Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

snowbird

I picked up my new VDC 10 days ago and have logged 700 miles (I love to drive this car, so what can I say!) and here are some more impressions:

1. Quiet and fast - Must be careful about the cops!
2. Auto Tranny works just fine.
3. Good brakes.
4. Auto Climate Control works fine by me.
5. Can shut off "warm" air if you switch on "auto",turn knob to 65,press "fresh air" and switch off "air con"; then you get nice cool air, probably at 65 degrees ( It's simpler than it sounds). I tried this today when outside was 52.
6. Watch out for indicator signal/light when radio is on; the music sometimes drowns out the signal (which is kind of weak) and your indicator remains "on".
7. Still miss the center armrest; must order the extension when available.
8. Interior lights could be a little brighter.
9. Power windows can be improved.
10. Solid feel when you close the doors.

All in all, a very fine car. Handles and rides better than my previous Mercedes E series. Snowbird

tsy

I could give you my talk against smoking too if you want to hear it? ;-)

Just try not to breath too much exhaust, ok? You might be ok now, so let's keep it that way. ;-)

Still friends? ;-)

tom

tsy

I was thinking about getting a set of Toyo Proxxes 4s. I have had Pirelli's in the past and wore them out too quickly- maybe they're better now? I have heard good things about the zero-neros too. I'm waiting to see how they do in the snow before I buy a set.

tom

surfaceplate

I'm happy for you. Was the three month wait worth it?
Called the dealer today about my VDC but he never got back to me. You see he's been gone for ten days. got a free trip to italy from subaru.Eight weeks now and the dealership dosen't have a clue that this car may take three months to deliver.Did you just set back and wait or is there some place higher up to get answeres.With everything i've been reading here ,is it worth the wait?

sduford

Do VDCs come straight from Japan instead of Indiana?

That could explain the long delivery times...

redx

I'm a 59 year old grandmother who just purchased her 3rd Subaru in seven years. This one is a red sedan with the turbo and five speed. Two things that need to be changed. The first is having to push the dash button during the day to increase the level of the dash lighting. I need to watch my RPMs and not get a ticket. Anyway to make the bright setting the default? The second is using only the lower lens of the rear lights for the tail lights. Why not also use the upper turn signals also as tail lights. My dealer has refused to do so because of possible legal problems. Has anyone out there made the change. I wrote to Subaru a week ago, but I have been ignored. Thanks

locke2c

quote: Just try not to breath too much exhaust, ok?

LOL, look at the email address registered in my profile! I've had it since '98, when I had my last musclecar.

Still friends? ;-)
Well, duh. I haven't done it in a while, but I do love to argue for argument's sake now and then.

I realize you were trying to make a different point than I was. I just didn't want anyone to get overly alarmed about exhaust fumes-- you'll still get them while sitting in traffic and it's OK if you don't have a respirator in the car!

~Colin

snowbelter

I mentioned in an earlier post that my dealer told me VDCs are "on allocation" because Subaru is "pushing" the LLBean as the "top of the line" car. I don't know whether this is the "reality" or if there's something else going on. But, remember, for the past couple of years VDCs sat around on dealer lots because there were very few buyers. Have you contacted SOA directly to find out a reason for the delay?

c_hunter

Two things that need to be changed. The first is having to push the dash button during the day to increase the level of the dash lighting. I need to watch my RPMs and not get a ticket.

You must be leaving your parking lights or headlights on during the day. That's the only time the gauges dim, and the only time dash button works to boost brightness up.

Craig

lumbar

IMO Subaru's perception of supply and demand is at the bottom of this, which makes me wonder why they just didn't "merge" the Bean and VDC into one vehicle if they wanted to preserve the VDC technology in the product line but anticipated few VDC sales. As it stands now, it appears to me that the demand for *both* six cylinder models is lagging the XT, and I'm wondering whether a single six model--the "Bean" VDC might've given more impetus to that brand.

