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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,933
    You still did not address the fact that although you and some others want all the latest gizmos most don't want to pay for them.

    You can already hear the moans about cost, as an example of how costs have risen over the years and will keep rising.Im 1986 I bought what was then the top of the line Toyota Corolla, An LE liftback.

     The out the door price including all taxes and destination charges was less that $12000CDN The MSRP on the top line Corolla today is $24000CDN not including taxes. Now granted all costs labour and materials have grown over the years but the added bells and whistles have also added to the overall cost.(incidently the MSRP on a Legacy L wagon is about 3 grandCDN more)
     
     A small majority of people have expressed an interest in these Gizmos like NAV and GPS and HID lights, and if Subaru give in and add them across the board the vast majority of people like juice and myself will end up paying for something we do not want, to satisfy the whim of a few. I have no problem with offering it as an option, but to have it installed in all models with the associated increase in cost forget it.

     Cheers Pat.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "A small majority of people have expressed an interest in these Gizmos like NAV and GPS and HID lights, and if Subaru give in and add them across the board the vast majority of people like juice and myself will end up paying for something we do not want, to satisfy the whim of a few."

    Um, yea, its called an "OPTION". Unknown in the Honda vocabulary, but common in the dictionary of every other automaker. Toyota currently sells NAV as an option on Camry SEs and XLEs (V6s only), and those who want it, typically wait for it, as its not a standard configuration. Actually, even Honda's only factory option on Accords, TSXs, TLs, etc... is the NAV. Why do you assume its all or nothing for Subaru? Cant we have NAV as an option? Wouldnt that keep you and other no-NAVers happy, while simultaneously keeping those who want NAV in the Subaru family?

    ~alpha
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,933
    Actually the drift I get from a lot of the posts in Edmunds people want them alright but they do not want to pay extra. The sentiment is if you can get this stuff on cars costing less than 20K why isn't Subaru icluding them in the price of the new Legacy,

      Cheers Pat.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Fair enough, but thats not the drift I get at all. Im thinking more like "If its the latest technology available, and its on cars that are costing about $20,000, then why is Subaru not offering it AT ALL on the "NEW" Legacy whose MsRP runs from approx $22500 to $33000 USD".

    ~alpha
  • npaladin2000npaladin2000 Posts: 593
    I hate NAV myself, but the point is that it's available in some "lower end" non premium cars, and some people look for that as a sign of "market scale." Same with HIDs...they appeal to the sport/tuner crowd that would grab something like a GT or a WRX.

    And if you did a lot of driving at night and actually HAD Xenon lights in your Miata, you'd be singing a different tune about HIDs. They make a rather large visibility difference. And the thing is, if they're properly leveled, the HIDs in other cars should NOT be blinding you (Also, please don't look directly into them, same as regular headlights. The eye is naturally drawn to it, but you must resist..hehe).
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    I know from experience that they can be helpful. Last fall, while attending a high school reunion, I got lost trying to find one of my old high school buddies house, who was hosting a brunch. Not only did I get lost, but so did another old high school friend who was right behind me. As it turned out his Lexus had a navigation system. All he did was punch in the address into the NAV unit, and we were at our destination within 5 minutes.

    I can also remember a few years ago my daughter was driving through Baltimore for the first time and got lost in a bad section of the city at night. She was terrified, and we had to direct her out of there via her cell phone. A NAV system would have been very helpful, if she had one.

    Bob
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    I echo what Pat said previously. The HID and NAV are nice features, but it seems like people expect Subaru to give this away. These can be added as an option later in the model run. Projector Beams and available OnStar are just as effective for now.

    Look if the car compares as well in the US magazines as it seems to have been received in Japan, Australia, and Germany alot of this moaning will be moot.

    If you feel the new Mazda 6 wagon is equal or better for the price buy it. If you feel the A4/S4, or BMW 325 Wagon, or G35X or TL are much superior at a "slightly elevated price" buy them. If you feel the Camry/Accord features, minus the AWD is perfect for you buy those.

