Lexus GS 300/GS 430

merc1

My point is that relative to Mercedes and BMW, Lexus' lineup has nothing to compare to MB and BMW's AMG and M series cars as far as "excitement" goes, nor do they have as many roadsters, coupes.

 

Nor does Lexus sell anything over 70K, which is where a lot of Mercedes' asking prices are so there is no way the sales race is going to be a level and even playing field. I'm not talking about what the actual prices are paid, I'm talking about their relative asking prices of their overall lineups, which puts Lexus at an sales advantage. Yes Mercedes sells a lot of C, E and ML level cars, but they also at least try to sell a lot of upper E, S, CL, SL cars too, of which Lexus doesn't compete pricewise. To suggest that the sales playing field is even is to ignore everything at MB and BMW from the 545i/E500 on up because Lexus only has one car and one Suv that crosses the 50K mark. If you need "figures" to understand this take glance at the model configurators at BMW, MB and Lexus.

 

M

callmedrfill

Oh, so now the barometer of luxury is north of $50k? I remember you saying 2 years ago it was $40k?

 

   I guess in 2010 it'll be $90K.

 

   Putting out 40 models and trims doesn't make you successful, omnipotent, or more exclusive.

If nothing else, it's kind of silly, to segment a market YOU ARE TRYING TO LEAD that much. Why?

 

   That's a good idea for a forum...oh...what?

 

   Anywho, Lexus has EARNED a spot at the Adult's table, through unprecedented performance and excellence in sales, service, luxury, durability, and appeal.

 

   What bothers me about your commentary is you paint Lexus as not appealing, for those who can't afford x, as if Mercedes and BMW could do more if they felt like it. This is all the same arrogance espoused by the marques themselves.

 

   They could make their cars friendlier but, they could make their service better but, they could make the ride smoother but, they could be easier to use but, they could have fewer problems but....

 

   Enough excuses! Show Lexus more respect! If the Germans don't, they will be the Cadillac/Lincoln/Jaguar of tomorrow.

 

   Regarding the prices of the cars, Lexus will never sell a Lexus of comparable strength for the same as Mercedes because Lexus has built their company on value, and always will. That's their strength, building a car as good or better for $10-20k less, then force Mercedes to react. Lexus brought out a V8 with 32 valves in 1989 to fight against a S-Class Mercedes with what engine? They didn't have anything that could even think about keeping up with that!

 

   Lexus earned respect by being better, at interiors, at ride quality, at quietness, at service. Luxury car buyers don't buy 4-door rockets, they buy great cars. Lexus builds great cars, whether you will admit that or not, makes no difference. The market has spoken.

  

   And Lexus ain't through yet! BY 2010, they will change themselves, and the luxury car industry again. I'm very proud of what they've done, and welcome their leadership past the old, dazed, and confused competition.

 

   Thank You.

 

   DrFill

callmedrfill

Mercedes and BMW I'm sure have a great deal of respect for Lexus, in fact, they are definitely on their heels, trying to keep the market share they've got.

 

   The basic problem is Lexus controls the US Luxury Market! The Germans are now held to Lexus' standard. They've changed everything you expect from a luxury car. And every year more disgruntled Benz owners migrate to Lexus, for good, if for nothing more than excellent quality and service they deserve.

 

   These are things they shouldn't have to make apologies for, or rationalize away for a German badge. The badge is nice, a car well done is better.

    

   Americans would rather have a nice car done great over a super car half-baked!

 

   And now Lexus will start building super cars.

 

   And for anyone naive enough to think Mercedes doesn't want to sell a higher volume of cars (like Lexus does), please ignore the haphazard December Sales Event promotions they (and every other Luxury marque) have copied (poorly) from Lexus.

 

   What'll they think of next, washing the cars after service?

