Mercedes-Benz E-Class Maintenance and Repair

dmac8

You point out that Mercedes manufacturing vilume is way up, and that is definitely part of the equation. I don't think Honda and Toyota products hold the advantage over GM that they once did, but the Acura and Lexus divisions would appear to still be quite superior.

The problem for MB is that the Japanese have raised the bar in the so called luxury bracket and MB may not be able to compete on brand image alone. However, their achievments in that regard, thus far, are remarkable.

I realize a lot of individual experience is only anecdotal, but my memories of purchasing a new 240d are very satisfying. Previous to that, I'd owned a couple of Volvos, VW's and assorted domestics. When I took the 240 back for its first oil change and, the dealer asked me for a list of service issues, I didn't have any.

That was a novel experience for me with a new car, and I didn't have any problems all of the time I owned it. That cemented MB in my mind as a quality product, and furthered the image of luxury I sought from the 3 pointed star.

Here in southern California, all varieties of Mercedes have become quite commonplace. In actual fact, if you want to drive something relatively exclusive, a Grand Marquis might be a good choice!

But with their production volume rising and the exclusivity dimming, MB is going to have to work hard to get people to shell out $80k for a quirky S series, when the staid Lexus could be had for a lot less.

Mr_Shiftright

My theory is that the dealer network and technical training organization of MB is slipping.

Just looking at zueslewis' review on the car that needed 7 NAV systems installed only re-inforces this belief of mine. It is extremely unlikely---no, just about impossible---that 7 nav systems could be bad out of the box.

Until you or I know the failure rate per 100 of any Mercedes component we cannot say with any certainty whatsoever that the quality is below average. We have no basis for that statement unless we have a large statistical base for such an assumption. And of course we have to separate those reports of component failure from the installation or repair interference from human hands at the dealership.

This type of statistic, for instance, allowed me to say with some confidence that Saab head gaskets really sucked for a while there, because I knew that the failure rate was about 8% (that is 8 of 100 Saabs were pretty much guaranteed to blow a head gasket in their lifetimes).

But you hear of one Benz needing 7 NAV systems--well, a most distressing tale, but certainly no basis for a conclusion except the conclusion that a certain dealer doesn't know what he's doing OR that factory techs are not backing him up very well.

NOW CR is a bit better, because these are real people complaining about real things, and obviously CR gets a larger number of gross MB complaints than Lexus complaints.

What that means exactly is up for grabs, as pointed out earlier.

Pumping up volume is more of a stress on dealer service and training than on actual quality control. It's much easier for the factory to control what it does at home than what happens at dealerships.

And on top of all this, you have a near-ridiculous complexity level of electronics in cars, working in a very hostile environment.

I don't think ANY car company's reliability record is going to improve from this point in time.

r1_97

"R1_97: Bad boy! You are supposed to change a battery at 4 years"

Thanks for informing me about the need to replace the battery every 4 years. I was unaware. Neither the sales person nor the service dept. told me about this. I assumed wrongly that the service dept. would advise me in the same manner as for worn tires, brakes, low fluids etc. Isn't this service supposed to be covered by the so-called inspections included in the A and B expensive oil change services?

Notwithstanding the above, I still think the hi tech wizards at MB could figure a way to implement a warning system for impending battery failure. Is such a system available on cars of other manufacturers?

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's tricky. You have to monitor the battery under LOAD....any lame battery can light up an LED or a flashlight bulb or push a needle into the green on a voltmeter. What the gauge would have to predict is what a battery *might* do when asked for 250 amps--it would have to be load-tested right in the car, which would stress it.

Not to make light of it, but you already have a load tester in your car--it's called the starter motor. If your car starts to crank more slowly, that's a good sign of a laboring battery.

It should say right on your battery when the warranty is up. That's usually as good an indicator as any that the battery is nearly done---especially with the demands put upon it by a modern car.

We can now await the anecdote about someone keeping their battery in their car for 9 years, but you know that's the extreme end of the bell curve, not what happens most of the time to most of the people.

I have a Benz diesel which requires an extra heavy duty battery. So I'm paying about $25 a year just for batteries, but my car starts first time every time.

haspelbein

..to replace my 7-year-old battery in my E-Class.
However, it has been telling me that for the last 1.5 years. So far, I haven't listened.

