Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

expy02

Jil,

I went with the sedan since we already had the Outback (wagon). I drove both the GT wagon and sedan and thought the sedan was a little quicker and handled better. I also have my Expedition so if the snow gets really deep I can always switch vehicles. Roland was also my salesman for both deals but I also deal with Kevin Brown, the owner's son.

expy02

I have just over 1900 miles on my GT Ltd, 5EAT and my mileage is between 17-19 mixed use. But I did average over 23 on a trip to VA with less than 1000 miles on the car.

jilt

I'm currently trying to find a GT Wagon to take for a spin, not too many around here, but I am not in a major hurry ...

In our situation we originally bought the Outback to be our carry-all workhorse and inclement weather car. It's been great (albeit a bit underpowered). About a year ago we bought a 4WD diesel pickup to pull a trailer ... talk about ground clearance (LOL). Now that we have the truck, the need for the extra ground clearance of the OB is not quite as essential. But I do want to stick with a wagon, while I *can* drive the truck, I almost need a step ladder to climb in.

The OB was a real treat the first year we bought it ...it snowed a ton. A big step-up from the Honda Civic I was driving at the time.

Still waiting to hear back from the guys at Metric...

regards,

Jil

melville

Hi,

Thanks for the advise on the armrest extension, just what I needed to hear as I'm installing one on my '05 Outback. I do have one question, when you say "just pop off the panel", do you not have to worry about breaking it? It sounds like there're just some sort of pressure clips holding it on. I'm guessing that you just slide a screwdriver underneith it and pry. Is that right?

Thanks in advance,

Chi Melville

locke2c

not positive on an '05, but on older Subarus you open the lid, unscrew the old rest entirely with a few screws in the bottom of it, and install the new.

~c

dcm61

I have a 3/36 maintenance coupon good for an '05 Legacy or Outback.

Qualifications:

- retail delivery between 6/1/04 and 9/30/04.
- less than 7500 miles when coupon is submitted.
- must be redeemed within 60 days of vehicle purchase or lease date.
- continental US and Alaska only.

Also have one with the same qualifications except delivery between 7/1/04 and 11/1/04.

If one you are interested, email me (dcm1961 at hotmail dot com) with your name / address and whether you want the 9/30 or 11/1 coupon.

I may have access to 1 more of each coupon.

DaveM

locke2c

oh boy, get ready for a frenzy.

saywhat

I had 3 Acura Ledgends, 87, 90,and 91. The Acc. was absolutely perfect. Let's face it, The Acc. on the 05 Leg. GT Ltd. and it seems on almost all the Subarus is lousy. The facts are the facts, and if we don't all complain about it, instead of making excuses for Subaru and GMC, nothing is going to change. To make excuses for an obvious incompetent system is to encourage Subaru to continue their incompetence and discount us like they could care less. I know some of you may disagree with me but this is my opinion! As we all know, the squeaking wheel gets the grease!!

saywhat

expy; I have 1,900 on my GT Ltd. At sedan, and I'm getting about the same gas mileage as you in mixed use etc..

saywhat

Colin; That is a very good thought. The only thing is that I am using the same high test gas (Texco) that I used in my 91 Acura Legend for years, and never experienced a problem like I am having now, But thanks for the idea, it's a great thought and I will try it, who knows? BOB

dsattler

Yes, it's a panel that just pops off, held by (as I recall) a couple of tabs. Can't remember if I used my fingers or a screwdriver. I think the instructions said to remove the ashtray, so on some models there must be an ashtray instead of a blank plastic panel. Truly, it took me five minutes.

famof3kids

Anyone come across this website? Seems a terrible waste of money. Also interesting that SOA isn't taking advantage of corporate marketing/websites, etc.
http://www.subaru.co.jp/movie/
One of the movies is in english, the others aren't, so, if you go in Japanese mode, you'll see those movies. Kinda 'artsy'.....

c_hunter

Well, we should formulate a sane and polite message and pass it on to Subaru (perhaps through Patti). I have found that they respond pretty well to good suggestions that are backed up by legit details.

Craig

locke2c

BOB,

let us know how switching brands works out. it wasn't just a guess out of thin air-- I work for an oil company. we pioneered low sulfur fuel in 1998.

http://www.blueplanetgas.com

~Colin

sduford

Good suggestion Craig.

I would volunteer to create a first draft but I'm off to Thailand in two days and won't be back home for 3 weeks.

