Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

krzyss

1. Gearing
2. Engine compression ratio

Krzys

rob999

My vote would be to keep the same engines, but offer a "touring" package with lower axle ratios. (Aren't 4.11 gears used in the Legacy XTi?) That's simply way too high to obtain decent fuel economy. Either that or offer a 6-speed manual with a REAL overdrive gear. Either approach would offer lower RPM's at highway speeds, reduced noise and better fuel economy.

The turbo engines have the potential to deliver exceptional highway gas mileage, they're just limited by the gearing.

kyfdx

Almost every one I have seen has the same top gear as the five-speed it replaced.. It would be nice to have one that had a super-tall cruising gear..

rob999

Yes, that's what meant by a REAL overdrive gear. I don't want to shift more during normal around-town driving, I just want a highway gear for cruising at the posted 75 mph speed limit - something that helps with fuel economy.

FWIW - the six-speed trans in the current GTO has somewhere around a .7 overdrive ratio in 6th gear, which helps the LT1 attain the EPA highway rating of 29!

tsy

Does anyone know the 5th gear ratios of the GT vs XT vs 2.5i? I guess I just assumed they were the similar.

Ken- my friend's WRX with a boost gauge is all over the place (no boost, some boost, lots of boost)- the turbo appears to be active all the time (just not overly active unless asked)

Juice- wouldn't that take away from GT/XT sales? I think the base engine should have a little more hp anyway.

Rob- I was thinking since the car is rev-limited to 130 anyway, they should change the gearing so that it would accelerate faster (a la FXT) but give it a tall 5th gear (or preferably 6th) for highway cruising/fuel economy.

Krzys- But is the compression ratio off boost different in the NA engine?

I forgot, the 17" wheels on the GT probably have more rotational inertia than the 16" on the 2.5i, decreasing fuel economy.

tom

locke2c

the GTO has the benefit of ungodly amounts of low-end torque though. in general there is no way a Subaru could have a top cruising gear remotely that tall and use it effectively.

however, I will say that the STi's six gear is just about perfect. it's tall enough that you don't want to use it below 65-70, and if you're going really fast --just imagine you're on the autobahn -- it keeps the RPM range reasonable. I think that type of gearbox ratio would work great in a 250 HP Legacy GT or 3.0R.

~c

ozman62

My opinion, FWIW. Subaru is long overdue for adding variable valve timing/ lift to the base engine. Theoretically, they should be able to achieve higher outputs without too much additional fuel consumption in the normally aspirated engine. Actually the current base engine is pretty good at low revs/ partial throttle, but seems to run out of steam at higher revs. With some smart valve timing variations to add higher outputs for the few times that one needs to venture into those higher rev ranges, fuel consumption might not have to suffer much. I think a fourth engine choice for Subaru is getting a little much for a company of their size. You know, economies of scale and all...
My 2 cents (Canadian)
Owen

zman3

Juice:

I would love to either see an additional engine option or somehow bump up the performance of the base engine. I am not certain I want to pay for the performance of the turbo or H6 motor since I am fortunate enough to own another vehicle that satisfies my performance craving. I own a 98 Outback that I will be looking to replace sometime in the future, depending on whether it starts to nickel and dime me or not. I just can't seem to pull the trigger on another NA 2.5L engine with a 4 speed auto. It can just be too anemic at times. If Subaru could give me a bump in performance either through AVCS or maybe even the 5 speed auto, all while keeping the prices near the current 2.5L prices, I would be sold. I don't care if it is an option or standard across the board as long as it doesn't add more than say $500-$800 to the price.

Karl

tsy

Owen, is your 2 cents Canadian worth less than 2 cents American? ;-)

Some would argue my 2 cents is worthless! ;-)

tom

c_hunter

Yes, most turbo cars will actually show vacuum when cruising on the highway with light throttle, so there is little boost from the turbo (if the pressure was zero, you'd know it is pumping a bit, just enough to offset the manifold vacuum).

What the other guys noted about compression ratio, etc... makes my point about the engine. When an engine is designed for 250HP, there are off-design penalties when you are only using a small fraction of the engine's capability, such as highway cruise.

Craig

locke2c

but the 2.5L turbo does have variable valve timing-- albeit currently only intake cam phasing.

if the factory fuel map was done well, it should get very comparable if not superior highway cruising MPG. it is tuned pretty rich in the upper RPM range under load, but hopefully they leaned it out as much as possible under vacuum / very low boost in the midrange.