Other than testing the battery under load, I'd still say the battery impedance sampling (for lead-acid batteries) would be a very good way to predict battery life.

diccone

On my way home after picking up my 2003 E320 the SRS light came on and it should be brought back to the service shop. Took it to the shop the following morning and I was told that a certain module is not compatible with the computer software and was replaced, any similar problems? how come this problem is not corrected prior to delivery? It is a shame for an expensive car.
Another problem, I could not fill up the gas tank because of back pressure in the tank, notified the dealer and took them week and a half to get back to me with the help of MB service rep.MBUSA should stand behind the good name and not the expensive but unreliable automobiles.

rubicon52

puzzle me. You contend that a "below average" reliability rating may not be valid for MB because half of all reported problems are not really the fault of the car. Even if we accept this premise it changes nothing! Say we start out with 100 problems for MB and 50 problems for Lexus. If we assume that half the reported problems are not the car's fault, we're now at 50 problems for MB and 25 problems for Lexus. MB had twice the number of problems as Lexus before and they have twice the number of problems now. The only way this premise improves MB's standing is if you assume that MB owners are reporting lots of non problems, but other owners are not. That would be silly.

Here's how I look at it. There are several types of sources of reliability data:

1. Manufacturer's data - large sample and detailed.

2. CR, JD Power - large sample, not much detail.

3. The "Knowledgable Person". This is someone like Zueslewis. Medium sample size, detailed.

4. Personal experience. This is you and me and other posters. Small sample size, detailed.

Unfortunately, we have to discount the manufacturers data because we don't have access to it. That's leaves 3 other sources.

Myself and others have advised you to look at the large number of former MB owners posting on Edmunds that have had many problems with MB and have switched to Lexus and are happy. Compare to the number of former Lexus owners who have gone to MB and experiencing fewer problems with MB. I'm sure you'll get a lopsided count. If you're not convinced, I'm willing to take a few hours and do the count. I'll cite topic and post # and summarize the numbers.

My point is that if you take the 3 types of data sources available to us THEY ALL AGREE! It is not a matter of JD Power saying that Lexus are troublesome and CR saying that MB are troublesome. All these data sources agree that MB is significantly less reliable than Lexus and many other makes.

Mr_Shiftright

But that's not what they say...that's what you want them to say. What they say is that more people complained to CR and to Zues about Mercedes than they did about Lexus.

This does not even remotely "prove" that Mercedes is less reliable, or that people are switching from Mercedes to Lexus any more than they switch from Lexus to Mercedes.

Zueslewis' sample is not "medium" it is relatively small. Mercedes makes over 600,000 vehicles a year. Zueslewis is "in the trenches" as I am. We see a small part of the war, like the doctor in the Emergency room. We could not deduce the health of the community from what we see in ER.

Going to CR or to people like me or Zues for drawing decisive conclusions is like going to the media for conclusions about crime. If you watched TV all day, you'd think crime was much much worse than it actually is.

My point is always the same but I'll run 'em past you again:

1. Mercedes reliability reports have never been any better than they are now. Mercedes is not "slipping" because it was never "up there".

2. If you culled out customer fault (quite a few might qualify in Town Hall postings, unbeknownst to the poster who feels wronged but really isn't), and dealer error, you end up with Mercedes being no better or worse than the vast majority of cars produced today.

This is my contention anyway.

It's like the "full moon theory" that people go more psycho when the moon is full. Most likely, it's just that people are watching other people more carefully during the full moon and reporting more incidents. Same with reliability reports. There is more monitoring going on than before.

Some poor person shoplifts, nobody knows or cares. Wynona Ryder shoplifts, its in all the papers. Benz burns out a bulb, it's a big deal. Hyundai dumps its tranny, that's not news.

sddlw

I just can't go along with your contention Shifty.

I'm not saying that benz are not great cars. The E class is one of my absolute favorites and offers a unique driving experience. The blend of solid construction, high speed handling, fit and finish are not seen on that many cars. The styling is exceptional and I think is going to withstand the test of time and look good 20 years from now. And I really want one. I really find it hard to see how MB will continue to upgrade this car ........... except for one attribute. Component and systems reliability.