Well, who knows? But it does look like the XT (Ltd) is far and away the upper end volume leader.

snowbird

Surfaceplate - Normally, I would say no, but in this case, I would have to say Yes. This is a great car for the money. After also waiting for about 8 weeks, I took the matter up higher with Subaru directly and I was "assigned" my car within 2 weeks. I guess I was lucky. During the frustrating waiting period, I was considering cancelling and going for another car instead, but after a lot of re-researching, I still concluded that, for the money, this was the best buy FOR MY NEEDS. ( I realize that everybody's needs for a car are different.)

Studford - No, I believe the VDCs are also made in Indiana. I can't explain the apparent shortage, though.

Lumbar - I had tried the XT also before deciding on the VDC. It was more fun to drive and I was sorely tempted, but safety won out in the end. I live in snowy Canada!

Snowbird.

luck11

You got me thinking. Was out today and I was playing with the ACC, but the A/C did not come on when I lowered the temp. I'll do a test of this tomorrow....ie get the car cozy at 23C, then turn down to 20C and see what happens. I could see how it could be uncomfortable to get a blast of a/c air when not expecting it. To be honest, so far the ACC has not been an issue with me, but perhaps I have not used it enough.

BTW, you hit the 1600 km break-in yet?

Cheers,
Jay

sduford

I should be hitting 1600Kms on my way to the dealer Wednesday morning. Can't wait for the trip back home

redx

I do drive with the lights on and that is the problem.

dsattler

Redx, your Legacy has daytime running lights. You really don't need to turn your headlights on during the day. The DRLs are plenty bright for daytime use.

darnac

I don't have an answer to your question but just like to say it is nice to see a 59 year old buying a stick shift!

rsorganize

Feeling so guilty: got my VDC right off the lot back in June! Well, maybe not so guilty....

I agree with Lumbar: a Bean/VDC would be a great idea. I would have gone for it. Also think you're all right about poor VDC sales over the past few years driving the decision to produce so few. Does seem like the smart thing would have been to merge the H6 models, as Lumbar suggests. Even smarter would have been to make VDC available as an across-the-line option....

Surfaceplate: Might seem disingenuous to counsel patience on the VDC, when I got mine the off the lot. The car is great and certainly worth a 'reasonable' wait. But, I have a chronic problem accepting the surprisingly frequent consumer indifference of car dealers and other retailers and service providers. If you can, find another dealer when the wait gets too long and the dealer is unresponsive.

tsy

Congrats to all the new owners!

Hey, I think there are more OBs than Legacys now!
We gotta catch up! Maybe I need to get another one for my wife. ;-)

I haven't seen a VDC here in the NW yet. My dealer doesn't even have one on the lot.

Has anyone noticed their steering wheel is off center? Just a little? It's almost not enough to get fixed, but a little annoying.

Colin- it's OK if you don't have a respirator in the car!
Actually, I used to carry around a breathing tube and laryngoscope to put it in just in case I ever arrived at an accident or emergency!
Hey, you weren't in speech and debate, were you? Maybe you missed your calling as a lawyer! LOL! ;-)

tom

joyridea4

Ken, thanks for the info. I took a look at the site and they have the part I am looking for.
Don

faceoffking

Hi Folks,

I have been following some of the banter and just thought I would chime in.

I have an 05 LGT-LTD 5MT (about 6 weeks old). The ACC, while adequate, is a little quirky. First, it switches to recirc automatically when turning the A/C off. To me, recirc should be the decision of the driver only (not the ACC). Second, when behind a truck or bus, I often switch to recirc to avoid smelling diesel fumes. I have done this with every car I've owned. With my Legacy, recirc does not seem to cut the fumes much so I can't say it works very well. Third, The A/C does not turn off when switched to auto (maybe it's not cold enough yet where I live so we'll see if this changes). Fourth, I am also getting much warmer air that what is outside the car when I set temp to 65 and turn off the A/C. That setting should just bring in outside air without changing the temp of it, no?

Another gripe: I have 1600 mi. and I'm only getting about 21 MPG in mixed driving. Are those of you who are getting 25-27 MPG totally staying off the gas pedal or is some "fun driving" part of your routine? Perhaps my right foot is a little heavy.

Option Question: I ordered the popular equipment package which included an upgraded alarm system. how does the upgrade differ from the standard alarm system? What advantage(s) am I getting?