I had another furstrating episode this morning. It was very cool but sunny this morning in the mountains, 5C (41F), but the inside of the car was already comfortable because of the sun. My wife and I left for the city and I set the ACC to 23C (73F) both sides. After a few minutes it got really hot in the car, I let it continue because I wanted to see what HAL would do. But then my wife started complaining that it was really hot. Believe me, when my wife thinks it is hot, it is REALLY HOT.

So I turned both sides down to 20C (68F), it was taking too long to cool off so I pressed the mode swith to take it off auto and get a bit of air at face level. The odd thing here is that when I did that, the A/C was left on, odd since the auto was in heating mode. After a few minutes it was still hot and I noticed that it had also switched to "recirc" mode...

Sounds like Subaru designers made a lot of bad assumptions when they designed this thing. Subarus are extremely popular up here in Eastern Canada, so why doesn't the ACC work in a cold climate???

bluesubie

There have been quite a few scattered across the Subaru Crew forums. I also sent Patti a link to another forum (I think) with an ACC survey. The guy that started it owns an older model VDC and the ACC works fine in it, but not in his FXT.

The more feedback SoA gets, the better. I think they might have tweaked the '05 FXT/FXS CC a little. I've read something about more fan speeds and see less complaints on the '05's.

-Dennis

c_hunter

The system in the older VDC was the same one I had in my Bean, and it did work very well. Guess what -- that system was apparently designed by a third party and integrated into the H6 Outback models from what I have heard. Even the AC compressor was unique as I remember.

Craig

dcm61

The coupons are gone.

DaveM

kens

The Acura TL is already more pricey than a Legacy GT even without the AWD option. It's a very nice vehicle, and it's in the next higher class than the GT from a luxury standpoint. For me, the choice was easy. No wagon, not a contender.

I have a hard time believing VDCs are on any allocation. The 05 VDCs have a lot more common parts to other OBs than in the previous model. The only thing unique in the VDC would be the VDC sensor and control unit itself. The reason why you see so few is really due to low demand. It's a nice vehicle, but also the most pricey OB model. With the advent of the OBXT and LL Bean w/VTD in the 05 models, the VDC is a harder sell.

Craig -- that's interesting. I wonder why they didn't just use what was available in Japan already.

Ken

robr2

I wouldn't be suprised to see AWD add perhaps $1200 to the MSRP of any of the Acura models. Honda is known for up-contenting their vehicles without a tremendous increase in price.

The TSX with AWD would MSRP in the under $28.5K area based on the above. That said, it competes directly with (more than the TL) and offers more features than the Legacy GT LTD at a lower price. Now I know the folks here will bring up the issues of torque and HP. But you need to remember that not every buyer out there is a gear head. Both vehicles are compacts. Torque to most folks means squat. Subaru wins on HP but Acura wins on brand snobbery and warranty.

Further, I think that Acura is targeting Audi with its AWD announcement. It's the standard Acura value proposition.

I'm not trying to knock down the GT - it's a nice vehicle. But given the choice, I'd probably buy the Acura. I'd prefer a wagon as well and Acura has one - just not in North America.

spindoctor

Does anyone know if Acura will ever sell a wagon in the U.S.? It would be a big seller if the price were right!

kens

I'm sure you would see a Honda wagon come back before you saw an Acura wagon.

Ken

snowbird

Ken and others:

What is the best (and simplest) way to warm up the cabin of my VDC when it's cold outside? It's getting cold here and I am all confused after reading the manual and previous posts on the ACC subject. Thanks. Snowbird. Oh, I forgot to add "and keep the inside temperature somehat constant at, say 70"

kens

Snowbird,

The easiest and simplest way is to hit the "AUTO" button and choose a temperature that's good for you.

It works for me. The mornings here have been in the 50s. My temp's usually set at around 72. I hit "AUTO" and the unit sends warm air to the floor. After the cabin gets warm enough, it goes into bi-level mode. Once the outside temperature gets into the mid 60's, it goes into vent mode.

Ken

locke2c

Like the old Accord wagon was a big seller?

~c

snowbird

Thanks, Ken, for your quick response. I will surely try that and hope that I won't get "blasted" with either too cold or too hot air. Snowbird. ps. This is a wonderful forum! I think you guys should get paid or at least recognized by Subaru for your invaluable and prompt service.

c_hunter

I agree with Ken (as usual!). One tidbit -- if it's really cold out, the system will switch to defrost and turn the fan off until the engine warms up enough to produce heat. Then the system will kick in to floor mode and start heating up the cabin. It's pretty neat. So, you don't have to worry about getting cool air blown on you while the engine warms up!