I think it is too early to know what will happen with the new 2003 model, but the last couple of models do have enough histories that I'm going to assume it will follow in it;s predessesor's footsteps. I'm not referring to a bad light bulb or socket or a little electrical glitch that causes the car to be brought in for a minor correction. I'm talking big honking $$ parts that are not very hi tech. In my personal experience, head gaskets and radiators, shocks and struts, AC systems, etc. Failures between 30k and 70K miles. Repair bills that were averaging more than $2,500 per year and this was not at the dealer but at an independent. My gosh, it would have been another 50% higher still at the dealer. You had mentioned the incredibly solid feel of even ancient old benzes. I had planed on keeping this benz long enough to experience that, but soon realized how much it was going to cost me in repairs to keep the car that long.

Your argument that MB is no worse than many other cars is absolutely true. I'm thinking Jaguar, BMW, Audi, RR. I'm also thinking many US made cars. But just because other car manufacturers are still building automobiles with inferior parts doesn't justify it. The fact is that there is a new standard of reliability. I think that whether or not Lexus gives the same driving experience as MB is beside the point. The point is, overall, their reliability ratings are higher. And it is also true that Toyota has figured out how to build that reliability into it's cars so well that it offers this level of reliability at it's entry level vehicles.

The question then becomes, if Toyota can do this for their cars that are arguably inferior to MB .... when is MB going to start offering this level of reliability to it's supposedly superior cars? Maybe they don't need to. Certainly MB sales are at an all time high. But my personal experience lead me to purchase Lexus last time around, and has lead me into a protracted debate with myself as to whether I want to sacrifice the excellent(but not perfect)reliability I am experiencing now for the MB driving experience I crave in my next purchase.

q45man

Impedence is a term used exclusively with alternating current and a battery is direct current device!
A batteries voltage [measured to 0.01 volts] vs ambient temperature curve will tell you all you need to know.

As US largest independent repairer [2 locations 2,700 clients in data base] of Lexus we get a lot of insight and I can assure you that as the brand has changed [chasing innovation/ handling/ more performance] the quality has declined [suspension things that use to last 100-200k] were redesigned [to fail earlier] they were lightened to reduce weight or stressed more to improve performance.
The years 94-96 were the sweet spot same with Infiniti and so I hear from my MB technican friends the same story.
Actually we have never had a LS take more than 8 hours to repair if we had the parts in stock....except changing a heater core. The starter is a dog as is some AC work.
[in 6 years] We have never changed a LS400 transmission or engine even on 250-300,000 mile 1990 cars nor a drive shaft or differential [many I6 and V6 engines/trannies in the lesser models].

q45man

By the way an LS400 or LS430 can be stiffened up to exceed MB [and meet BMW] with springs, shocks, larger sway bars and more aggressive performance tires. Plus an alignment setting the camber to more negative

The one thing it lacks is a limited slip differential which can be added.
We have a few customers who mod them for performance but the 4.0/4.3 engine is a little weak compared to the 5.0 MB.

But I hear the new LS500 is just around the corner. Notice MB has already bumped up to 5.5.

dmac8

Mr. S, I think I must harbor the notion that the 123 bodied vehicles were very reliable, at least in their diesel iterations. When I acquired an 87 300d, I thought the quality had slipped, and, it seemed I visited the dealer more frequently for quality related issues.

Never having owned one, I'd take your word for it that the larger gas powered cars are/ were more finicky, but if this continues to be true, it poses a problem for MB.

The 3 pointed star is such a potent marque, that many people will overlook the foibles of the car just to gaze at it over the headlights, but, if MB doesn't make that symbol synonymous with quality and reliability, many more MB owners will become Lexus owners, than the reverse.

I think the main reason Daimler bought Chrysler was to shake up the sclerotic nature of German management, and eliminate its shortcomings such as rigid hierarchical structures and a "how dare you question us mentality". I think though, they only succeeded in making Chrysler more like themselves.

I still want an old 240 or 300D, because they do drive like 2 or 3 year old cars. Will their present versions hold up as well?

r1_97

I started this thread and maybe this will finish it.

First, I agree with SDDW that if Toyota can build reliability, than MB should be able to also. I don't think that drivability (fun to drive) and reliability must be mutually exclusive.

As the battery in my E320 is buried under the back seat and thus inconvenient to check, it should be monitored by some light or message to warn of impending failure. I do not accept that this is not feasable. My battery suddenly died without warning - no slow starting or other indication. Getting towed to the dealer is a royal pain in the [non-permissible content removed].