    I will stay loyal to the Legacy. It's improved every year since I bought mine GT Wagon in 99.
  • bigelmbigelm Posts: 995
    Bottom line is the majority who want it, will pay for it. Those that don't should be looking into buying a map then.
    When ABS was introduced, it was hard to accept. When airbags were introduced, it was hard to adjust. When CD Changers were included, it was hard to buy... regardless, it was hard to consider as a much wanted/needed 'gizmo'.

    In any event, NAV and HID's should be an option however you slice it? The idea of it being an option says, those that want it WILL pay for it; PERIOD!!!!
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Posts: 42
    Those of us who said that we are looking at the G35x are willing to pay $36K+....that is substantially more than the Legacy. But then again the G35x is a much larger car. Those who interpret that we are not willing to pay for the options are just doing that--interpreting but not buying for us. I will pay for the options IF SOA makes them available.

    Look it is not like they have to build a new car---THEY ALREADY BUILD IT AND SELL IT AND HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR A WHILE!!!!

    Would I pay $36K for a Legacy? H.NO! Would I pay something less than the A4/A6? H.Yeah! How much? I don't know...let SOA figure that out. BTW, I have been in and out of SOA products since 1978. I agree with several of you...SOA cars have improved every turn and every generation....don't stop now!

    Yes...several of you are right as well when you say that you don't want to pay for options others want. I don't want you to pay for my options. I suspect that the 3x5 or 4x6 cover above the controls for the air is a location for the NAV or other display...check out the pictures and the brochure on the subaru.de site...and therefore there is no engineering to be performed. Let those who want the "gizmos" have them without spilling the costs to others.

    I think alpha01 has nailed it on the head!
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    I echo what Pat said previously. The HID and NAV are nice features, but it seems like people expect Subaru to give this away. These can be added as an option later in the model run. Projector Beams and available OnStar are just as effective for now.

    Look if the car compares as well in the US magazines as it seems to have been received in Japan, Australia, and Germany alot of this moaning will be moot.

    If you feel the new Mazda 6 wagon is equal or better for the price buy it. If you feel the A4/S4, or BMW 325 Wagon, or G35X or TL are much superior at a "slightly elevated price" buy them. If you feel the Camry/Accord features, minus the AWD is perfect for you buy those.

    I will stay loyal to the Legacy. It's improved every year since I bought mine GT Wagon in 99.
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    Ever been in an unfamiliar city trying to navigate your way around town with a map in one hand and a steering wheel in another? The stress and confusion brought on by unfamiliar streets and traffic patterns quickly wipes out any memory that I have of map directions.

    I want to concentrate on the streets and the car making an illegal left turn in front of and about to hit me, not a jumbo fold-out paper map. I want to drive down the street and have the display and voice prompts tell me when to turn, when to get off the freeway, and in the case of the Subaru system, tell me how many kilometers I have to go before I run out of gas. If I want my car to treat me like an idiot, I will pay for it as it is certainly a safety feature.

    Make it standard? Maybe on the higher-levels, but at least make it an option. It may not be the deal breaker for some, but for many it is. Especially when much cheaper cars offer it.

    Also, there is some resale value that a Navigation system would offer. With it becomng standard on many vehicles, it could make it harder to sell the car 5 years down the road. Just like power windows, ABS, CD changers and more.

    So, why is it that some people refuse to pay $36kUS for a fully loaded Legacy? it certainly would hold it's own (features and performance) against many european models, and offer better styling than many other domestics and imports. It it because it is a Subaru and not an Infiniti, BMW, Audi? Heck, it offers better quality and more simplistic engineering than most Euro cars, not to mention more affordable maintenance and parts.

    Feature for feature, it would still be a great value, even if it is $36k for a Legacy.

    PS. Even with properly aligned HID's, they are rather annoying in the rear-view as the car behind travels over dips and bumps in the road. I wouldn't want to subject anyone to that torture.

    Offering the customer the choice is the only way to more sales. You wany HID's, I don't. I want Navi, you don't. The only we will both be happy (or Subaru owners at all) is if we cah chose those options.