 

   DrFill

Kirstie_H

We're not going to turn this into a Lexus vs. Merecedes (vs. whatever) discussion. We've done that before, elsewhere, largely with unpleasant results.

oac

to bring this debate back on topic, the new M will be a strong player against the new GS, but Infiniti needs to continue to churn out great products to remain on the map. Enthusiasts are so few and far between among the buying public that luxury cars in the $40K+ range need to play to the strenght of the market. Sporty, yes, but LUXURY first. If the new GS and M succeed in both areas, they'll succeed in the market. Who will be better ? Only time shall tell. The car is one thing, packaging and execution is clearly another.

lexusguy

Well said. I dont want to start another German vs. Japan war (though thats essentially what always happens, as all of us are pretty much on one side or the other. Curiously, there hasnt been a Cadillac zealot yet. I wonder why?) All I'm saying is, Mercedes is over 100 years old, and BMW and Audi are close. Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti are each 15 years old, and even their parent companies have generally only been selling cars outside of Japan in the last 40 years or so. All things considered, the progress that especially Lexus has made is nothing short of remarkable. Give Lexus another 30 years in this market, and the generation of people that actually remember legendary Mercedes like the 300SL to not be here anymore, and the Germans will probably be just more luxury players, rather than the leadership positions they enjoy as of today.

merc1

Believe me I don't want to start another thing like that of the past either, but my point was simply that sales aren't the end all of the market and they aren't the sale factor in determining clout, prestige, coolness or whatever you want to call it. Nor is the sales playing field exactly level. The German brands prices in theory do limit their sales potential compared to the Japanese, simply put. MB and BMW are at the very least asking for more per car in their upper ranges than Lexus, and especially Infiniti or Acura (should the latter two ever enter the top 3 sales position).

 

callmedrfill,

 

Now you should know me better than that. That 40K cutover point is a GM thing that Cadillac fans used to use in order to say that Caddy was the leading seller of luxury priced cars in the U.S. They have since dropped that because they were so badly overrun by Lexus and Mercedes in the 40K plus sales bracket. The Deville is what they were basing that on anyway, hardly a modern luxury car worthy of discussion here. I never at any time tried to suggest that Lexus is selling a non-luxury item because their best sellers are below 50K. You missunderstood my point (above). Believe me I've had that arguement for years and years with the GM folk who used to claim this "luxury sales" title for Cadillac because they were excluding BMW's, Lexus', and Mercedes' sub 40K cars. I have never subscribed to the theory that only cars of this XX,XXX price are true luxury cars because it is way to messy to try and decide which are true luxury because everyone has different or at least varying criteria for what a true luxury car or product is.

 

M

lexusguy

Also, I expect Lexus to move further upmarket as Acura and Infiniti continue to push past their mid 30s market into the 50s. The LF-A will be the start, followed by the LS LWB model.

callmedrfill

I thank you for a moment of clarity and contrition.

 

   It's obvious Lexus wanted to extablish a base for their marque as far as dealership proliferation, sales and marketing strategy, dealer networks, service, and a strong customer base, with excellent word of mouth. Now they can do whatever they want, and have a long lease to play with. It wasn't a matter of if they were going upmarket, just when.

 

   I guess after 15 years, time is due.

 

   All there recent concepts have been very attractive, hopefully a product onslaught awaits us, as indicated by Mr. Cho over New Year's.

 

    

   DrFill

maxhonda99

"The German brands prices in theory do limit their sales potential compared to the Japanese, simply put. MB and BMW are at the very least asking for more per car in their upper ranges than Lexus, and especially Infiniti or Acura (should the latter two ever enter the top 3 sales position)."