All that said, I still love the car. It is the complete package. It kicked [non-permissible content removed] through the torrential rains of hurricane Gene in S. Jersey - didn't miss a step. I can't wait for the first snow.

Thanks,

Faceoffking

sduford

Yes quirky is an understatement in my book...

But I guess some people are pickier than others, as many here seem to think the ACC is just fine as it is.

Personally I expect HAL (the ACC) to be working to keep ME comfortable, not the other way around!

surfaceplate

Just a quick update on the VDC.Dealer called me this morning with V.I.N. number.Car is built but it isn't. Waiting for a part to install before shipping.I'll give them a couple more weeks before looking elswhere. Trouble is ,it took me all summer from dealer to dealer, to get the best deal.

luck11

Ok, did the test this morning and with ACC on, I turned it up to 25C for a about a minute than turned it down to 20C, and sure enough, the A/C kicked in as you said. I also noticed that if I turned it down further, ie. 18C, the mode changed from feet and defrost to the dash vents. Strange indeed.

Perhaps as the cold weather approaches, I'll notice this quirkiness more, but at this point in time, I really can't say its been an issue with me. Manual controls are far more burdensome, in my opinion, since I would often turn up the heat in winter and not clue into the fact that it was too hot until the sweat started forming on my forehead.

luck11

faceoffking,

In Canada, the upgraded alarm essentially adds a shock sensor to the security system so if someone or something bumps your vehicle, it sets off alarm. If this is true for the US, then after market may have been a less expensive alternative. Up here, dealer wants C$188 for the sensor, plus labor I believe. Local performance shop would supply and install an aftermarket shock sensor (state of the art DEI product....makers of most aftermarket alarms) for about C$90.

c_hunter

Ok, did the test this morning and with ACC on, I turned it up to 25C for a about a minute than turned it down to 20C, and sure enough, the A/C kicked in as you said. I also noticed that if I turned it down further, ie. 18C, the mode changed from feet and defrost to the dash vents. Strange indeed.

That last part is normal -- heat is usually at floor level and cooling at panel level. Even on manual systems, they normally recommend that mix for the best comfort, in many different vehicle types. So I would say that Subaru just programmed the system to mimic the accepted best strategies for heating and cooling.

Also, the temps you used are somewhat arbitrary unless we know the outside temp and the inside temp relative to the set points. Remember, the system can only do so much -- it will attempt to cool if you dial in a set point that is lower than the inside temp, and it will attempt to heat if the opposite. I believe the fan level varies based on how far the inside temp is from the set point, meaning it controls how agressively the system heats and cools. But that's about it. There is some input from the sun sensor, but it's not always useful (since it's in one corner of the dash).

Keep in mind that I have an intimate, and somewhat jaded, view of control systems. This is how they behave whether it's automotive HVAC or aircraft S&C. It's clear in this case that the Subaru HVAC system is kind of primitive in the way it chases after set points and oscillates to convergence. Could they have made it better? Most likely. Otherwise we are seeing classic control system behavior. Whenever you try to program a system to make decisions and control something as importat as climate (which many people are sensitive and irritable about), it's bound to make at least 50% of the users unhappy!

Craig

saywhat

Ken many thanks to you and all the other people on this forum who have tried to help with the warm air and toxic fumes problem. I think I should make it clear that I have a 05 Leg. GT.Ltd. sedan and not a wagon, and on many other forums there are a lot of people having the same problem. When my sunroof is open and I accelerate past 3000 rpm', (that's when the turbo kicks in), within about 3 seconds the car smells awful. It takes about two min. for the fumes to clear out of the pass. compartment. Even with the sunroof closed, I still get a very, very, slight odor under the aforementioned conditions. If i drive very conservatively, this does not seem to happen. As far as the warm air goes, When the service Manger and I tested it, the AC was off, temp turned down to 65, fresh air mode selected. Plus with the ser. manager doing the checking, you know he and I tried every thing poss. to correct the problem with no luck. Is it poss. that when the exhaust fumes turn the turbo, there could be a leak in the turbo somehow? My car has 1,900 mi. It seems to run perfect. I don't push it, and I have followed all the proper break in procedures. Even the service manager seems to feel that both these problems are eng. or and design flaws, and we are waiting for a solution from SOA in Japan. Again, thanks to all of you who have tried to help, and I "will" keep the board informed as I go through this very frustrating, and aggravating situation. Bob

