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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Didn't drive at night at all, so can't comment on the lighting.

    Brakes were fine on the track, like anchors, real good. The same cars were lapped twice by 14 people in each group, IIRC, with no fade.

    Saw that Autoweek article, they may consider a different state of tune a different "engine", perhaps?

    I'm a fan of stability control and I think Subaru needs to spread the love. It's no longer a "premium feature", the Focus and the Scion xB have it, the latter standard.

    VDC is one of the better ones, perhaps even the best. 100% power to any given wheel, proactive, rear bias, what's not to like?

    -juice
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,766
    A couple of things I am surprised not to find on any newly redesigned car these days - auto UP (as well as down) windows

    Auto up is one of those things that just scares corporate lawyers and liability insurers.
  • brady_bunchbrady_bunch Posts: 21
    zman,
      I agree that Subaru's engineers have outdone themselves on this latest Legacy but I wouldn't give them any undue credit. That "slot" is where the navigation system's computer would go if it were available. The other handy "sunglasses" slot above the A/C and stereo controls is where the display would go. If you ever get a dealer installed navigation system (assuming one eventually becomes available), it would take up those two spaces. If it never becomes available, you're right... very handy for the manual. :)
  • brady_bunchbrady_bunch Posts: 21
    Hey, guys,
      I think my official "lurker" status is gone. I've been lurking in this forum since October or November of last year and enjoying all the good discussions. Now I have some questions I hope someone can help out with. Allow me to apologize up front for the length of this one but let me to set the stage for my questions:

    Late last year I was giving a serious look at the new WRX (2004 model with restyled headlights) and happened to come across some information about a new Legacy that would have the same engine as the WRX STI. It seemed pretty promising so I put off my WRX purchase to wait for this new Legacy.

    While waiting, I built several spreadsheets comparing the virtues and vices (price, gas mileage, interior room, horsepower, torque, etc) of several cars: the WRX, Infiniti G35, Lexus IS300, Acura TL, Mazda 6 and RX-8, BMW 330i, Audi A4 and S4, and (for grins) the Jaguar XK8 convertible. Since then I have narrowed the field down to the G35 (sedan, 6MT, RWD) and the Legacy GT Limited.

    Today I went to my local San Antonio Subaru dealership and took a look at the few 2005 models they got off the truck this morning: an Outback LL Bean and a Legacy 2.5i sedan. I looked at the sedan and had one word: wow. I looked at the LL Bean and the dealer told me to stop smiling or he would have to sell it to me. :)

    Now I have one choice (Legacy) but many questions. I'll put them in my next post. Thanks for providing such great info in the forum!
  • brady_bunchbrady_bunch Posts: 21
    OK... I looked at the LL Bean and was VERY impressed by the taupe leather interior and wood trim. I have not seen anything quite that stylish and appealing in any car I have looked at in the past year.

    Currently, I have a 94 Mazda Miata M-Edition that has a tan interior and some woodgrain accents. The LL Bean leather was lighter as were the wood accents. Very contemporary... did I mention appealing? :)

    Question #1: does anyone know for certain if that same woodgrain is available in the Legacy GT Limited with the taupe leather or is it LL Bean only? The dealer wasn't 100% sure either way. The brochure he had (the same one Control Freak scanned into www.legacysti.com) noted on page 22 "Titanium Metallic interior trim with woodgrain-patterned accents" (footnote #2 at the very bottom). I am guessing yes.

    Question #2: does anyone know for sure when the GTs are going to be at the dealerships? The guy I spoke with locally indicated some time in mid to late June. If they had had a GT Limited in Atlantic Blue Pearl with an interior the same as that LL Bean's, I would have probably been buying a car today. :)
  • brady_bunchbrady_bunch Posts: 21
    Comment: has anyone taken note of the cars that Edmunds has chosen as the default "comparison cars" for the GT? Audi A4, Infiniti G35, Lexus IS300, and Saab 9-3? I find that rather interesting. Maybe it's just me.

    Question: Given that the G35 was one of my two finalists in my new car search and given that I want to make sure I am getting the right car (I would like to keep my car for 10+ years), I did the full "print summary" comparison between the GT Limited and the G35.