 

True, Mercedes has higher priced cars. But how does that limit their sales? Mercedes, for example, also has more models. Overall they have over 20 models and probably more than 3x the number of models Lexus does. This alone should translate to more sales(more models reach more prospective customers). Also, each Lexus model has a similarly priced Mercedes model which are direct competitors. For example, the RX330 vs. ML350. The ES330 vs. C320. The Lexus LS430 vs. S430, the E320/430 vs. GS300/430. I don't see how these models are limiting Benz's sales. Does anyone else? The ES330, RX330, & LS430 aren't limiting Lexus sales yet their direct competitors the C320, ML350, S430 are limiting sales? Ultimately sales figures mean very little, but fact is, with the number of models & variations Mercedes has in the US, they should be crushing Lexus because Mercedes competes head on with every product Lexus has yet Mercedes has additional products which Lexus has no competition for.

lexusguy

Good points. And it seems Mercedes aims to fix that by going further down-market. Im not sure its such a good idea.

callmedrfill

Nobody would buy a S430 for $75k after sitting in an LS for $55k!

 

   That's no competition!

 

   Did you guys check out Mercedes "market adjusted" prices for 2005, effective 2/1/05?

 

   Maybach starts at $325k

   SL starts at $91k+

   E-Class: $48k (V8 about $57k)

    

   They have a ways to go if they wanna "Get Down"!

    

   DrFill

sorter

So the GS will be price at about $43K V6, and $45K V6 AWD?

merc1

You guys are right. Price means nothing, 20K difference there, 10K here and 30K difference there for similar models, doesn't matter because everyone can afford to just buy what they want, regardless of price. I'm going to see about getting a S430, A8L or 745Li for a 55K base price, or SL500 for 63K. Lawd help us if BMW and Mercedes sell their sub 30K 1-Series and B-Class in any great numbers because you'll definitely hear about how price matters then if BMW and Mercedes pass the mighty Lexus in sales.

 

M

sorter

Maybe with Mini and Smart, Benz or BMW has a chance. Isn't that like Lexus counting Scion ?

callmedrfill

That wouldn't be the first time the Germans have acted like Desperate Housewives!

 

   DrFill

lexusguy

I'm not worried about a $22K BMW or Benz passing Lexus in sales. What I would be worried about if I were a Benz or BMW fan (which Im not) is my precious hood ornament on cars that compete with a TSX, or worse, Mazdas and Hondas. How does that look when it still takes $30+ to get into the most entry Lexus?

merc1

"What I would be worried about if I were a Benz or BMW fan (which Im not) is my precious hood ornament on cars that compete with a TSX, or worse, Mazdas and Hondas. How does that look when it still takes $30+ to get into the most entry Lexus?

 

I guess they same way it looks when you have to pay at least 70K to get into a S, CL, SL Benz, past the top price of any Japanese luxury car. If the Germans aren't at a sales disadvantage at the high end then its Lexus' own fault if they choose not compete any lower in the market. Since price doesn't matter luxury brands should be able to compete in any segment of the market, right?

 

sorter,

 

Mini and Smart have nothing to do anything, only luxury-brand-badge vehicles.

 

M

jfz

The resent messages about the superiority of Mercedes versus Lexus and vice versa amount to nothing more than a pig-kissing contest--the winner still kisses a pig. I suggest that the participants in this discussion find a more appropriate forum and restrict this forum to the discussion of the 2006 Lexus GS.

callmedrfill

Not waiting for the GS, or including the E in it's comparison.

 

   The M is one ugly stepsister, if you ask me, but they seem to have everything else sorted out.

 

   The STS didn't exactly light up the scoreboard. That's too bad.

 

   DrFill

lexusguy

"The STS didn't exactly light up the scoreboard. That's too bad."

 

I didnt expect it to. Japan may have figured out the German formula, but Cadillac still hasnt.

maxhonda99

Yes, disagree. I get it just fine.

Kirstie_H

Enough. The argument ends here, and further posts along the same line will be deleted. Focus on the upcoming GS only.

sorter

There is really nothing new to the GS to warrant the 4K price increase. Size? Style? Engine and Trans? well maybe a little bit, but the 5 spd to 6 and 20 or so HP jump is more like a minor change for ES300 to ES330. And remember, ES330 came with Leather free, a actual reduction of price. The question now I have is, are they going to raise the price for IS and the ES major change as well?

Another interesting pricing happened for GX, for a while, the third row seat was for free (last year) and this year they add more HP, and all of a sudden the third row seat cost money again. Is it the Yen vs Dollar? Things made in Japan price hike?