~Colin

krzyss

we need to wait for VW to bring turbocharged direct injection gasoline engine (Germans had it in 40s last century - DB605 really nice engine powering Messerschmit Bf109). You can make it as lean as possible or as rich as needed. I would like to see MPG for this machine.

Any plans for Subaru Direct Injection ?

ateixeira

Different ratios? Hmm, interesting. GM does that a lot.

Did you know that the STS comes with THREE different final drive ratios. The AWD model only comes with the middle one.

There is certainly enough power for a 6th gear, me thinks.

Maybe 3 engines is too much. But 168 to 250 is a *huge* jump. I don't think a 180hp base engine would steal turbo sales. It's a totally different level of power.

While we complain, a while back the Lancer made you choose between a 120hp base model or a full-blown EVO!

Talk about a big gap!

Now they have a 160hp model.

-juice

ateixeira

This is an issue for almost everyone. It's all or nothing, you pick either "Fuel Miser" or "Porsche Killer".

Listen up, Subaru, lots of folks want something in between!

-juice

tsy

How about a "fuel miserly Porsche Killer"? ;-)

Then everyone would be happy!

tom

dlydrvr

Just like Volvo with their S60.
Three engines 168,208,257hp.
Make that four engines, the 300hp S60R.
Listen up Subaru, some folks want something above and beyond (and are willing to pay for it).

kyfdx

that a Porsche owner cares what a Subaru will do?

I blew away a 911 on the freeway yesterday.. He might not have known we were racing, though..

ateixeira

Interesting analogy, because Volvo is seen as a competitor and people have been cross shopping them.

But yeah, 168 sounds familiar, no? 208 is about what the light pressure turbo in the Baja makes. 257 is close to the GT. 300 is in the same ballpark as the STi would be (maybe).

So to match Volvo Subaru needs two new options, the light pressure turbo plus the STi.

-juice

tsy

I saw a S60 R yesterday- ooh, lots of fiberglass bodywork. Looks like it got attacked by an aftermarket body shop! Does Subaru have to do that to it's cars to sell them? What happened to tasteful? There's plenty of garrish aftermarket stuff to add on without doing it straight from the dealer. I guess it has to look fast though.

I don't even like the spoiler on my GT, so I'm having it removed next week. I might put on a small tasteful lip spoiler to replace it though.

Juice- I don't think it would take much to push the GT to 300hp (some other sites have dyno'd the engine at 270) which means the STi should be 350?
(Turbo 3.3L H6 please?)

tom

robr2

I saw a S60 R yesterday- ooh, lots of fiberglass bodywork. Looks like it got attacked by an aftermarket body shop!

That must've been the case. The R series Volvos has a different front bumper and some minor aero stuff but it sounds like you saw one that someone might have uh "enhanced".

Go here: http://new.volvocars.com/r/us_index.asp and check out the gallery under "Styling".

Remember - good taste isn't required for vehicle ownership.

tsy

Remember - good taste isn't required for vehicle ownership. LOL! ;-)

You're right, the dealership I saw it outside of must have 'spiced' it up! It certainly makes for a different look though!

tom

ateixeira

tom brings up another good point - the turbo is understated, i.e. actual power is even greater than the stated power.

So basically there is an enormous 100 horsepower gap between the two.

Look at the Honda "FP" kits or the Nismo body kits, a lot of them are a bit over-the-top.

There's money in that stuff, though, so don't be surprised to see SPT offer more of that stuff soon. Some people really want a custom look, and the Legacy GT is pretty stealthy.

-juice

dc_driver

Juice,

  You bring up an excellent point, and one that I am currently struggling with (looking at buying a new car/suv in the near future). I really want the XT or LL Bean Outback, but really struggle with paying 30K for one.. Yet, the base 2.5i is just a little lacking.. So, I am thinking about a completely loaded (leather, cd changer, sunroof, seat heater, etc) 2005 V6 4x4 Mazda Tribute. I can get one for about 23.5K which is about the same as the base 2.5i and a TON cheaper than the XT/Bean. Granted it is not as fast as the Bean/XT but it has 200HP (drove well and was pretty quick), the MPG are similar to an XT, but it does take regular fuel. If the base 2.5 made closer to 180-190HP, I would not think twice about purchasing the 2.5i limited... It would be a little more than the Mazda, but significantly cheaper than the XT/Bean... I was seriously considering a Forester, but this car will primarily be for my wife, and she is not as keen on the styling as me.. But you make a great point... Subaru, please give us a little more HP on the base (and if you dont compromsise MPG and regular fuel, you will have a winner!)