I received conflicting advise from the service dept. and our host here. Service dept said they check the battery on their "B" service and add water or whatever if needed. Host tells us that no need to check periodically but rather the battery is a throw away after 4 years.

Bottom line: I had a 93 Lexus for 5 years with -0-problems. I mean nothing but oil changes and new tires and brakes. I've had 2 e-320s since then and have had several problems including a transmission replacement after about 25k miles. I [non-permissible content removed] and moan but will continue to stick with the E model, however my margin of tolerance is wearing thin.

haspelbein

Q45 ... yes, impedance is the electrical resistance to alternating current. You apply a regulated AC voltage to a DC lead-acid battery and measure the impedance .
This method is commonly used for large arrays of uninterrupted powersupply batteries, as the impedance goes up even slightly before the voltage drops in a faulty battery, giving you a little bit more of a lead time until failure, rather than relying on voltage alone.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, all very interesting comments, thank you, especially as they attempt to explore the various shades of meaning of the word "quality". Commendable effort everyone!

I think any car with a battery in the back seat should have the battery rotated out on a periodic basis for that very reason, that it is so inaccessible to scrutiny...also, it's a long trip to the starter motor, don't forget that.

I really don't know how feasible an onboard battery tester is. I would have thought this would have been implemented a long time ago. But we don't have differential temperature gauges either, although we could, easily. So maybe it is deemed simply off the radar screen for most consumers. Give 'em a red light and forget it. You give a consumer numbers and they'll misinterpret them. Look how the number 250 on a water temperature gauge quickly became "H" or "hot" when people looked at the needle going past 212 and they freaked. (Nobody told them that radiator pressure raises the boiling point).

haspelbein

I think any car with a battery [...] that it is so inaccessible to scrutiny...

On a side note. The battery in the E-Class is actually quite easy to get to. The rear seat bench in the W210 has a quick release on each side. I'd bet anybody a beer that I'd have clear look at the battery within 20-30 seconds from opening a rear door. (It doesn't take any tools, either.)

As far as gauges are concerned: I'm also troubled by the dumbing down of gauges. The E-Class takes an interesting approach about 'dumbing down' the temperature gauge. Even in the US it's in degrees Celsius, not Fahrenheit.
Another little 'easter egg' is in the climate control: Press the 'Rest' button for more than 10 seconds with the engine running, and you'll get the indoor temperature in degrees Celsius. (Along with the self test return code of the climate control software.)

zueslewis

I am shoced at one posters comments about being angry that no one told him to replace his battery. I've never believed that a battery would last 4-5-6 years. Some do, I know, but I don't want to be on a family outing to Tibuktu when I find out I should have replaced it.

There needs to be a wising up and a level of common sense that allows us to be responsible for ourselves and our actions. After 3-4 years, if you see a battery on sale, buy it and put it in.

Sheesh. The next thing you know, people will be suing Mickey Ds because they didn't know that greasy cheeseburgers, fatty french fries and milkshakes could make you fat. What? They already have? Give me a break.

(On that note, you'll notice no one is suing Baskin-Robbins because ice cream made them fat!)

jander111

I heard that one. If they win, next I'm going to sue MB for not making the S500 affordable to me. -- talking about shameless pursuit of wealth.

zueslewis

I'm held to sub-$100,000 wages and I want two Hummers and an AMG SL500 - I'm suing.

haspelbein

...around the car is too much to check the battery, why not lock the hood with a special tool, so that only the dealer can open it ? That way, the consumer is absolved from any responsibility. No matter what happens, it's always the dealer's or manufacturer's fault.