    Just my .02
  • ntk1ntk1 Posts: 57
    Received my June issue of R&T and Motor trend last night, no reviews of the 05 Legacy (Not even a mention in passing) - Dissapointing, they must have had some early units to test
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    Price. Subaru feels they have to keep the Legacy GT under $30K, like they had to keep the WRX under $25K.

    Subaru had this problem with the Outback and VDC models, in that they charged over $30K for them, then had to give significant incentives due to these cars not selling.

    If the Legacy GTs take off sales wise, there might be a very good chance that things like Nav and HIDs might be brought in as options durring the refreshening period in a couple of years.

    This happened with the WRX, when there were complaints of no sun-roof. With the 2004 refreshening, a premium package was added. Who is to say that a premium package in a year or two will not be added with xenon headlights and Nav?

    I am curious to see how the vehicle does in the next year (very curious to hear the reviews, but expect them to be glowing).

    In terms of the G35 vs. the Legacy, the G35 weighs more, but the interior and trunk might be very similiar. Unfortunately, I do not have the specifications of the new Legacy vs. the G35. The Legacy is supposed to weigh around 3200 lbs.and the G35 RWD manual weighing 3400 lbs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think NAV is a distraction, actually. Maybe if it can give voice commands, but I'm sure it takes your eyes and attention off the road.

    Navi system in the 05 Acura RL streams real-time traffic data of major highways

    I don't buy it, the real-time ski conditions report at Sky Liberty said they had 26" of packed powder while it was pouring rain. I was there, at the ski resort, and that's what they were claiming.

    Garbage in, garbage out. Data is key, we agree, but who will truly give reliable data?

    By the time the traffic info gets to you, it's no longer useful, you're already stuck in that traffic. I think it's very optimistic to think otherwise.

    A level HID light on a Navigator still points directly in my eyes. Not all vehicles have headlights at the same level, is my point.

    Options, sure, just don't build-in this cost for people that don't want it. When it's a safety feature, that's different. When it's a gizmo/toy that I'm not likely to use, it's just price padding.

    I'll go one step further and say these could be accessories, rather than options, sold via SPT at dealers. Heck, just get that Garmin Palm, it's portable, color, and gives voice commands. That works for multiple cars, and it's cheap, $400 or so IIRC.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Fitz has a VDC on clearance for $26k and change.

    Stability control is great, but Subaru packaged it with a gizmo/toy (the Mac stereo). When it was new they claimed it was some $4000 in high-end stereo hardware.

    THAT was their mistake! People want VDC, but not coupled up to a nice but hyper-expensive stereo. $33k for a car that was inexpensive and built to stay that way? How did it sell? Not so good, even after $7k in discounts. Ouch.

    So my position is make the safety stuff standard, the goodies should be options, not grouped together. That strategy failed miserably, the VDC is proof.

    -juice
  • bigelmbigelm Posts: 995
    Majority of NAV's come with voice direction prompts.

    Again, to each their own. That's why options are OPTIONS!!!

    The G35 is larger than the Legacy with more luxo features, hence the weight.

    I know this is a Subaru forum, but please, kill the biggetry.. :-p
  • npaladin2000npaladin2000 Posts: 593
    "A level HID light on a Navigator still points directly in my eyes. Not all vehicles have headlights at the same level, is my point."

    They're not supposed to be level, they're supposed to point DOWN. If they're in your eyes, you're either staring straight into them intentionally, or they're not set properly on the Navigator (which is likely, I have to admit...SUV owners seem to go out of their way to be annoying sometimes. ;) )
  • hondafriekhondafriek Ottawa CanadaPosts: 2,933
    If you go back over all the posts since the new legacy was just a dream you will see that most people will not pay 36KUSD not some as you say. As a matter of fact most people were highly insistant that the price stay below 30KUSD. As Kevin points out in post# 1228 When Subaru introduced the H6 and VDC at over 30KUSD they couldn't give them away.