 

lexusguy

I dont know about the 2007 ES, but the IS350 will definitely cost more than an IS300 does now.

jrock65

As Lexus gains more and more in prestige and status, there will be corresponding price increases.

callmedrfill

But not cars that haven't caught on, like the IS and GS. They still need to earn those price increases.

 

   DrFill

oac

Here is the recent post by James Fletcher regarding the new Lexus releases..... Maybe this is where the discussion real begins...

 

jamesfletcher2, "2007 Lexus LS" #40, 31 Jan 2005 11:16 pm

 

Recap: Lexus will bring out the GS350/GS460 Spring 2005

 

Yes, you heard right. No weenie 3L/4.3L, but the real deal - 3.5L/4.6L motors. Do I hear the M35/45 defenders cringe just a little now ???

lexusguy

Uh huh. I'll believe it when I see it. It certainly makes SENSE for the GS to debut with the new engines, and I certainly have to give Lexus kudos for making people this insane about what the engines were going to be. If their plan was to stir up the kind of discussion thats been going on about the GS, it worked brilliantly.

jrock65

"Do I hear the M35/45 defenders cringe just a little now ???"

 

Um... what's there to cringe about. If true, which I highly doubt, it's good for all consumers, including M "defenders". What's your beef with the M, BTW?

lexusguy

I dont think M enthusiasts are cringing. I think the GS is going to be a great car, but so far only the M has been able to go face to face with the 5 series and not blink.

oac

Maybe this post will explain it a little.

 

oac, "2007 Infiniti Q series" #24, 30 Jan 2005 7:32 pm

 

My *beef* ain't with the M, its with Infiniti.

lexusguy

All I can say is its no longer the same Infiniti with rebadged Maxima GLEs and Pathfinders. At least give the M a legitimate college try.

oac

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense exactly what you alluded to here. Lexus sure needs to create a BUZZ about their entire future direction starting with the GS. How much interest would you generate when you show your new design BUT pre-announce with engines that will sure lead to confusion.

 

I mean, can Lexus really afford to release these new designs with carryover motors like the 4.3L ? The Bimmer is going 3.5L, the M is at 3.5L, the RL is also at 3.5L, how can Lexus compete with a 3L 245bhp motor ? Won't cut it imo.

 

So a 3.5L (we know they have this motor already) and a 4.6L (which could be a new engine, or a rebore of the 4.3L to add more displacement) makes the most sense. BUT, I hope this is not smoke and mirrors....My fingers are crossed...

callmedrfill

Will go 12-18 months with carry-over engines in 2006.

 

   So if the GS460 is so close to being on the street, why doesn't anyone even have a hint to it's power?

 

   Will the GS350 have the 300HP the IS will have?

 

   Why is the IS and 300Hp known, but nothing is known about the GS that goes on sale in...4 weeks....6 weeks?

 

   I've heard of keeping a secret, but this is giving me "Crying Game" flashbacks!

 

    All I know is the hot rumor on pricing is over $45k for the base model, which is high. But if it is a 300HP base model, than the price is right, about $3k under the RL, but with less equipment, and AWD optional ($2k option?)

 

    So it would more or less match 5-series pricing, but with 75hp more (potentially)? The 460 would have to have AT LEAST 350HP, maybe more to justify a $7-9k price difference.

 

   DrFill

jrock65

The 530i is not getting a 3.5. It's getting a re-tuned 255hp 3.0.

lexusguy

300 ponies for the IS350 hasnt been confirmed by anyone. The Avalon officially has 280hp and 260ftlbs of torque, but there is no official power for IS. My guess is that they will probably have 280\260 as well.

callmedrfill

Nap-happy!

 

  There seems to be a market shift to much more powerful cars, and BMW seems unprepared!

 

  The CTS has 255 (don't think Caddy salesmen won't bring that up to their customers, TWICE!).

