be followed or can't I measure or ??

ntk1

Yes - the 2 page advert is on pages 30 and 31 of the July issue of R+T.

ntk1

I understand you point, however in my past experience of owning and driving many performance cars, I have found that the 0-60 time is still the best on-paper indicator of how lively the car actually feels on the road.

rob_m

>>>
wonder where the water is coming from??

the sky? <<<

lol!

shizumaat

I got my dealer, Summit Subaru in Trail BC, to sell me an Outback XT for 42k, total cost (plus tax)... You could use that as ammunition with your dealer...

Cheers

rsholland

I agree that it's great to see SOA react so quickly. It's just a shame to have this mar the model launch.

Bob

c_hunter

They may figure out the largest "box" shape that could fit in there, which would tell the usable volume. That's my guess anyhow.

You could certainly get the max volume by stuffing the trunk with marbles and then doing a count, but that's probably not a useful measure of volume .... unless you're a bulk marble salesman of course.

Craig

ntk1

Craig
I'm not sure the marble method would give you a true max volume as you would have to make assumptions about contact points between the marbles and there may be small voids not filled. The only valid method would be to fill it with water and measure how much goes in !!
(I'm not sure we are being of much help to the man here though)
Pete

c_hunter

Agreed -- I used to teach Calculus and the ins and outs of approximate integration are near and dear to my heart! Either way, you're right, we are not being real helpful!

edit: BTW, there is a formula somewhere where you can correct for measuring volume with discrete spheres. If the spheres are small enough relative to the volume, the error is very manageable. (I run numerical simulations, and can think about this stuff for hours on end....)

Craig

subaru_team

involved and you're right. It is frustrating. But, better to find it, fix it and move on than not have the level of quality that we want (you and SOA). I believe that the testing and sorting the problem out has contributed to the issue at the plant.

It's interesting in a way. The bags meet fed. spec., but the issue was with how they were folded. The speed of deployment is slower than what we want. They are not just re-folding them. We are replacing the whole assembly.

We have the list of purchasers and we'll be working to make it up to them. I am sorry I couldn't talk about it sooner and that the problem happened. I also appreciate how positive you folks are about recognizing why we are taking this path vs. waiting. It probably would have been better for sales if we delayed talking about it until the launch was complete - but it's just not the way we want to do business. And that makes me proud to work for this company.

More info. to come as soon as we've ironed out the details.......Thanks folks.

Patti

bat1161

Patti-
Now I see what you meant Thurs. night about "wait and see". I'm happy that SOA is being proactive, instead of reactive on this. And I di notice the press release noted that the quality was not up to Fuji standards. Score one for Subaru!

Mark

salbaby1972

You may have to use the industry de facto standard of golf bags. IIRC, the BMW 740i can hold 4 golf bags, as could the Acura TL. Maybe someone with a 05 Legacy sedan can tell you how many golf bags they can fit in the trunk.

Seems silly huh, but the trunck looks huge.

rsholland

What Mark said, and Patti, thanks for the follow-up, and explanation.

Bob