    To the G35, I added the premium package (Includes Bose premium 200-watt, 7-speaker audio system with RDS, AM/FM cassette and Nd woofer, power tilt/slide glass sunroof with one-touch open/close and pinch protection, dual climate control with rear vents (in the back of the center console arm rest) and interior air filter, driver's seat memory with entry/exit assist, 4-way power adjustable passenger seat, reclining rear seats with adjustable outboard head restraints, auto on/off headlights, Homelink Universal Transceiver, auto-dimming rearview mirror, all power windows one-touch up/down and full-size spare tire with matching alloy wheel.) I also added the aero body kit and sunroof to arrive at a $37,500 MSRP. I loaded up the GT and came up with $30,500. I fail to see anything substantial in the G35 that warrants a $7000 premium as far as significant deal-breaker kinds of items. Yes, the G35 has stability control, it has a full size spare, reclining rear seats, the Infiniti name, auto up/down windows, etc but am I missing anything huge? Yes, I realize the G35 6MT is RWD and not AWD but that is not a huge thing in my book. The G35 has performance tires on it which I will probably add to the GT ASAP which would cost a bit.

    Yes, the GT gives up 10 HP to the G35 and maybe a tenth of a second or two but I'm not Joe Ricer who needs a WRX STI. I want a nice, upscale car with some oomph that I can use to haul my family around on not too long trips. Right now we have to take my wife's minivan everywhere because my other car is a Miata. I personally don't mind putting the kids in the trunk but we get odd stares at the mall when we let them out. (I'm just kidding... don't call CPS on me) :)

    Any thoughts or observations would be appreciated.
  • breldbreld Posts: 1,283
    I got the brochures the other day and, as you pointed out, it does state that the GT Limited with the Taupe interior will have the wood-grain accents. Like you, I would assume that will be the same as on the Outback.

    That wood trim is very nice. The matte finish is much classier than the shiny look of the current Outbacks (and that of many other cars these days). The new interior, IMHO, is so much improved as to put it at the same level as Audis and Acura, not to mention VWs.

    As for the comparison to the G35, I think the Infiniti is a nice car. Being in Denver, I'd prefer the AWD, but since that is not available with the 6sp, I wouldn't consider it. It will be interesting to hear comparisons from people test driving once the turbo models are available. Despite the similar horsepower, I would expect the overall character of the turbo engine in the Legacy and the ubiquitous V6 in the G35 to be quite different.

    To me, the Legacy GT is a very affordable competitor to the previous gen S4. Same hp, turbo powered, awd, etc. But more room, better reliability. All for $30k or less. I'm lovin' it.

    2011 BMW 535xi - 2015 GTI - 2008 A3 - 2009 Ody

  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,432
    Must be small kids to fit in the trunk of a Miata.
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    Ah. I knew that the slot on the dash would be for a future display for the navigation system. I never even thought of the slot in the glove compartment being for the naviagtion computer. Regardless, I wouldn't be getting NAVI so it is still a cool spot to store the manual out of the way of everything else.

    Thanks for the clarification though.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Wa-hoo! I, along with my 49 yr. old padre, test drove a Regal Blue 2.5i last night, happily without the salesman accompanying us. As far as drives I've been on, this one was fairly extensive- nearly 15 miles.

    Overall, this is an extremely well executed vehicle, and I was very impressed.

    One of the things that stood out immediately was the comfort of the front seats- though they arent "sport seats", they definitely cradled the body. (The car we drove was still in plastic, it had actually not even been given a stock number yet, so I cannot comment on the quality of the fabric.)

    The steering wheel is small diameter, the center stack is well laid out and interesting to look at, and I greatly appreciated the trick trip computer, which I didnt realize was standard, but found to be a very nice feature.

    Braking felt solid, and the pedal reassuring, perhaps just a little spongy for the very first inch of travel, but overall very good. As expected, the car cornered fairly flatly, I pushed the envelope a bit on several off ramps, and was very happy (and amused!) with the car's responses. Given the handling, the ride was remarkable on some of Jersey's more daunting road irregularities and pockmarks.

    Finally, cruising yielded little to no wind noise, and the boxer engine was remarkably quiet at speed.

    Now, for some negatives.

    Juice, I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you that this vehicle will hit 60 in 8.5. In fact, Id bet it will need another second. While I do realize this was a very green car, and as such, I did not nail the accelerator, I did rev it from a stop up past 5000 RPM, and the vehicle does not step off like the 4 cylinder Accords or even our 02 4cyl Camry, which clocks slightly slower than the Accord. This was one aspect my dad also noticed, without me mentioning it first. The 2.5i certainly isnt lacking for power, but it doesnt accelerate as aggressively as I expected, or would like. Maybe using brake torquing techniques the mags will do 8.5, but not I.