 

  Questionable looks (I like), questionable user-friendliness and over-compensating tech, and modest power (relatively), could be the start of a fall.

 

  For the 3 and 5.

 

  DrFill

callmedrfill

To stay ahead of Avalon, and G35 (298HP).

 

  If Lexus needs to make a splash, that'll do it.

 

  They could start at 275, then go to 300 in a future update.

 

  They don't NEED to go to 300, yet.

 

  They could go 220 (IS250) to 275 (IS350), then bring in the 3.0 (245-250) and tweak the 3.5 (300) in 2008.

 

  DrFill

  DrFill

lexusguy

Power isnt really the problem that BMW has right now. The updated 3.0L will be enough to handle the Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and Mercedes 3.5L 6s, and beat the engines from Audi and Cadillac.

 

BMW's problem is Bangle's styling, iDrive, and Active Steering, the trident of doom. Have you seen the new supposedly fixed 7? They actually made it WORSE

jrock65

I wonder when the IS250 comes out, Lexus will come out with a GS250 as well, as an alternative to the 525i. The 525i accounts for 40% of 5 series sales.

 

IMO, Infiniti should start following the same strategy of offering cheaper, smaller engine versions of the G and the M. They need to build a bigger customer base and brand awareness.

lexusguy

BMW needs to do that because its cars cost so much more money than the Japanese. Ticking every option on a G35X brings it up to a good $37 or 38K, add another 2-3 grand and you've got a base M35. They dont need a smaller engine to fill in a gap that small. There wont be a GS250 for the same reason. Infiniti wont give the G a smaller engine because they dont want to dip below a certain price point. Dont expect to see $20K Infinitis or Lexus' to combat BMW 1-series, Audi A3, and Mercedes B-class.

jrock65

If Lexus can do it with the IS250, I see no reason why Infiniti can't do with a G25. They arleady make it in Japan (Skyline 2.5), so it can't be that much more work to bring it here. A fairly well loaded G35 costs $35k without the Navi or AWD. I definitely see a market for a well optioned $32k G25.

callmedrfill

So I don't see the case for cheapening the G below $30k.

 

   A GS250 Lexus does make more sense!

 

   Lexusguy

    

   If BMW falls 40-50HP behind, they will lose share, not become second-rate, but the martket will start to shift away, coinciding with their other issues (Active steering, interior, exterior, high price).

 

   DrFill

mariner7

I agree power isn't everything. Look at the MT comparo, the 220hp 5 is faster than all except M, which it runs very close to. The 255hp 5 probably will be fastest in its class.

callmedrfill

Had the help of a manual tranny. One will hide many a flaw, my man.

 

   Without it, add a .5 TO .75 second auto tranny penalty, it would've been bottom-feeding next Audi in speed (about 7.4 or so)!

   The manual saved it from an embarrassing 4th place! The Audi's interior and AWD would've beat out the Bimmer of similar performance.

 

   DrFill

maxhonda99

C&D magazine has a ad that states 4.3

l V8 with 300bhp. So I doubt the 2006 GS will come with 3.5 & 4.6L V8s.

lexusguy

The engine debate will no doubt continue right up until the car finally rolls into showrooms.

 

jrock65, I agree with fill. I'd rather have an Altima SE-R than a weak G, even if it was a few grand cheaper.

callmedrfill

Didn't think the 4.6 would break cover THIS QUIETLY! Lexus would've been trumpeting such an engine for a couple of months.

 

   And they would have to eat their words from 2004, specing the engines.

 

   DrFill

oac

Japan is secretive. A scoop is what I think is in the works for the GS. Get everyone talking - a 3L/4.3L or a 3.5L/4.6L. While I have no other evidence except one from Denny Clements (as reported by James Fletcher in the post I linked), I cannot imagine Clements stating wrong info. Why would he do so ? Neither have we read of any retraction from Clements, TMC or Lexus. Until I hear a retraction, I am sticking to the 3.5L/4.6L combo release for the 2006 GS twins.