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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • jb_shinjb_shin Posts: 357
    FWIW, there was a pilot program that ran in a few areas, and I believe it may have been modeled after the European systems. In Europe, Germany in particular, there are series of poles on the side of autobahn every 50 meters or so that counts the number of cars passing by and transmits to some sort of collection module/center which then broadcasts it over the radio. There is an optional module that works in conjunction with the NAV computer to display the result (higher count, slower speed) and the driver can go around it. While it is not perfect, it works quite well and is being used widely in Europe.

    Also, I am not sure that NAV is that much of a distraction. While cell phone without hands free (not headsets, but total hands free by way of integration with the car, voice activation, etc) is illegal in many parts of Europe, NAV is not. I used it for 3 years in Germany and have not heard of NAV causing problems on autobahn where some sections are without speed limit. Indeed, voice guidance works very well.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    So then they point down into my eyes. ;-)

    Ever driven a Miata?

    What we need are standard heights for headlights. Trucks are allowed to mount them way too high. Then the HIDs blind you completely.

    OTOH, I've had considerate UPS drivers pull directly behind me and actually turn their headlights OFF. Very thoughtful.

    G35 really has less rear legroom? Didn't seem like it.

    rob: sounds great in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it. My guess is you'll have 30-60 minute old mis-information in practice.

    Automated systems have more potential than high school interns typing in data from a traffic report, I'll admit.

    Pat nailed it, though, there is a $30k psycological barrier with Subies. Face it, all of 3 people paid more than that for a Subie so far. SVX didn't sell. VDC didn't, either, though the LL Bean sold much better.

    If we did see a HID option and a NAV option, let's be honest, where would it show up? You really think they'd offer those on the base Legacy GT?

    Fat chance! Look at Subaru's track record. They would be expensive options on the VDC model only. Right now that's $33,395 for a 2005, plus freight, plus HID and NAV and you're talking...

    $35,595

    That's my best guess. Still want it? Honestly?

    I bet 6 people would pay that in the entire USA.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    Mazda offers a NAV system on the their Impreza-level 3 model. If Mazda can do it so can Subaru. Also, the more popular NAV systems get, the prices will drop. It may be a $2K option now, but I bet in a few years it will drop to ~ $1K, which is about most automatic trannys costs. If the price drops as I predict, NAV systems will explode on to the marketplace.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sorry I'm resorting to buzzwords, but here goes...

    It would take a Paradigm Shift, an earth-shaking revolution, a blunt surprise hostile takeover, at SoA, for them to offer these things as stand-alone options.

    Let's face it, Subaru is the KING of packaging. To this day you have to spend $33k plus to get a basic safety feature like stability control, which the Ford Focus offers at about 1/3rd the price.

    With that in mind, HIDs and NAV will cost you $36 grand. You buying?

    Change the culture first, sure, then offer those. Let's see the moonroof become a stand-alone option first. Leather, too.

    -juice
  • norrmanndonorrmanndo Posts: 81
    Isn't Subaru offering anything bigger than 2.5 liter 165 HP on the outback or legacy? My wife has been wanting a Subaru, but when I priced them a few years ago I couldn't get one for a good price with an engine that satisfied me. Now it looks like the more powerful engines have been dropped all together. I don't like the looks of the forester (it seems to have a 2.5 turbo offered). 165 HP seens low for 3,300 pounds.
  • subewannabesubewannabe Posts: 403
    Since FHI offers Nav as an option in JDM, clearly they know how to put in in the car. I am inclined to think that we are overlooking why the USDM release is significantly different from the JDM and NZ turbos, and why there is no turbo in the European and Oz release thus far: EPA and CAFE.
       Suburu faces stiff penalties when they exceed 2.0L in Europe and many Pacific rim countries, which adds to the cost of the vehicle but doesnt add value. Thus, they created a 2.0L turbocharged engine capable of generating 276 HP! But I can guarantee that engine wouldnt come close to passing NA ( US/CA) emission standards.
       Thus we in US now have a 2.5L engine which SoA squeezes 300HP out of in the STi, 250 in the new Legacy Gt and 237 in the FXT ( on paper.....easy there FXT owners ;-)), with enough torque to pin you to the seat...a performance goodie that is far more important in the US car culture than in Europe or the Pacific. To substitute this new engine (and beefed up trannies to deal with all that yummy torque) while maintaining their competetive position in the market, SoA had to decide what they could let go of that MOST US/CA buyers dont want in favor of the performance the market demanded. Yup....there went the MacIntosh, the HID and the NAV. You want them as options in the 06 release: talk up the new Legacy and Outback, get all your friends to buy them, build up a cushion of profitability so that SoA can risk, and its no small risk from a marketing standpoint, selling cars that cost $36K. Mark
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,734
    "rob: sounds great in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it. My guess is you'll have 30-60 minute old mis-information in practice."