    I was however, impressed with the transmission. I didnt find the "Sport" setting significantly beneficial, in fact, in passing, I thought it was a bit annoying- it REALLY holds the lower gear, even after you ease pressure on the accelerator, which causes a lugging for a few seconds. Otherwise, shifts are virtually undectable and mapping of the 4EAT is efficiently done. I do wonder, though, how much the MPG figures would improve with the 5 speed auto, what the cost to Subaru, and its consumers, really would have been had SoA/FHI used the extra ratio in these basic models.

    The rear seat IS smallish, but I suppose thats not a big deal since this car purports to compete more so wearing higher line/GT dress, with vehicles whose back seats are also small. That said, anyone expecting Altima/Accord/Camry room will not find it. They are well shaped though, and space is utilized efficiently.

    Some cheap details: I find the hood prop rod unnecessary, the donut spare is dinky, and I really wish the rear seat folded, especially given the sedan's diminutive (though adequate trunk).

    I'm pretty confident that my parents will be getting one once their IMBA membership hits the 6 month requirement for invoice pricing.. or whenever the dealer can come in at invoice.

    IMO, this new Subaru is the most competitive Legacy yet. For anyone looking at the Camcords, but might have an interest in AWD and not really needing a large backseat, this car is the way to go.

    ~alpha

    PS- Our test car stickered at $22,9xx. The only option was the auto-dimming rear view mirror.
  • bookemdanobookemdano Posts: 55
    It's a dead-giveaway that you like the car! (Ya gotta make the salesman think it's the great price he's giving you that sold the car!) :-)

    Regards,

    Dan.
  • legacy191legacy191 Posts: 29
    Went to the local Subie dealer in MPLS and looked at the 05' 2.5i sedan. Turbo won't arrive for about 2 weeks. To me the 05' seems tighter than the 99'GT we had a year ago. Since they didn't have a turbo,I didn't drive the car, but heres what I got out of it. If they decide to put NAV. in the car, watch out for increased attention from the state police just because of where it is installed. Since I didn't drive it and WE are also comparing it to a G35 with the Premium Pak. and body kit, for the tightness of the G35 I don't see the justification for the $6500 difference. But if this turbo doesn't drive as good as I think it should, I won't blink twice to buy the G35 over the Subie. But I have 2 weeks to wait till a turbo arrives at a Luther dealership in Minnesota..

    Tony T
  • legacy191legacy191 Posts: 29
    The legacy I looked at yesterday had Leather, sport shift, power driver seat, and 6cd in dash for about $26400. I'm hoping the turbo comes in at about $3000 more...

    Tony T
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You dont have to hope, here is the pricing on the Legacy:

    :)

    http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html#price

    The model you saw was the 2.5i Limited, by the way.

    ~alpha
  • grove4grove4 Posts: 95
    I wanted to let you all know my thoughts on this awesome car.I got the silver gt with black leather.I cant see how anyone could spend for anything else for 27,500.Thats what I paid totally loaded and no ext warranty.I also have a forester xt so I was expecting same power.The legacy is a 5sp.This thing fricken rips,it has power everywhere in the rpm range,doesnt seem to matter what gear you are in.I just cannot believe it is a 4cyl.I just cannot believe that.The car handles evenly with a wrx and I drove them back to back.I also drove a BMW 330i sport package.The BMW will be looking at this cars tail lights, believe me.Also you get all weather capability and a very quiet ride.What more could you want?I will comment more when i get more seat time.
  • chassolchassol Posts: 95
    grove4 - Where are you in the US?

    My dealer hasn't even seen the invoices for any GT Limited let alone the vehicle.

    Thanks,

    Chassol
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    Congrats on your new ride! Keep us posted, as I'm sure everyone here is dying to know what it's like to "live" with.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    All the '05 models and specs are now on the SOA website. Some interesting specs here on turning circles for various Subies:

    05 Legacy GT, sedan & wagon = 35.4'

    05 WRX, sedan & wagon = 35.4'

    05 STi = 37.4'

    05 Forester XT = 34.8'

    I'm surprised that the long-wheelbase Legacy has the same turning circle as the short-wheelbase WRX. Even more surprising is that the F-XT gas the smallest turning circle.

    Bob
  • kenskens Posts: 5,869
    First of all, welcome to the Crew! You'll find a lot of knowledgable people here. Be sure to explore some of the other topics as well.