Craig

tsy

Add AWD to the TSX and it will become even slower than it already is. No torque to move more weight of the AWD drivetrain. It would become competition for the 2.5i limited, not the GT, and would cost at least $4-5K more.

The inside of the TSX is nice, but not much nicer than the legacy, and certainly not $5000 nicer. You could line the entire interior of the Legacy with Suede for that much! ;-)

Acura, IMHO, is still a wanna be company. It's still a Honda, doesn't have the prestige of MB, BMW, Audi, or even Lexus. Nice cars, but no true snob would drive one. ;-)

tom

melville

Thanks, you're right, it was just held by a couple of tabs. I was reluctant to start prying on it, but decided to pry away and it just popped off, no damage. The rest was easy.

Thanks again,

Chi

ryanl1

"so I pressed the mode swith to take it off auto and get a bit of air at face level. The odd thing here is that when I did that, the A/C was left on"

sduford: Instead of hitting the mode button try hitting the off button first and then go from there. I haven't really had a problem with the ACC,but then again I don't really use it that much since I'm on the West Coast and like to let the air flow thru the vents. I do notice it is a slow reacting system.

michael2

you can vote for the vehicle of your preference at www.roadandtrack.com/rtvote. the gt is on the list, hate to see it upstaged by the ford 500awd, or the tsx, which is a nice little car, but not in the class of the gt. if you want a comparison the candidates should be bmw 330xi,volvo s60awd, audi a4, g35x. this is not to drub the tsx, it's simply now an awd vehicle, and those who purchased the gt, did so for the performance, and awd. even with awd, the gt would trounce the tsx,as for snob appeal and brand name, it's not a lexus or infiniti g35x, it's a slicked up honda.

sduford

While I agree th GT compares favourably with those cars in terms of performance and handling, it still has a long way to go before it matches them in terms of luxury, comfort, and refinement.

It appears close at first as the interior is beautiful, but when you live with for a while, you realize that it's not really there yet.

I still love my OXT Ltd, and would buy it again. But I am disapointed by the seats which are nothing to write home about, the ACC which I have already ranted enough about, and little touches like the lack of seat memory, no audio controls on the steering wheel, average stereo quality, remote buttons too sensitive, small fuel tank, and no 30 sec. residual accessory power after you turn the ignition off.

Those are mostly small details and I would buy my car over again because of it's price/performance ratio, utility, and dependabilioty. But for someone shopping for an entry-level luxury vehicle, the Subies are just not refined enough yet to compete with the Europeans. The devil's in the details.

robr2

As I noted: to gearheads, torque is important. To the vast majority of the buying public, torque means squat. People would cross shop an AWD TSX with an AWD Legacy GT. They are in the same price area, have the same EPA classification, and similar features.

As for weight, I guess it depends on what type of AWD Honda would go with. They might use independent motor assist - 2 electric motors driving the rear wheels when needed as opposed to a full on mechanical connections to the transmission. That former would be much lighter.

True, Acura doesn't have the prestige of the brands you mentioned but it does have more prestige than Subaru. And many folks buy based on that.

robr2

I think you'd see a TSX wagon before an Accord wagon. None of the Accords NA competitors has a wagon alternative save for Subaru. The TSX is already available as a wagon in Europe and Asia. I don't think it needs to be federalized as the sedan already is. Someone at Acura needs to make a business case for it.

c_hunter

I would definitley have considered a TSX wagon. With all the other wagons coming out, it may have a market here.

Craig

lumbar

Could you eleaborate a little more on the seat? I think it's the first time I've seen you mention that.

We rented an OB with cloth seats for several days, and the seat (even with 8-way power) was one of my major issues in terms of long-drive comfort. I've also tested an OB with leather and didn't notice a significant difference. I'm a "normal" six-footer.

On the other hand, when I tested a Mazda 6 wagon (still a possibility for us), it was IMO more comfortable--although the telescopic wheel may have helped.

BTW, your posts have been very helpful to me as a Subie owner but prospective OB buyer.

sduford

I'm glad my posts are helping. I still love the car and think it is great value for money, but I am a very critical and picky person by nature.