    The mobilitysystems setup has poles about 1/4 mile on the interstate with scanners, solar panels, and wireless transmitters. The information is sent to a database which updates pretty quickly for TV and radio reports. The problem there is that TV and radio only report every few minutes. I think if it were integrated with NAV systems and variable message boards, you'd get the information much quicker.

    It's all about the willingness to spend money.
  • rob999rob999 Posts: 233
    The 2.5 na (165 hp) is the base engine / base models.
    2.5 turbo and 3.0 H6 are available in the Limited and Bean models, respectively
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    How much are those features on Subies sold in other markets such as Japan and Europe? If Subaru can market them there, why not here?

    As to "Am I buying?" Not yet, but I might if it were offered in a Forester or Impreza.

    If Subaru wants to be perceived as a "premium" brand, those items are almost required to at least be "available" to those who want them, and who can afford them.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I like the idea, rob, but at least locally they've invested very little on our beltway. I'd love to see that change.

    Bob: note I said at SoA! FHI makes the stuff but it's SoA that packages them.

    SoA has to get over the idea that expensive and new features have to be grouped together. It's like there is an evil empire that says "hmm, NAV and HIDs are popular, let's group it with these overpriced luxury features (leather, moonroof, MacIntosh) to milk our customers for every last penny they own".

    Yeah, BOTH of them.

    I won't even open the "premium" can o' worms! ;-)

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The bottom line? AWD costs about $1750 in competitors' cars. Subarus are being compared directly to 2WD models, so they carry that size price disadvantage.

    If they truly want to be viewed as a premium automaker, their cars will have to cost $1750 *more* than the average price of a car, across the board. You can't have it all, not for free.

    Not everyone here would be happy with that.

    -juice
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,734
    "I like the idea, rob, but at least locally they've invested very little on our beltway. I'd love to see that change."

    juice - I was actually rather impressed on my recent FLA to Boston return trip. In MD just north of DC, there was an accident that was snarling traffic. The variable message boards actually advised what was happening, where it was, and what to do. The ones in Boston seem to be used on for things like: "Go Pats", "Toll Increase Effective Monday", "Left Lane Passing Only - $100 Fine", and my all time favorite "Tdilc #i^ *(k;ej".
  • bigelmbigelm Posts: 995
    about this NAV and HID topic.

    Fact is that it would not cost Subaru much because they already offer this to the overseas market. Come on people, put your thinking caps on...

    How much do you think it would cost Subaru to 'tweek' the NAV and HID's for the US market? If they didn't offer it overseas then of course I wouldn't expect it to arrive here. But the fact that they do have it, it's totally unacceptable that it's not even an OPTION here. Like what was mentioned before, everyone is so used to Subaru crying that they can't afford to bring this or that to the US market, now it's become 'accepted' in North America. Heck, if they can get involved with GM for other technical projects, then why not for this?

    Subaru can forget about making an impact if they're mentality is "we only hit 1% of the car industry market".

    I believe that if Subaru was to offer NAV and HID's, it wouldn't sticker at $35-$36k as people have mentioned. Fact of the matter is, because consumers like you and I are finally realizing that they are going to get jerked in comparison to other car makes offering more for the same of the VDC model, heck, it's a no brainer.