dc_driver

I agree with Tom on this. I have an Altima 3.5 SE and my wife has a Sentra SE, and I cannot stand to drive her car.. Americans want their HP, but they also want decent MPG.. I will not even look at a car anymore unless it has close to 200HP.. I had the unfortunate experience of renting a Pontiac Sunfire recently and can tell you that this car nearly killed me when merging into DC freeway traffic... I am by no means an aggressive driver, but when you have near 300HP trucks, SUV's, and minivans on the road, you have to have pickup when you need it

63corvette

Question: Does anybody have any actual timed figures for the STOCK base 2.5L Outback (manual) to 60 mph, or in the quarter mile. I know this isn't the Z06 forum, but some of you guys seem pretty performance oriented, and I just bought a base 2.5, 5spd Outback, and would like to understand it's real world performance parameters. Why did I buy the base if I am into performance? $17,340.00 brank new, that's why.

Thanks

frankw

My GT Ltd is turning in the low 3Ks while cruising at about 70mph.

My OBXT 5EAT is going 80 at 3000 rpm. What's up?

lumbar

We have very similar "issues." Are you OK with the Tribute's handling and did you give any thought to the 6 sport wagon in the same price range? I'm still leaning to the 2.5i's total package though--plus 28 mpg hway regular gas. I may be a "granny" but I do not find it underpowered--well maybe in comparison to the XT Plan also to at least check out the "redesigned" CRV, although it's a 4 cyl. too.

dc_driver

lumbar,

  After the last few winters here, I would really like AWD, so that rules out the 6 sport wagon for now. I would really prefer the XT or Bean, but for the price of a completly loaded Tribute (23K), it makes it very tempting. My wife insists that the car have an automatic, and I was not impressed with the base 2.5's engine and auto tranny. I thought the Tribute was a good balance between the base Outback and XT. I thought the Tribute handled well, and really liked the interior. I dove the Tribute on some wet and slippery roads and it handled them quite well. The other plus was that the Tribute has the option to upgrade to a Sirius satellite radio. We will definitely need to drive both the Outback and Tribute back to back before purchasing. I drove an 03 CRV awhile back and was not that impressed. To be honest, I have had some bad Honda dealer experiences, and have a hard time giving my money to them...

twrx

We seem to have a lot of discussion about the turbo but not so much about the 2.5 i. I bought a 2.5 i model 3 weeks ago and have been following posts here and am wondering about other owners experiences. The engines discussin: well I can contribute here. I am coming off owning a WRX 5 speed to now owning a Legacy 2.5 i Ltd wagon with the 4 speed sportshift. I had been getting pains in my left foot and after 35 years of driving a manual it was finally time to get an auto. I like having the sportshift option. So it sounds pretty improbable that I'd go to this car when there is a 2.5 turbo model. Simply the mileage, price of gas and price of the car drove me to the regular 2.5 i engine. I am very happy with its performance so far. with the 16" 55 series tires I still have a car that handles nice and this car is not a slug. The first drive away from the dealer in St. Louis involved getting out on I 64 downtown. Very nice car in high speed traffic. Last night I did some passing out on a 2 lane and again I am very happy with how much kick the car has on the highway.

Now the further good news: at only 1300 miles I'm getting 29 mpg on the highway. I can hardly wait to see what kind of mileage I will get when it gets fully broken in.

Now for a couple of glitches:

1. Last week both my ACC and CD shut down. No power, no display, no nothing. I got into the fuse box and started pulling all the relevant fuses but they were all OK. After replacing them I started the car up and both came back on. Neither has failed again so far. The blade fuses were plenty tight so I hope I don't have some loose wires somewhere. Anyway it has not repeated so far. Has this happened to anyone else?

2. The cruise control does strange things on hills. When you are descending the car is constantly on and off throttle. Not the tranny but the engine. It cuts in and out. Is this a design flaw are do I have a problem?