Mr_Shiftright

Don't laugh, Haspelbein, car technology is definitely heading toward the "sealed unit" idea, and Benz is as much behind it as anyone. Your car will one day be no more consumer servicable that your television or your home heating unit.

rubicon52

Was a link in one of the other forums to a 11/21/02 press release showing the results of the latest JD Power Dependability Study which reports on the problems of 5 year old cars. Lexus, as usual, was on top. The release stated that a 5 year old 1998 Lexus has fewer problems than the average 1998 car had WHEN IT WAS NEW (159 problems/per 100 cars vs. 176 problems/per 100 cars). The three European makes with above average dependability were Porsche, BMW, and Jaguar. Mercedes was not in the above average group (don't exactly know where it was). Never thought I'd see the day when a Jaguar was more dependable than a Mercedes, but it's here.

stedon

I am looking at the discussion because my wife has a C320 and I'm considering the new E. A little concerned about reliability, but I noticed the post about the inability to fill the fuel tank. Just got the C320 back and the service slip (all warranty work) talked about replacing a faulty fuel gauge sensor. They indicated that the gauge didn't read "Full" after filling. The real problem was the car wouldn't hold enough gas, although maybe when it said it was nearly empty it really wasn't. Any thoughts. They also couldn't replicate an annoying ticking sound from under the car while driving and warm. Maybe the service dept. isn't good. Any thoughts.

r1_97

Our '01E320 had the same problem. Dealer made a quick fix which helped about 90%. Still reads a tad below full after filling up.

sddlw

Jaguar has improved to Ford dependability standards over the last several years.

With as much critisim as I heap on MB, defining quality by battery life or problems with the fuel gauge doesn't seem fair to me. And there will always be some idiosyncrasies with cars ... even the Japanese cars. My Lexus is very prone to rotor warpage with the OEM ceramic brake pads. What are you gonna do? Doesn't mean the car is a bad car. It just means that that particular system could be better designed or that the engineers decided occasional warpage is acceptable in order to give most people 50K miles between brake jobs because the ceramic pads last longer and make less brake dust. I'm not willing to say the E class car is a bad car because of a few opportunities for improvement.

My personal E-class experience was more along the lines of catastrophic failure of rather mundane but very critical systems. Still every manufacturer is going to have the occasional bad car and perfect car. And in my 3MB experience, the other two cars, while costing more to maintain than a Toyota, were within my personal tolerance. Too bad we can't get the numbers by specific failre or repair.

On a sighlty different note: Perhaps the sealed unit concept is still somewhere off in the future, but auto manufacturers seem to have to be forced to reveal the diagnostic codes even today, making it very difficult for the independent operator. Thank goodness they are being forced to provide the codes after the car is out of warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, you see, nobody expects Jaguar to be perfect. They score average and everyone treats it like the Second Coming.

If you are a drunk and you sober up and start working in a shoe store, everyone calls it a miracle. If you were a college professor or engineer and you quit to sell shoes they'd call it a tragedy.

rubicon52

But Jaguar has actually surpassed MB in dependability so they're both not selling shoes. More like Jaguar is selling shoes and MB is working in the sewer.

What Ford did for Jaguar was to simply implement modern manufacturing methods. I worked in England for 4 years and it was hard to believe how antiquated British industry really is. When Ford bought in the 80s, Jaguar was using a 1950s production line. Morgans are produced today using a wooden frame (ash). With the sale of Rover and Rolls to the Germans (which really irked the Brits), the largest British owned car manufacturer is Reliant. Their main product is a 3 wheeled plastic bodied car called the Robin. It has about 40 HP and requires only a motocycle license. Reliant is in and out of bankruptcy. I think the whole company is worth around $600k.

haspelbein

...you know how to:

a) Replace the bulbs in the foglamps.
b) Replace all exterior lights.
c) Interpret the dreaded 'lamp defective' message, use a multimeter to find troublespots and remove oxydation from contacts.
d) Replace a rear window regulator.
e) Pull the instrument cluster and center console in search for defective lamps.
f) Know what type of clutch holder it takes to remove your particular fan clutch.
g) Can recite all locations in a 30-miles-radius from your home that will actually sell the recommended Mobil 1 0w40.
h) Know how to fight back your tears while forking over $1000 for replacement Xenons, after the plexiglass of the old ones has dulled.
i) Know where the wheel mounting tool is located and how to use it.

Oh, the joy ...

Mr_Shiftright

Hahaha...my '80 Benz does the same things. Always burning out bulbs and yep, I repalced a window regulator recently! Very funny. Some things don't change.

Wipers: -- Doesn't it make you want to scream with all these useless gadgets?

British Auto Industry -- more than one cynic has said that it might have been better if the Germans had destroyed all of Britain's and America's auto plants to the same extent that the British and Americans destroyed all of Germany's. That way, the Brits could have started from scratch again like the Germans had to, with more modern plants and machinery.