    As much as I love AWD, it's not an obligation to have; especially those who live in warmer climate. Subaru has to suck up all the incentives they're offering because they KNOW they're losing $$$. I'm sure if they would've priced their vehicles right in the beginning, they wouldn't be offering these ridiculous prices now. SOA needs a price adjust and stop crying 'wolf' ~ like some people here.

    Another thing, I don't know about how these car manufacturers measure their interior dimensions but the G35, in person, has alittle more room than the Legacy GT. Don't ask me why on paper it's different; I speak from booty experience. :-p
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    my all time favorite "Tdilc #i^ *(k;ej"

    Now *that* is the type of data I expect from my government!

    SoA is very conservative by nature. I've met several of their employees and they tend to tip-toe in with new features and new models.

    Remember when Bob Lutz used to drive new models through shattering glass? You just don't see that.

    Maybe someone needs to give them a swift kick to spark up their enthusiasm.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,661
    about SOA's conservative culture...

    But the fact remains, if they are to be perceived as being "premium," then you have to have the goods to back that up.

    Frankly I'd be VERY surprised if NAV and HIDs didn't show up for MY06 on top Legacys and Outbacks. That gives SOA a year with the new '05 model to get the customer used to Subaru being more of an upscale brand.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, I don't agree with the move upmarket to begin with. Forget the whole premium thing and offer performance and value. I want substance, not frills.

    I think we'll see either a VDCn model, at $35 grand, mind you, or they'll just wrap the NAV option into the VDC model and up the price by a grand.

    I also boldly predict that it will be the slowest selling Subaru model.

    -juice
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Check out Need-Desire.com. Depending on the trim line and body style, the 2005 Legacy/Outback offer the 2.5L 168 hp normally aspirated engine, the 2.5L 250hp turbo version of that engine, and a 3.0L H6 rated at 250 hp.

    If you want a Legacy, its possible to get a 2.5L Turbo.

    Whatever you may have read that claimed the non-turbo 2.5L H4 was the only engine available.. was flat out wrong.

    ~alpha
  • atlgaxtatlgaxt Posts: 487
    Subaru is missing the boat not offering Navigation systems as an option. From what I can tell, the going rate is $2k, for probably a couple of hundred dollars worth of electronics. They are missing out on a pretty sweet profit margin.

    Now, I would never pay that price, but like everything else, I am sure the price will drop and then I will look into it. But the point is, enough people appear to be interested right now, so Subaru is really missing out, especially if they are selling this in other markets.
  • natethomasnatethomas Posts: 11
    In regards to the issue of navigation I would recommend the Garmin Streetpilot III. While an in-dash NAV system is nice I think that having a device like the streetpilot that can be taken from your own car to a rental car is wonderful. I used my Streetpilot last summer to go on a 7000 mile trip without getting lost once. Plus it can be found for around $600 now (as compared to the $1000 I paid two years ago). Subaru tends to charge way too much for their packages anyway (especially the 17" wheels for the WRX).
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Posts: 42
    It was meant to refer to the price of a loaded G35x out the door.

    Not to imply that the Legacy should cost that or that people will spend that amount. No way No how for the '05 model.

    When the O/B VDC came out they were charging about $35K but about 4 months later the price dropped to about $30K and then it became $1K to $2K below the Passat V6 4Motion Wagon--$28K give or take. That O/B includes almost all the goodies minus Navi.

    I don't know why SOA would want to keep the price below $30K--does $29.9K really sound better? Maybe, but to whom? Is it to differentiate from the O/B prices? Or is SOA under orders from GM to keep the prices at a certain level to not compete with other GM family models (far fetched but plausible given the Ford/Jag, VW/Audi, and DC/Mercedes experience).

    I would seriously consider the '05 Legacy as a done deal at $30K (give or take $1K) with Navi and VDC.

    Bring the European Model here SOA! Flat-6 could be excused!
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