samiam_68

Wait till you guys start seeing some really cold weather and getting ROASTED by the ACC before it backs off and switches to FREEZE-ME mode... Subaru should stay AWAY from ACC, since they haven't a CLUE how to make them. It might be worth for them to buy an Accord, or any Lexus or Volvo models, take them apart and see how ACC SHOULD be done. Working a normal ACC is a two step process. Step 1 - you SET it. Step 2 - you FORGET it. Otherwise it's NOT and ACC.

c_hunter

Since you have two very obvious and "bad" problems, I wonder if they are related at all?? Seems like a long shot, so maybe we should continut thinking of them separately.

Can you describe the smell of the fumes?? Does it smell like exhaust, burning oil, burning clutch/brakes, burning AT/PS fluid, or coolant?? These are all unique odors that can help trace the problem.

With the heater, do you notice a difference between the 65 and 85 settings?? Is it 101 and 101++, respectively, coming out of the vents?? If it's a consistent 101 or so all the time, I would suspect the heater core valve is jammed open so that it's always heating the air. It could be as simple as looking down around the heater and it's cables and linkages to see if something is stuck. When changing the temp knob, you should definitely see/hear some sort of actuation of a cable and/or linkage down around the heater.

If something was installed improperly in the dash, it may be interfering with the system. For instance, I unknowingly blocked the mode select cable in my WRX when I installed some stereo upgrades, and didn't realize something was wrong until months later when I could not get it to defrost. It was a simple fix to trace the mechanism associated with the mode knob (that was a manual system) and see that a wire was in the way.

Craig

sduford

Craig, I live in the same area as Luck11 so I know that this morning the outside tempereture was around 10-12C.

And that is the whole point, the system is too dumb to take the outside air temp into account, it just says "oh, I have to cool now, let's turn the A/C on". And why does the A/C indicator always stay on? We have no way to know if it is wasting energy by using A/C when it isn't really needed. It should turn on and off with the A/C itself...

I'm actually starting to think that the HAL moniker is no longer appropriate; HAL was pretty smart, just too smart in fact.

The Subaru ACC has the following problems that I can deduce from the user manual and observation:

There is only one interior temperature sensor, on the driver's side, so it can only "pretend" to offer seperate temp controls for driver and passenger. Ditto for the sunshine sensor, which is located in front of the passenger.

That single temp sensor is poorly placed and reacts too slowly, causing the temperature to overshoot the setting.

There appears to be no input from an outside temp sensor, or if there is, the algorithm is very dumb!

The overall temp control algorithm is too dumb to start slowing down before it reaches the set temperature, making the overshoot problem even worst.

So bottom line is that the ACC works, but it is very crude indeed, not worthy of such an otherwise fine automobile. It amazes me that Subaru has been living with this cheap ACC for years and hasn't done anything about it.

Now, I sure hope Subaru engineers do a better job with the power management program on their hybrid prototype!

saywhat

Acc, Hal, Pita,-- I agree 101 percent. I owned 4 acuras, and 3 Hondas and Subaru could really learn something by doing what you suggest. My wife ownes a 04 forrester turbo, and I own a 05 Leg. GT. Ltd. sedan, see my previous post. Need I say more? BoB

paisan

Wait till you guys start seeing some really cold weather and getting ROASTED by the ACC before it backs off and switches to FREEZE-ME mode... Subaru should stay AWAY from ACC, since they haven't a CLUE how to make them. It might be worth for them to buy an Accord, or any Lexus or Volvo models, take them apart and see how ACC SHOULD be done. Working a normal ACC is a two step process. Step 1 - you SET it. Step 2 - you FORGET it. Otherwise it's NOT and ACC.