    On to your questions.

    I don't believe wood grain is available in the GT or GT Ltd. Although it was a pre-production vehicle, the GT Ltd. I sat in at Detroit was wood-free.

    Here in the SF Bay Area, dealers are not getting GTs until the end of June.

    It is interesting that those vehicles come up in the comparisons with the GT. I guess Edmund's bought into Subaru's new positioning of the Legacy. However, I do feel that other car publications will compare it with a few more affordable models.

    The G35 is a very nice vehicle. For me, the biggest downside is that there is no wagon version in the US. The Legacy GT gives me almost everything that the G35 does but at a much lower price point. I don't know what G35s go for, but I would not expect the GT to sell for at or over MSRP several months into it's intro.

    In fact, I just placed an order with my local dealer for a Legacy GT Ltd. wagon. Their pricing from the get-go was $1000 over invoice. At first, I was a little taken back since Subarus typically go for $200-500 over invoice around here. However, considering it is a new model and that $1K is just about 3% of the total vehicle cost, I felt it was fair.

    Ken
  • iluvsubaru2iluvsubaru2 Posts: 56
    For What's It's Worth,
    The Bean is among the best handling vehicles I've driven. The 17 inch wheels, the more even front and rear default torque of VTD, and improvements in OB suspension create impressive handling. If one added VDC superb fair weather handling should carry over into rain, snow and ice.

    One item needs fixing though, and that's Bean's nasty "turbo lag". Punch the accelerator from a dead stop such as entering a freeway or making a left turn and it takes too long before the Bean moves. It's unsafe. In the Sportshift mode (1st gear) lag is cut in half but still too long. For no turbo lag off the line, you might want to look at a real turbo, Forester XT.
             
    Stability Control and AWD: for those of you who think AWD alone is protection on ice, be careful because it's going to hurt. AWD is little better than FWD with excellent snow tires. From my own experience, tires make the most difference on ice, though not much difference. AWD on the non-VTD AWD that Subaru uses in all MT/AT Foresters and most OBs doesn't much help for icy roads. On snow or mud at VERY slow speeds AWD helps. But on icy streets and highways at traffic speeds AWD alone doesn't count for much.
     
    Breaking traction is the problem. 4X zero traction is no better than 2X zero traction. Subaru's version of yaw control (lateral stability) and traction control (forward motion) is VDC. It works very well. But not all traction/stability controls are created equal.

    The criteria of an effective Stability/Traction Control System are fast and accurate detection of imminent loss of vehicle's intended forward and/or lateral motion AND the effectiveness of corrective action (ie does the system save your bacon?).

    Lexus's first traction control systems, to cite one example, were OK on wet pavement but did not react fast enough for icy roads to prevent loss of traction and stability.

    What makes Subaru's OB VDC so good is VTD coupled with VDC. VTD moves torque around faster (VTD has more even front/rear torque split at it's default setting vs rest of Subarus AT AWDs) and VDC makes sure lateral and linear traction don't break, and if one tosses in 2005's superb suspension system, the OB VDC is about as good as it gets.

    Jake
    PS: I won't be buying a 2005 OB VDC. The sad fact is for drivers over six foot, the OB w/moonroof is uncomfortable. If one is over 6'2" it's unsafe as well. Outbound visibility is seriouly reduced by the mirror at or below driver's eye level. Worse, a tall driver's head is so close to the B-pillar and interior ceiling near the door that head injury is almost guaranteed in a side impact collision (ie the seat deployed SAB don't provide full head coverage for taller drivers and side curtains don't appear to offer protection from contact with pillars and roof, and likely don't provide enough deployment force to move the head out of harms way). For me collision avoidance and crash protection deficiencies are deal breakers. Are you listening Subaru?
  • grove4grove4 Posts: 95
    I live in lancaster Pa.I am pretty sure I am the only one around that has one so far.Actually the guy that ordered this car sold the one he had and needed transportation immediatly so he bought a s60r volvo.Just so happens this is the color and everything I was waiting for so I grabbed it.My dealer says the invoice is 27,000 and he took 500 so I paid 27500.You can expect to see it with a sticker of 29k or so.I am talking limited GT.What a wonderful car in all aspects.I am really suprised how upscale the interior is and how quiet the cabin is.That was one of the beefs I always had with subaru,but this car is totally different.Oh I wanted to say this car came off the truck to the dealer on 5/18.The regular 05 cars were there on 5/16.This thing is worth waiting for and if you are considering a sports sedan you got to drive it.On top of all that it goes in the snow.You cant beat it.
  • snowbirdsnowbird Posts: 120
    Ken: $1,000 over invoice is not that bad, considering this is a 2005 "Hot" model. Whereabout is your dealer located?
  • kmartinkmartin Posts: 427
    I can't get the page to load, either. Must really be a system error (a computer first!?)