The seats feel wonderful at first. They are a bit narrow for me, but it is not a major issue. With the 8-way, I am also able to get a perfect driving position, and the seats grip well when cornering hard.

However, yesterday we took our first long trip in it (3 hours), and both my wife and I had sore bums. The seat cushions don't seem to have enough "give" in them and do not comform nicely to the shape of your butt. I'm a fairly big guy (6', 230lbs) but my wife is rather small (5'7", 130 lbs), and we both had the same problem.

Having said that, I come from Volvo's which have arguably the best seats in the business. In my 850 I could drive 12-14 hours without feeling sore or needing to reposition. The OXT's seats have a more ergonomic shape and offer better back support then the ones in my Highlander, but the seat bottoms are too hard. If it was a purchase and not a lease, I would consider getting a bit of extra padding added to them. In fact, if the price is right I might get that done anyway.

tsy

Honda's IMA is a neat idea, but I'm sure it would cost a lot to then connect it independently to each rear wheel. Their current IMA is a flat electric motor sandwhiched in between the engine and the transmission. They would need to develop a whole new system just for the AWD with 2 motors instead of one, and at what cost? The new Accord Hybrid is around $4K more than the 'plain' one, IIRC. I doubt it's going to happen too soon.

More prestige? Sure, a little. Significant- not at this level (unless you live in a place where you think who you are depends on what you drive!) But Subaru is trying to move upmarket and may catch Acura. If you want more prestige, buy a Saabaru. ;-) Besides, Subies have their own very loyal following.

Once again, you could nitpick about any car at this price range, but once again we did not spend 6 figures on a car, and even then no car is perfect for everyone (look at i-drive or the center stack controls on a $100K MB- awful!)

But look at what Subaru has done very well. For a first year model, it's very well assembled, quiet and comfortable inside, it's got a great engine (especially if you have the turbo), the tranny's much improved and from what others have been saying the 5EAT is well designed, it's got a bulletproof AWD system (look at Audis, VW, or Volvos for problems), and decent handling which improves significantly by swapping the tires (from what I understand, I haven't done this yet). You don't become the Japan Car of the Year for nothing.

In fact, if you forgo the leather seats, you can easily get into a GT for about $25K ($26 for the XT or wagon). How many other AWD sub 6 sec 0-60 sedans and wagons are out there at this price? Zero. None. Nada.

But most of all, I still enjoy driving my GT ltd every day, even after almost 4 months (and I get tired of cars quickly). For the money, it's a great car and there aren't many others in this price range that can make you smile day after day. ;-)

 tom

tsy

sduford, you might find that the seats get more comfortable over time as they break in. If not, there are all sorts of ergonomic seat cushions you can buy which should make you more comfortable.

There is no one seat that can fit everyone perfectly in this country. Your 'rather small' wife would dwarf mine (what do you Canadians consider large?). ;-) j/k, please don't answer! I think most manufacturers build for the average American 5'10" male.

tom

robr2

I was under the impression that IMA at the rear corners was something Honda was working on. I recall an article somewhere. If I am wrong then I admit it.

More prestige? Sure, a little. Significant- not at this level (unless you live in a place where you think who you are depends on what you drive!) But Subaru is trying to move upmarket and may catch Acura. If you want more prestige, buy a Saabaru. ;-) Besides, Subies have their own very loyal following.

I live in New England - I know Subies following!! You can't walk 100 yards without tripping over an Outback. As for prestige, many people seek it - even unknowingly.

Hey, I have nothing against the GT - it's on my list as well as the 2.5i and the plain old TSX. I'm just bringing up the fact that if Acura were to introduce a TSX with AWD, it would be a vialble alternative for many people. My experience with Honda gives me great confidence. The longer warranty does the same. The TSX has everything I want at a reasonable price except that my preference now is for a wagon.

sduford

LOL. thanks Tom. That's why I said "rather" sh'es not petite but she's very slim.

I don't think the problem is one of fit, except for the slightly narrow bottom which doesn't bother me too much, I think they fit me really well. Anyway, glad to hear the seats get better with time. I am hoping that as the leather gets softer the comfort will improve.

kens

So true. Most comparisons look at only peak HP, even the car magazines. The gap widens when you compare the peak torque between the TSX and GT.