Of course this is a rather simplistic view of a tragic situation, but the point is well made nonetheless.

There is a funny story which may be true and may not, that after the Brits won Lemans with the Bentley (ah, my mind is fading...was it 1931?), that the Germans hired some spies to find out the secret. Somehow they managed to buy, through an intermediary, one of the old race cars (a common practice, to sell or junk last year's models and build new ones for the new season), and when they took it apart, they were amazed to see nothing new whatsoever in the way of technology. All it was was the clever use of old technology.

I think the Americans inherited this clever use of old tech from the 50s through the 80s, while the Germans and Japanese went merrily into super high tech.

Hearing all these stories of mysterious electronic failures makes me wonder if they aren't going further than they need to.

Just because we CAN build rain-sensing windshield wipers, do we really need to have them?

Benz used to be known (like Packard was) for solid sensible engineering. I'd hate to see these cars become show-boats for high tech drivel.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the compasses are now incorporated into the on-board trip computers on many cars, and show up as only a graphic display. The "normal" mechanical compasses don't seem to work very well in cars.

haspelbein

I don't know if you ever have been in an E-Class taxi in Europe. It uses the rear-view mirror to directionally project the fare. The driver only sees traffic, but the guest on the rear bench can see the current fare status. All wireless communications are integrated into the dashboard. One of the most tidy taxi interiors I've ever seen.

A simple compass should clearly be within reach.

bobyngbld

Considering buying a 1990 E300 4 Matic, what is the reliability like? Frequency of visits for repair, cost of repair, additional problem because of 4Matic, is the 4Matic effective in ice and snow? pick up seems slow...

chibi1

Regarding the issue of weighing different problem types (e.g. a light bulb vs. transmission failure), the most relevant statement I found on the website is "The study monitors the number and type of problems owners have with their four- to five-year-old vehicles and covers 137 specific problem areas in nine categories."-2002 Vehicle Dependability Index (VDI) Study Summary

In my opinion, the manufacturers' commissioning of J.D. Power for these studies demonstrates their validity.

tso2001

so it's true, not just my brother's 2yr-old E320 is having nagging problems. His MB has been to the shop more times then my 9yr-old Miata + 5yr-old Accord + 2yr-old MDX COMBINED! Nothing I mean not a single thing broke in those 3 cars. The Miata and Accord each has been to the dealer once to have the 60K miles checkup done, that's it. My wife really likes the new MB C class, she thinks it's the cutest thing. I don't disagree but just don't want to spend all that time at MB dealer to have things fixed; so I'm working real hard to pursuade her not to get one. I have an idea....let's MB build the car body but use Acura/Lexus's components and engineering know-how.

vin4

Does anyone have the step by step procedure for replacing the heater/ac blower fan "motor" on my 1987 300E? Where can I acquire printed info without purchasing an entire MB repair manual?

Mr_Shiftright

Why don't you want the manual? It's really good to have. Mine has paid for itself many times over. There's nothing out there nearly as good as the factory manual if you are a do it yourselfer.

haspelbein

Got the dreaded 'lamp defective' message again, and sure enough, a parking light/high beam combination light was out. I drove to the MB dealership to buy a new light. As soon as I entered the lot, the light came back on. Hmmm...

I think will probably replace the light and clean the contacts anyhow. Makes me wonder if it may be more effective to replace all lights as part of the regular maintenance and spare me this aggravation. It would be a kind of pricey, though.

jxthomas

I have a E320 (Year 2000) with 38K miles. In the past three years, the dealer had to fix BAS/ESP malfunction THREE times. I also had to repair SRS malfunction THREE times. The warranty will run out in 12 months. Occasionally, the 'light out' message will show up and then, disappear. I would like to write to someone in MB. The dealer gave me the 800 number...couldn't give me a name and address. What is the best way to deal with this situation? Anyone with similar experiences?

kmosca

I purchased a new 2003 E500 in October, and have been in for service five times for a total of eleven days. The check engine light came on about ten days after purchase. Since then the
SRS system failure light has come on twice, and the TelAid defective light came on last week, sending me back to the dealer for the sixth time today. The CD player was replaced as defective, and the fancy electronic keys don't always work, even after being replaced. The audio system wouldn't come on for one entire day, and appeared to be a system boot problem (garbled dash). It seems this car has computer or software related problems. At least one of the service visits included "flashing" the computer module. It has also had the throttle actuator and central gateway replaced due to an acceleration problem. This car is over-gadgetized, and I'd hate to be the owner a few years from now when things really start going wrong.

zueslewis

It's a bummer.

tmakogon

I heard that a new brakes-by-wire system is being introduced in the newer models. I presume that brakes will be controlled by a standalone processor. Otherwise is that safe with the number of computer failures described in posts above?