TWRX

c_hunter

Other people on the Legacy GT website have reported the same issue with the radio and CC cutting out at least once (don't think any people have reported it twice). I have not seen it yet on my XT, but it appears to be a pretty widespread electrical gremlin (and not a good sign if you ask me).

Cruise sounds like a problem, but I honestly can't remember the last time I went down an appreciable hill with cruise on in the last 5-6 years, so I am not even a reliable person to comment. I did use cruise on a trip a couple weeks ago, but didn't have it on when we got into the mountains. On fairly flat highways or those with mild inclines, it has been fine so far.

Craig

tsy

frank, the OB tires have a larger diameter than the GT, and I don't know if they have the same tranny gearing.

tom

wrxrallyer

Hey all,

Test drove an OXT AT yesterday, and noticed a couple of things. The first time i did, it was at a different dealership and the salesman rode with me. Basically just drove up the road to check the storage lot for a color combo. Pretty boring ride, although i was somewhat impressed that it was almost as quick as my WRX.

Anyway, was at my regular dealer yesterday and took another one out, this time without the salesman! First thing i noticed was the loud whooshing when the turbo kicked in! Is that normal? Car only had 70 miles on it, so not sure if that had anything to do with it. It ran fine, i just didn't recall it being so loud the last time i drove one, and my WRX certainly isn't as loud. Other thing i noticed was that, after playing with the sportshift buttons, i pulled away from a light a bit aggressively, and it got to the redline before it shifted, and even then it was confused, jumping back and forth between 1st & 2nd, until i backed off and upshifted. Now, i know one is not supposed to go over 4k RPM before it's broken in, but i figured it was a test drive vehicle and knew i wasn't going to be mine (wrong color combo!) My apologies in advance to it's future owner!! Also didn't notice the ACC doing anything too bizarre, but then again, i was a bit more concerned with the driving aspect.

Still love the car and am seriously contemplating getting one, if things fall into place. However, the tranny behavior and the turbo whoosh was a bit of a concern. Is that normal, or did i get a funky car? I asked the salesman, but he said it was because the car hadn't been prepped yet, which doesn't necessarily make me feel any more comfortable...

Thanks, all!
Oliver

priggly

Does anyone know if noise/vibration/harshness have been reduced in the '05 model compared to the '04? Has the acceleration been improved and anyone have a 0-60 time? Any known issues with the six cylinder engine?

Thanks.

turbooutback

Buying an XT Outback (manual) and considering the short shift kit and/or MOMO shift knob. Anyone know if the short shift kit already comes with a MOMO knob or is it extra? Also, does the MOMO knob twist on or does it use a small screw like most MOMO knobs do? Thanks...

c_hunter

The Momo knob threads directly onto the shifter shaft (it is specially made for Subaru and even has a barb to hold up the shifter boot). The ones you are talking about (with the set screw) are the generic aftermarket Momo knobs.

Momo knob and ST shifter are separate options, though you could certainly order both together.

Craig

c_hunter

Does anyone know if noise/vibration/harshness have been reduced in the '05 model compared to the '04? Has the acceleration been improved and anyone have a 0-60 time? Any known issues with the six cylinder engine?

Yes, the 05 models are about a zillion times better for NVH (even the "base" 05 2.5i models are better than my 02 "high end" LL Bean was).

If you get an XT, it's insanely fast (0-60 in the low 6 sec range with 5MT and high 6 sec range with 5EAT). The H6 models are pretty fast too.

No issues with any of the 05 engines thus far.

Craig

c_hunter

I don't notice much loud whooshing -- are you sure it was the turbo?? I can barely even hear the turbo whine. However, the AC and climate control system make a whoosh once and a while -- that is probably what you heard, especially if it was under full throttle.

Not sure about the tranny behavior. If you had it in manual mode and were using the +/- buttons, then it will not shift until you shift. So if you were bouncing off the rev limiter, it probably was flashing you a message, but it would have been totally up to you to do the upshift. I am guessing you ran into odd behavior because you probably didn't know how the 5EAT works. It actually has 4 modes of operation, and takes some studying to undertsand them. The modes are:

1) lever to the right, don't touch any buttons, this is the normal "auto" mode

2) lever to the right, and you touch the +/- buttons on the wheel. This will give you temporary manual control but will revert back to auto.

3) lever to the left, don't touch any buttons or push the lever up/down, this is "sport mode". Transmission shifts for you, but does so more agressively (I use this most of the time).