While I never had burn me or freeze me, i've never seen any ACC system that was set and forget, nor do I know anyone who has had one in any vehicle (lexus, MB, Honda, or otherwise)

-mike

c_hunter

I agree with Mike -- the system in my wife's Acura TSX is slightly better than the one in my Outback, but not a set and forget system by any means. In fact, we carpooled today in her car and changed the temperature a couple times to stay comfortable (at one point I cracked my window, which is my version of dual controls, at least until she locks out the window controls!). I think the TSX system is a little more sane than Subaru's, but it's definitely not perfect.

Craig

kens

Actually, the brightness dial does work even with the headlights off. It's just that when the headlights are on, the settings drop to a much dimmer level in anticipation that it's dark enough outside.

Ken

kmclean

This discussion makes me glad my (then top-of-the-line) 2K OB Ltd only came with a manual system - which works just fine, thank you.

My Maxima has an ACC, which was truly set-and-forget when I lived in South Texas and A/C was the primary "climate-controller." It did startle me very early one morning (the first truly cool morning) when it delayed starting the fan until the engine had warmed up enough to produce heat - then cranked out warm air at max fan setting (had to go re-read the manual to figure that one out). It does have a handy override system (that essentially converts as many of the "auto" functions to "manual" as you wish) that includes disabling the compressor. Up here in Seattle I use the manual settings almost entirely, in part because the ACC can't recognize when defrosting (versus simple heating) is required (hence the separate "defrost" button). I just hope the sucker never breaks (I can imagine the $$$).

Hope you get bugs worked out!

Cheers from (amazingly) sunny Seattle!

Ken M.

kens

Yes, my guess at this point is that there might be a leak somewhere along the exhaust/turbo plumbing. It's probably a manufacturing defect rather than a design flaw since I haven't heard of a similar problem with other owners. It's a bummer that something needs to be repaired so soon, but our vehicles are mass produced and there are occasional bugs.

I'd set up a case with Subaru (1-800-SUBARU3) just so that they can follow the progress made by your dealer.

Good luck.

Ken

saywhat

Craig; I would describe the smell like a smell that comes out of a cat. converter, but my service manager said it was exhaust fumes, and remember, there are many other owners of 05 Leg. GT Ltd. sedans with the same problem. When I took the Service Manager for a ride the other day, we stopped opened the hood and could not smell the fumes. He put his nose near the end of the tail pipe, and said they are definitly exhaust fumes we are smelling when the sun roof is open and I accelerate into turbo. The warm air problem goes like this. When I first start the car in the AM, everything is fine. As the car warms up so does the air coming out of the vents. When I move the heater control to 70, 80,85, the heat goes up accordingly. It gets really hot when it's cold out, and the AC gets really cold when it's hot out.

saywhat

I could not agree more. And I will follow your suggestions as soon as we see what SOA comes up with. I will let the board know what is going on as we continue with this case I have now dubbed, "As the stomach churns".

kens

There was a comment about the HVAC system going to recirc mode when turning off the A/C. I believe that is caused by the system trying to use whatever parameters are left to best keep the temperature setting. Remember, the HVAC system has a full auto and semi-auto mode. When you hit the AUTO button, it starts in full auto. Any adjustment of any control (except temp) will cause the system to go into semi-auto mode. The HVAC system will keep whatever setting you chose (fan speed, recirc, whatever) and use the remaining variables to achieve the temperature you want.

If you notice, the HVAC system will always start in recirc mode since it's the fastest way to cool the interior of the vehicle. If you shut off A/C, the system will go into recirc mode in a best effort to maintain the set temperature.

For me, I've just learned to dial down the temperature to 65, hit A/C and then recirc.

Ken

dsattler

My wife's 2001 Sienna van's ACC is completely set and forget: it stays on the same setting for months and works exactly as it should, unlike my 2005 Legacy.

bluesubie

I gave up on ACC in my FXT after only a couple of weeks (purchased last Dec.). Once in a while, I put it in Auto mode but give up after about a minute.

As already mentioned extreme temps are worse. Set it and forget it? My parents' '95 Continental.

-Dennis

paisan

Yeah if you live in TX of course it's set and forget it! I would think it would be on AC all the time.....you guys are a riot.

-mike

tsy

Actually, some of the most powerful and quiet climate control systems I've ever experienced have been in these big american luxury cars. I'd swear there was frost on some of the vents sometimes!