Ken

macchi

Hello everyone, I recently acquired an OB 2.5i and was wondering if anyone had any experience installing the optional perimeter alarm sensor themselves. I was told this was relatively easy to do but wanted to confirm with you folks here. Thanks very much, I've been enjoying reading the posts, and the car as well!

Freddy

grove4

It wouldnt work to well unless they inject some suitable power for the awd.I guess they could try it the way it is but I wouldnt call it a sports sedan with 0-60 times over 8 seconds.Now it gets 7.5 so thats not real respectable either for an acura that is refered to as a "sports sedan".

rsholland

is that when the TSX (not if, but when) gets AWD, it will also sport a tweaked Accord 3.0 V6. That will give it all the power it needs.

Bob

rsholland

http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/10/14/252908.html

michael2

considering that the audi,bmw,s60,g35 all are $5000 to $10000 more then a gt limited, the subaru is still the best bang for the buck. looked at and considered all three, and had signed for a volvo s60 awd, $37,000 car, but lack of a memory seat doesn't phase me, i find no problems with the seats or the a/c, and think it's a better deal. i'd like traction control and vdc standard on the limited,or an option on the other models, and better fuel economy, but still think this vehicle is a great car,for the money.

sduford

I think you missed my point. I am in total agreement with you that the Subaru provides more for the money. But when it comes to selecting a "car of the year" value for money is only one dimension, and probably not the most important one. Same goes for most people looking for a luxury ride. I would say that for most people who shop the European cars, the look, luxury, and prestige are more important than the price.

The Subaru provides better value and capability for the money, which is why I bought one. But they are not as refined as the Europeans, no matter how you slice it. So depending on what YOUR values and priorities are, you may pick a Subaru (as you and I have done) or you can pick the more refined and more expensive cars.

If you think the seats in the Subie are fine, then you haven't sat in a recent Volvo or Audi for a long trip, there is just no comparisons.

Once again, the devil is in the details, small details, but many of them.

tsy

I got my first oil change today. The dealer put a Castrol sythetic blend. Next time they said to bring synthetic and they'd put it in. I'll probably change to M1.

Anyway, I was looking around the dealer, no VDCs, but I saw one R sedan. It's an interesting look, but I'm not sure I'd buy one. I think the non-ltd GT is probably the best value, this being the first time I ever actually looked at one. Although even the base 2.5i legacy and OB are pretty nice.

If I had to do it again I might get the non-ltd GT and add aftermarket leather (which is a little nicer) but I would lose the sunroof. Oh well, it rains too much here to use it anyway. ;-)

sduford- with the money you save on buying an Audi or Volvo, you could swap out the seats and still be ahead! (except for the side airbags though- ;-( ) But you could definitely get nicer aftermarket leather, which would improve the interior a lot.

tom

luck11

I generally agree with many of the issues here although many do not impact me (ie memory seats) or are issues I can live with (although as each day progresses, I believe the ACC has a mind of its own).

My gripe? The design of the rear seat and buckles, and how it restricts the use of the middle position of the seat for booster seats.

My 00 OB buckles had much lateral play and extended out far enough to allow flexibility in the size and positioning of a booster seat in the middle position.....the safest position for a booster seat. With one child, we have always positioned my son's seat in the middle position.

These are the probs with my OB XT Ltd:

1. No lateral play of the buckles
2. Buckles barely extend out from the seat leaving little surface area to grip when attempting to insert a taught belt.
3. Space between the two buckles used for the middle position is much smaller than any booster seat I have seen.
4. The middle hump makes it impossible for any booster seat to be firmly placed.

Result? I break a sweat everytime I try to buckle in my son, and this usually leads to some under-my-breath cursing. The seat wobbles side to side no matter how snug or taught the seat belt.

Resolution: I need to make some sort of formed cushion out of high density foam to create a larger flat surface area. As far as the buckling goes, the only thing I can think of is some sort of 4" buckle extension (assuming this is safe). Is any such thing available?

This truly, truly ticks both my wife and I off! Here a company that promotes SAFETY, and yet they design a rear seat that restricts owners from maximizing safety by making it nearly impossible to use the middle position of the rear seat for a child/booster seat!!! What were they thinking!!

On the other hand, buyer beware. Partly my own fault for not being more diligent on checking the fit of the seat. I guess I just assumed that it would fit as well as it did with my 2000 OB. NOT!!

Convenient that I received my Subaru after-sales questionnaire in the mail today, isn't it?

Hope you're listening Subaru!!

Jay