4) lever to the left, use the +/- buttons or push the lever up/down. This is full manual mode, where you are in total control. The car will let you bounce off the rev limiter all day if you want.

wrxrallyer

Nope, pretty sure it was the turbo. I have as '02 WRX, and i have to listen for the turbo. This one was right about when i hit 3k, and i'd hear the 'whoosh' (for lack of a better term), then it would fade away. Even pulled into a parking lot to see if something came loose or if plastic bag got caught in the intake, or something weird like that.

Ah, i see said the grasshopper! I had been shifting, but had assumed the tranny would take over near the redline. So you have to flip the lever to the right to get out of manual mode, eh?? Lesson learned, and my sincere apologies to whoever buys the White OXT from Colonial in Danbury, CT!!! Didn't mean to abuse it like that!!

Guess i'll just have to go suffer through another test drive, to see if the sound was just that car or in my brain!! :-))

Thanks again!
Oliver

kens

Oliver,

I own a 05 GT wagon and it's hard to hear the turbo spool in my vehicle as well. Only if I have the stereo off and I'm accelerating up a hill can I faintly hear the turbo.

Other than you having above average hearing, it could be that the vehicle you test drove had something out of whack. Try test driving others and see if you still hear the same.

Ken

michael2

My wife scrapped one of my rims while parking, does anyone know if their is an online site I can where I purchase a new one, or must I go through my dealer. The only description of the wheel I can find is 17x7, 5 spoke silver finish, found it listed in the owners manual as 17x7JJ.

Also, is the standarad tire on the new GT a Potenza RE92, a tire dealer said it's a Potenza RE92A.I'm shopping for a full size spare.

I'd appreciate any feedback anyone can offer.

c_hunter

Yes, it's a RE-92A. TireRack sells them -- punch in the car and it will give you all the details.

For the replacement wheel, try any one of the online parts vendors, like Liberty Subaru in NJ, which would be close to you to minimize shipping costs. Liberty knocks about 20% off the retail price, and I normally get all my parts and accessories from them.

As I recall, the wheels are $275 at full retail.

Craig

automatic

I have one that I did not use. This is for the free 3 yr/36K mile maintenance on an 05 Outback or Legacy. Appears to be redeemable within 60 days of purchase date (purchase date not later than 30 Sep, so it's no longer good for a current shoppers). Can't have accrued more than 7500 miles on the car by the time you redeem the certificate. Please post a response if you are interested and I will contact you for your address via your Edmunds email profile.

surfaceplate

Picked up my outback v.d.c. friday after two and a half month wait.No complaints so far.Been reading just about every posting on this site while i waited for the subaru. I'd like to drive it down south next week but haven't really broke it in yet. Do new vehicles today really need babying for the first say 1000 miles.

c_hunter

Congrats on the new VDC!

Worst thing you can do on a green engine is to drive it at a constant rpm range for extended periods of time. As long as you can vary the engine speed from 2000-4000rpm on your trip, you should be OK. If, however, you will be driving on the highway for hours at a time, that would probably be bad.

Basically, follow the break-in guidelines in the manual, they are pretty clear on the recommended procedure.

Craig

babe915

noticed on the option list the filtration system
for the 05 outback, this to me may just be the cabin air filter like in other cars but 85 bucks
for it? has anyone ordered this option.

mesh

I totally agree. I was expecting to see the Forester XT engine with a 5spd AT in the '05 Outback, and was suprised to see so much more power and cost added to the OBXT. I want a spacious cargo hauler with ample power, not a drag racing gas guzzler. The 2.5i is adequate at sea level, but loses it at altitude, but the XT is over kill for me. I would like to see 180-190hp as the base for the outback to separate it more from Legacys and Foresters.

beanboy

Man, I wish that coupon offer was extended like the low financing was...booo!

-B

PS Picking up the GT tomorrow.

gxb159

I have noticed when coming down the mountains with CC on, the car is on and off the throttle constantly. This makes the car jerk so much that my wife wakes up.

Anyone have this issue and has it been fixed?

smokeybaer

I could use a coupon if you or anyone has one available. Am getting close to the milage limit but I purchased on Aug 31.

automatic

Your email is private, so I don't have a way to contact you for your address. I can send asap if I can get your address. Thanks.