Regards,
Taras

haspelbein

...you can rely on the hydraulic backup system.

alcan

Delphi has several brake-by-wire systems developed and in production, including the Galileo system which uses front only hydraulic backup:

http://www.delphi.com/pdf/chassispdfs/Galileo.pdf

http://www.delphi.com/pdf/chassispdfs/BR_ElecCalipers.pdf

http://www.delphi.com/pdf/chassispdfs/BR_ElecDrum.pdf

ray_h71

I found myself in the position of having to involuntarily replace my previous car. I've followed these E-Class reliability discussions for several months. I could never afford the price of admission to the semi-exclusive club of Mercedes-Benz ownership, but I have been able to duplicate many Mercedes-Benz service issues to some degree by purchasing a Hyundai Sonata. With nearly equal cabin volume (The Sonata's a bit larger inside at 100 cu. ft. vs. 97 cu. ft. for the E-Class), in my new Sonata, random defects popping up like gophers on amphetimines, and the knowledge that DaimlerChrysler owns a 10% equity stake in Hyundai, I can at least enjoy, if only in some small way, the pride inherent in Mercedes-Benz ownership. I've read various reports that when Hyundai designed their own engines and transmissions after Mercedes-Benz' equity acquisition, they appraoched DaimlerChrysler for help in ironing out a few niggling problems. With that accomplished, I can only hope that the company will also request DaimlerChrysler's electrical systems and engine management expertise to draw product reliability closer to the fold. Of course there are other, less tangible benefits all of us share. When a Mercedes-Benz rolls down the boulevard, people often point and gaze in quiet admiration. The situation is somewhat similar, but with the following additional difference for Hyundai owners: substitute "derisive laughter" for "quiet admiration". (Hmmm, the "pride" of Hyundai ownership?..)

jrosasmc

All this talk about Mercedes-Benz's problems with quality/reliability mirrors those of Volvo, which can, in some aspects, be considered the Swedish Benz. If you look at the Volvos from the '70s and '80s, you'll see that they have the same little pesky problems that Benzes were known for; I'm sure Mr. Shiftright can elaborate further. But just like its German counterpart, the Swedish car has bulletproof engines and drivetrains; however, it has never been tops in reliability, as far as I've seen from Consumer Reports and talking to various Volvo owners. While it has made great strides in quality over the past decade or so, it still can't match that of, say, Lexus or Acura.

By the way, does anybody own, or owned, a Volvo from the '90s and experienced the same niggling problems found on your Mercedes products? I have (and love) a '93 850, but I am forever chasing these gremlins and defects. These Volvos sure have some soul, though.

maurcedes

I finally decided to sell my 95 E320 wagon when premium fuel hit $1.85, but that was not all of it. The other consideration was that one more $1000 repair bill would cover a years worth of diesel fuel in the Jetta I've ordered. And I've seen those repair bills frequently (171,000 miles). And yet, I love the car. I like the fact that I CAN fix all those things that go wrong. That I can buy a seat rebuild kit when the seats un-spring. That the motor is still strong, smooth and powerful on the on-ramps. I get a kick out of the fact that it has line-levels to aim the headlights (German obsessiveness). The car doesn't rattle, has no drafts, tracks fine, and looks great. I could keep it forever if I wanted to. Take a look at a Ford or Subaru (or Lexus?)with 171,000 miles on it. Do you want to drive THAT?