     They had to be heavily discounted to move them. You can turn it upside down and inside out but the bottom line is the upper ceiling most people are willing to pay for a Suburu is 30KUSD and that is the demographic that Subaru will cater to in order to stay competetive. The luxury items like NAV. and GPS are all ad'equately addressed in the aftermarket.

      Cheers Pat.
  • kevin111kevin111 Posts: 991
    The G35 is not that big on the inside. Thought the '05 Legacy will be a little roomier than the '04. Otherwise, the '04 Legacy is close in size to the interior of the G35.

    '04 Legacy:

    Interior
    Front Head Room: 38.1 in.
    Front Leg Room: 43.3 in.
    Rear Head Room: 36.6 in.
    Rear Leg Room: 34.2 in.
    Luggage Capacity: 12.4 cu. ft.
    Maximum Seating: 5

    G35:
    Interior
    Front Head Room: 40.1 in.
    Front Leg Room: 43.9 in.
    Rear Head Room: 37.9 in.
    Rear Leg Room: 33.6 in.
    Luggage Capacity: 14.8 cu. ft.
    Maximum Seating: 5
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,035
    "Garbage in, garbage out. Data is key, we agree, but who will truly give reliable data?

    By the time the traffic info gets to you, it's no longer useful, you're already stuck in that traffic. I think it's very optimistic to think otherwise."

    juice - the new tunnel through Boston - http://www.bigdig.com - has real time traffic information using sensors and cameras that allow the state to dispatch tow trucks and the such. In the future, it is supposed to be able to give info on variable message boards. I certainily hope they share the info with the media. In addition, this company - http://www.mobilitytechnologies.com/ - just installed their system in greater Boston that measures vehicle speed and volume and translates into a graphical view for TV stations willing to pay. Looks like they have the capability of eventually integrating with NAV's.

    As you said, as long as the data is timely and valid it's useful.
  • jb_shinjb_shin Posts: 357
    FWIW, there was a pilot program that ran in a few areas, and I believe it may have been modeled after the European systems. In Europe, Germany in particular, there are series of poles on the side of autobahn every 50 meters or so that counts the number of cars passing by and transmits to some sort of collection module/center which then broadcasts it over the radio. There is an optional module that works in conjunction with the NAV computer to display the result (higher count, slower speed) and the driver can go around it. While it is not perfect, it works quite well and is being used widely in Europe.

    Also, I am not sure that NAV is that much of a distraction. While cell phone without hands free (not headsets, but total hands free by way of integration with the car, voice activation, etc) is illegal in many parts of Europe, NAV is not. I used it for 3 years in Germany and have not heard of NAV causing problems on autobahn where some sections are without speed limit. Indeed, voice guidance works very well.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    So then they point down into my eyes. ;-)

    Ever driven a Miata?

    What we need are standard heights for headlights. Trucks are allowed to mount them way too high. Then the HIDs blind you completely.

    OTOH, I've had considerate UPS drivers pull directly behind me and actually turn their headlights OFF. Very thoughtful.

    G35 really has less rear legroom? Didn't seem like it.

    rob: sounds great in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it. My guess is you'll have 30-60 minute old mis-information in practice.

    Automated systems have more potential than high school interns typing in data from a traffic report, I'll admit.

    Pat nailed it, though, there is a $30k psycological barrier with Subies. Face it, all of 3 people paid more than that for a Subie so far. SVX didn't sell. VDC didn't, either, though the LL Bean sold much better.

    If we did see a HID option and a NAV option, let's be honest, where would it show up? You really think they'd offer those on the base Legacy GT?

    Fat chance! Look at Subaru's track record. They would be expensive options on the VDC model only. Right now that's $33,395 for a 2005, plus freight, plus HID and NAV and you're talking...

    $35,595

    That's my best guess. Still want it? Honestly?

    I bet 6 people would pay that in the entire USA.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    Mazda offers a NAV system on the their Impreza-level 3 model. If Mazda can do it so can Subaru. Also, the more popular NAV systems get, the prices will drop. It may be a $2K option now, but I bet in a few years it will drop to ~ $1K, which is about most automatic trannys costs. If the price drops as I predict, NAV systems will explode on to the marketplace.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sorry I'm resorting to buzzwords, but here goes...