    -KarenM-
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    One item needs fixing though, and that's Bean's nasty "turbo lag". Punch the accelerator from a dead stop such as entering a freeway or making a left turn and it takes too long before the Bean moves. It's unsafe. In the Sportshift mode (1st gear) lag is cut in half but still too long. For no turbo lag off the line, you might want to look at a real turbo, Forester XT.

    Turbo lag? Not on the Bean, as it doesn't have a turbo. What you're talking about is a lack of low-end power. I agree, hence my earlier comment regarding my desire to see a 3.3 or 3.5 engine. As the H-6 is currently tuned, it's a mid to high-rpm engine. It's much better than before, but there is still a lack down low grunt.

    As to handling, I really can't comment on the Outback, as our drive in that model was limited to mainly straight roads. The Legacy GT, on the other hand I can comment on. It seemed mostly neutral driving through the infield at Las Vegas Speedway. If anything, there's a hint of oversteer, as I came close to applying some opposite lock on the steering to keep the rear end from swinging out. All-in-all, an excellent handling car. I can't wait to drive one under normal road conditions.

    Bob
  • heavybheavyb Posts: 5
    One item needs fixing though, and that's Bean's nasty "turbo lag".

    Turbo lag in an L.L. Bean Outback???

    The sad fact is for drivers over six foot, the OB w/moonroof is uncomfortable.

    Not sure where this is coming from. I'm 6'1" and I didn't notice any horrible visibility issues with the 2005 Outback ltd I sat in today.

    Cheers,
    HeavyB
  • iluvsubaru2iluvsubaru2 Posts: 56
    Bob,
    Obviously the the Bean ain't a turbo, hence "turbo lag". But the effect of executing a left turn (from a standstill at an intersection) was a delay long enough to cause real trouble if one misjudges either the speed of on-coming traffic and/or the coefficient of friction of the pavement you're standing on. It was far from responsive.

    As I said, sportshift cut that lag in half but for a 30K car I was surprised. As for the rest of the torque range, for other gears, it was fine, but not spectacular. My point was really aside from your observation of a 3.5 vs 3.0. This "lag" from a stop reminds of the earlier 2003 Foresters. After sometime, as I recall, SOA tweaked the computers and more or less fixed the problem. It's not a problem in the normally aspirated 'O4 Forester and the XT never has had turbo lag.

    Jake
  • iluvsubaru2iluvsubaru2 Posts: 56
    I hear ya HeavyB,
    If I was two inches shorter the Bean, VDC or any OB with a moonroof would be doable. But at a shade beyond 6'3" it's not. It may not seem like much but add two inches and mirror blocks my visual field, so I lose about 15 degrees of central. And then, as I said, there is that little matter of headroom.

    Look, I've no doubt SOA has it's reasons for insisting anyone who wants a Bean must take a moonroof with it. The Bean's about luxury. But I have no patience for SOA withholding VDC, after what, four years?, from every other vehicle they produced except an LL Bean.

    Jake
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    Jake

    Part of the problem is 250 HP from a 3.0 is a lot, as most of that power is made higher up on the rev scale. Couple that to a ~ 3500 lb car, and something has to give. If Subaru offered 250 HP 3.5 engine, I'm sure there would be a much better response at low rpms.

    I know Honda offers ~ 240 HP on their 3.0 Accord, but I'm sure it's quite a bit lighter than the Outback.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    is only available on the VDC Outbacks. VTD is available on the WRX AT and the '04 Legacy GT. I think the Baja Turbo AT gets it too.

    -Brian
  • luck11luck11 Posts: 425
    This discussion has peaked my interest. I am just a hair over 6'4" and with my current 00 OB, I like to keep the seat at max height. I believe the moon roof will also be an issue for me considering that my head is rather close to the roof in my current OB.

    Another thing. I notice on current and past model years (00 -04), the Ltds and Bean's had a blue sunshield at the top of the windshield. If my current vehicle had this band, and if I drove in my desired seating position, I would be looking through the blue band. Do all the 05 OB or GT wagons also have this sunshield?
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