I didn't buy my LGT for the ACC, so it doesn't bug me that it's not perfect. It's just not a big deal to me to adjust the fan or temperature once in a while. It's not a Mercedes or BMW, and I don't expect it to be.

tom

sduford

But hte point is that if you have to fiddle with it, it is not automatic!

So why bother with the extra expense and complexity of an ACC that you have to manually fiddle with? Subaru should do it right (it's not rocket science) or leave it out.

kens

A slight difference in nuances here, but the system runs by itself so it's automatic. The issue is that you don't seem like the settings it choses.

Out of curiosity, do you fiddle more or less with it when it's in automatic mode vs. manual mode?

Ken

locke2c

quote: I would describe the smell like a smell that comes out of a cat. converter, but my service manager said it was exhaust fumes, and remember, there are many other owners of 05 Leg. GT Ltd. sedans with the same problem. When I took the Service Manager for a ride the other day, we stopped opened the hood and could not smell the fumes. He put his nose near the end of the tail pipe, and said they are definitly exhaust fumes we are smelling when the sun roof is open and I accelerate into turbo.

there is a very high probability that the problem is too high of sulfur fuel. switch brands. make sure you're using premium of course.

in a few years when the low sulfur fuel mandate becomes active, this won't be a problem. but until then, a batch of high sulfur fuel can readily clog a catalyst and cause a rotten egg smell.

usually a few tanks of lower sulfur fuel fixes it, but if not that's what your factory emissions warranty is for-- have the dealership replace all the catalysts (probably 2-3).

~Colin

lumbar

Edmunds gets some ink in the latest issue of "Drive," along with two familiar names from these forums. For better or worse, it's nice to put faces with the names.

sduford

Actually, it doesn;t run by itself: it can't even maintain a simple temperature setting, which is really all I'm asking for.

I would say that I fiddle with it about the same amount when in manual mode, perhaps a little less, depending on the weather conditions. And I would fiddle with it even less if it didn't insist on selecting extra settings for me every time I touch a button.

There is one thing I like about it though, that's the one-touch defrost/defogger mode.

mjc440

Saywhat - Thanks for keeping me in the loop with your similar problem.

Keep in mind my car is the non-turbo 2.5i, so the fumes are probably not turbo-related. The fumes I smell are not exhaust fumes, but fumes coming from the hot catalytic converter on the passenger side (if that makes any sense?). This seems to be similar to what you are describing.

Also, like you, I would take the TL any day over the Legacy if it had AWD. I predict the TL will have AWD for its 2007 "refreshening".

jmtreetop

I just bought a 2005 OB XT a week ago and have had none of the problems listed in the previous posts. There are little things that I would like such as steering wheel controls or 30 sec. power to the windows etc. but I have never owned a car (have had 8 now) that had everything that I wanted. The climate control works fine for me although it needs adjusting every once in awhile. Every vehicle I have owned with ACC has needed adjustment. It's similar to my house...granted that I don't have to change the temp. setting, it does get warmer in here when the heat is on and feels much cooler in here prior to the heat coming on. By the way, there are VDC's available on the lot in Colorado. Anyway, I think it's a great car for the price and options (particularly AWD). I took mine into the mountains to test it on some snow and it performed great, even with the stock tires.

tsy

The TL might have it sooner than that, but I'm sure it will cost you. The TL is a nicer car, and no doubt in this price range a few thousand dollars still can get you quite a bit of 'niceness'. But a TL AWD is likely to run more than $10K above your non-GT Legacy, which puts it in an entirely different class. It's probably going to be at least $5-7K more than a GT Ltd, if they only add a few thousand for the AWD. There's a large selection of nice cars at $40K (Volvo, Audi, and the new Lexus GS 430 is coming), and for a little more (at this stage, what's another $10K?) you are talking MB E/BMW 5/Audi A6 land, which are much nicer cars.

But in the under $30K class, it's hard to beat the performance, safety, and value of the Legacy, IMHO. ;-) (sheesh, I'm starting to sound like a car saleman)

Of course, I'd take an M5 over my LGT anyday, if I could get one for the same price! ;-)

tom