    It would take a Paradigm Shift, an earth-shaking revolution, a blunt surprise hostile takeover, at SoA, for them to offer these things as stand-alone options.

    Let's face it, Subaru is the KING of packaging. To this day you have to spend $33k plus to get a basic safety feature like stability control, which the Ford Focus offers at about 1/3rd the price.

    With that in mind, HIDs and NAV will cost you $36 grand. You buying?

    Change the culture first, sure, then offer those. Let's see the moonroof become a stand-alone option first. Leather, too.

    -juice
  • norrmanndonorrmanndo Posts: 81
    Isn't Subaru offering anything bigger than 2.5 liter 165 HP on the outback or legacy? My wife has been wanting a Subaru, but when I priced them a few years ago I couldn't get one for a good price with an engine that satisfied me. Now it looks like the more powerful engines have been dropped all together. I don't like the looks of the forester (it seems to have a 2.5 turbo offered). 165 HP seens low for 3,300 pounds.
  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    Since FHI offers Nav as an option in JDM, clearly they know how to put in in the car. I am inclined to think that we are overlooking why the USDM release is significantly different from the JDM and NZ turbos, and why there is no turbo in the European and Oz release thus far: EPA and CAFE.
       Suburu faces stiff penalties when they exceed 2.0L in Europe and many Pacific rim countries, which adds to the cost of the vehicle but doesnt add value. Thus, they created a 2.0L turbocharged engine capable of generating 276 HP! But I can guarantee that engine wouldnt come close to passing NA ( US/CA) emission standards.
       Thus we in US now have a 2.5L engine which SoA squeezes 300HP out of in the STi, 250 in the new Legacy Gt and 237 in the FXT ( on paper.....easy there FXT owners ;-)), with enough torque to pin you to the seat...a performance goodie that is far more important in the US car culture than in Europe or the Pacific. To substitute this new engine (and beefed up trannies to deal with all that yummy torque) while maintaining their competetive position in the market, SoA had to decide what they could let go of that MOST US/CA buyers dont want in favor of the performance the market demanded. Yup....there went the MacIntosh, the HID and the NAV. You want them as options in the 06 release: talk up the new Legacy and Outback, get all your friends to buy them, build up a cushion of profitability so that SoA can risk, and its no small risk from a marketing standpoint, selling cars that cost $36K. Mark
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,035
    "rob: sounds great in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it. My guess is you'll have 30-60 minute old mis-information in practice."

    The mobilitysystems setup has poles about 1/4 mile on the interstate with scanners, solar panels, and wireless transmitters. The information is sent to a database which updates pretty quickly for TV and radio reports. The problem there is that TV and radio only report every few minutes. I think if it were integrated with NAV systems and variable message boards, you'd get the information much quicker.

    It's all about the willingness to spend money.
  • rob999rob999 Posts: 233
    The 2.5 na (165 hp) is the base engine / base models.
    2.5 turbo and 3.0 H6 are available in the Limited and Bean models, respectively
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    How much are those features on Subies sold in other markets such as Japan and Europe? If Subaru can market them there, why not here?

    As to "Am I buying?" Not yet, but I might if it were offered in a Forester or Impreza.

    If Subaru wants to be perceived as a "premium" brand, those items are almost required to at least be "available" to those who want them, and who can afford them.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I like the idea, rob, but at least locally they've invested very little on our beltway. I'd love to see that change.

    Bob: note I said at SoA! FHI makes the stuff but it's SoA that packages them.

    SoA has to get over the idea that expensive and new features have to be grouped together. It's like there is an evil empire that says "hmm, NAV and HIDs are popular, let's group it with these overpriced luxury features (leather, moonroof, MacIntosh) to milk our customers for every last penny they own".

    Yeah, BOTH of them.

    I won't even open the "premium" can o' worms! ;-)

    -juice
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