Now, I have followed this discussion on the annoying issues that seem to plague the newer Benz's. That will be something I'll have to look at 2 or 5 years down the road when the price of gas stabilizes again and I buy another 5-year old Mercedes.

ray_h71

maurcedes, have you ever owned a diesel engined automobile? Here in southern California the price of diesel is within pennies of unleaded premium gasoline currently. I had several diesels including two Peugeots, two Oldsmobiles, and a Datsun. They all gave good service, though I had some fuel injection pump issues with one of the Oldsmobiles. (The Datsun diesel had a Nippon-Denso pump that looked amazingly similar to the Bosch pump on the Mercedes. It turned out the the Japanese pump was built under license from Bosch...) They were also all slow (although the VW turbo-diesel is probably better), stinky, and noisy. You'll have to drive a
L-O-N-G way to recoup the depreciation loss on your Benz and the expense of the VW purchase. The one overwhelming bright spot in diesel ownership is that if we find ourselves in another fuel shortage situation (not unlikely given the current and anticipated world political climate), diesel fuel WILL be available. Virtually all heavy commercial transportation and most agricultural implements are diesel-powered, and home heating oil is for all intents and purposes good ol' #2 diesel. Jet aviation fuel isn't too far removed either. It'll be pricey, but it will be there at truck stops. I do recall being smugly self-satisfied at passing blocks-long lined cars waiting to get gas on their odd-even days while I cruised right into a T/A truckstop off the 10 and started pumping my fill any time and any day of the week. One major potential fly in the ointment is that if the hostilities with Iraq result in a protracted, messy war, and the Venezuela situation goes to full civil war, diesel deliveries may be diverted to military needs. Commercial transportation and agricultural interests might then take precedence over civilian descretionary driving for remaining stocks. Buying the VW turbo-diesel may well make sense in your situation, but I'm not convinced actually selling off your apparently well-maintained Benz is really in your best interest. Having the flexibility of a gasoline powered car garaged with at least half a tank of fuel, in addition to your turbo-diesel VW, could be more than convenient.

wilkerson1

My 2003 E500 has a slight shudder when sitting in drive or park. The computer shows no malfunction. It's most noticeable when driving around town and not so much when sitting in the dealers garage.
When I took it into the dealer, they told me that these engines didn't run that smooth in park. Said something about being due to the liquid filled motor mounts. Are there any other owners experiencing this? I'm wondering if I have bad motor mounts.

maurcedes

My husband has a Dodge Ram 2500 truck with the diesel. It gets about 18 mpg around town and over 20 on the highway. The motor is noisy and smelly. But I understand that the newer Cummins diesels are solving this problem. I also have experience with those pseudo-diesels that GM foisted on the unsuspecting public in the 70s - broke down on the way to and from Florida in a friend's ride. Yes, I am having some second thoughts about selling the Maurcedes. It is such a blast to channel the ghost of Dale Earnhardt on I-85 through downtown Atlanta at night. And I know the Jetta won't be up to it. And I do have a motorcycle and a bicycle that can both get me to work on nicer days. We'll see what happens......

maurcedes

This chronology may be helpful to someone considering purchasing an older model E-320. Mine is a 1995, date of manufacture August 1994. It started life in Rhode Island as a dealer's service wagon, then was sold to a woman in Mass. who, I deduce from the service records, drove a lot and was probably on-the-road sales. It also apparently made the Florida run often in its early years. I bought the car in July of 2000 with 120,000 miles on it for about $16,200. Current mileage is 173,000.

Here's the scoop:

120,311 miles: Front brake pads, rotors, struts.

120,567: Drivers side window stuck.

125,708: Replaced rear load-leveling shocks. Power steering system serviced.

128,265: Transmission repair to fix reverse.

152,530: Replaced engine wiring harness and battery.

168,000: Replaced air conditioning evaporator.

Misc. repairs included a tail-light lens (probably done in by a shopping cart); an exhaust pipe hole; and the sunroof stuck open. The car's current repair needs are the transmission O-rings and rear pinion seal.

I also had complete services done at 120,311 and 150,951 and tires at 128,061 (Michelins, w/alignment) and 155,406 (Toyos, holding up fine). Oil changes all done on schedule.

ONE MORE THING: The "check engine" light was an intermittent annoyance beginning the day we bought the car. The EGR valve is bad, but I'm going to wait till the engine needs more major work before replacing it. The car runs fine and starts good. We don't have emissions testing where I live. When the A/C evaporator was replaced, they dismantled the entire dashboard, and I thus had the opportunity to "fix" the check engine light. I'm sure this is pretty common. I wish I had thought to ask them to replace the front stereo speakers also! They are worn out.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.