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Lexus GS 300/GS 430

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes the E320 will become the "E350", most likely this fall. However the new E350 won't be using the old 3.7L SOHC engine from the ML350, as that was just a stopgap engine for the ML350, S350 and SL350, the latter two only sold in Europe. The new E350 will use the brand-new DOHC, direct-injection, 24V 3.5L V6 in the new SLK350. This engine produces 268hp. The old SOHC engines are being phased out, this includes the 2.6L, 3.2L and 3.7L V6s in various Mercedes models. There is also a new 3.0L version (220hp) of this new V6 coming. This engine will eventually power the C300 (replaces the C240) and SLK300. There might even be a E300, but I doubt it (price). The C-Class sadly *may not* see these new engines before production ends for the current model in 2006-07.

    I hope no one on this board is under the impression that BMW doesn't have new and more powerful I6s coming for this segment. BMW, like Honda is very good at getting a good bit more hp out of a few ccs.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Cadillac's turn around is coming from the CTS, STS, SRX (but mostly Escalade) not the Deville. They'll never be able to sell a single one outside of the USA, and I think Cadillac will want to do that, so Im willing to bet that a future RWD platform for the.. DTS? Is very likely.

    I would expect to start seein AWD options on more and more Honda cars, which is as close as you're going to get to RWD on a Honda. Well except for the next NSX.

    Toyota actually has a ton of RWD platforms. Even if you dont count trucks, the IS, GS, and LS are three right there. A new Supra (RWD) is expected, as well as an all new IS, and I dont think the SC shares its RWD platform with other Lexus cars.

    I guess if the E and A6 have new six cylinders, a new six from BMW is inevitable. They are not so stupid as to lose a hp war with their archrivals. The new M5 is BMW's "bring your turbos and superchargers, we'll beat you anyway" response to the "lowly" E55, RS6.
  • mascmasc Posts: 21
    There's been a lot of talk around of a 3.5L V6 in the making from Toyota. But does anyone haf a site they can refer to confirm the truth of these rumours? However, in my point of view a new mid-size engine from Toyota is really unessesary. There is already the new 3.3L V6 (with 225-230hp) that is replacing the old 3.0L in Toyota and Lexus FWD vehicles. And the NEW 3.0L V6 (with 245hp) that debuted in the new GS and the new Crown that is most definitely in place to take over the remaining mid-size inline6's from the GS and IS. Then why come out with a new 3.5L engine if there are already 2 engines in this category that are more than capable to run in this class?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Good question. I've heard rumors of a new 3.5L engine as well, but I have no idea as to whether or not such an engine actually exists. I dont think it does, as most of these posts seem to be refering to a GS350, which I know wont happen.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    So, I am guessing there will be a C300 and a C350?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Because of TownHall rules, I cant post a direct link to the site which more or less proves the existence that Toyota has a 3.5L in the wings, to debut relatively soon.

    But I will tell you the source is a TMMK employee, and the information he presented was based on a memo sent to the V6 Powertrains unit, which indicated the phase out of the Toyota 3.0L engine (now currently used only in the Camry and Avalon), and the introduction of a 3.5L V6 for the 2006 Avalon and Camry. It would appear then, that this V6 is intended for use in the Camry platforms, and not Toyota's RWD offerings, though I suppose its all just speculation at this point. Therefore, this new 3.5L V6 may or may not be relevant to all the engine discussion here.

    Also, it is not yet know whether Toyota's 3.3L 230 horse V6 was a stop-gap measure that will eventually be replaced by this new 3.5L, or if both will run concurrently. (It was, after all, not a "new" design, but rather a bored out 3.0L).

    That said, Toyota has already announced that the GS will be introduced with the all-new, lightweight, 245 hp 3.0L V6 as its standard engine coupled with a 6 speed auto. I would agree that speculation of a GS350 seems moot.

    ~alpha
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    alpha01,

    "That said, Toyota has already announced that the GS will be introduced with the all-new, lightweight, 245 hp 3.0L V6 as its standard engine coupled with a 6 speed auto. I would agree that speculation of a GS350 seems moot."

    don't you think it's kind of weird for Lexus to be introducing a smaller 3.0L V6 in a car more upmarket than the ES330 which has a 3.3L V6? For some reason I don't buy the 3.0L V6 in the 2006 GS. It would be totally out of sync with the competition. The E320 will become the E350 by '06, the Infiniti M will be powered by a 3.5L V6, so will the Acura RL, and BMW 3 & 5-series in the future.

    I think Lexus is being a little deceptive about engines up to now in the '06 GS.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I just disagree with you. Why would the lie go so far as to specify hp, torque figures and a new transmission to go along with it. Toyota/Lexus marketing can easily get around the issue of a 3.0L engine in the GS and a 3.3L or 3.5L in the ES. The vehicles are marketed at different audiences, and I dont really feel anyone in the Lex showroom is going to crosshop. Dont forget, also, that raw power doesnt tell the whole story. If the Lexus is lighter than its competition (M, 5, E, RL) and its transmission smarter, it may very well be as quick or quicker. And dont be surprised if Toyota finds a few more hp in the 3.0L GS engine by the time production rolls around.

    ~alpha
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    alpha01,

    "The vehicles are marketed at different audiences, and I dont really feel anyone in the Lex showroom is going to crosshop."

    That's what every manufacturer says. 90%+ of customers cross shop. And the E-class, RL, Infiniti M, BMW 5-series, Cadillac STS, Audi A6 will compete directly with the GS.

    It's foolish to think no one will crosshop the GS in a Lexus showroom. Do people not crosshop the 5-series, E-class, A6?

    I could see customers not crosshopping the GS if it was a low production specialty car such as a Honda S2000 or Lotus Elise. But clearly it is not. Lexus target is probably going to be in the 25K to 35K range in annual sales. If you are going to sell that many cars, it is a mainstream luxury car. In which case, how are you going to sell 30K units a year and not have a sizeable portion crosshop with the competition?

    "If the Lexus is lighter than its competition (M, 5, E, RL) and its transmission smarter, it may very well be as quick or quicker."

    come on, how much lighter is it going to be? 100lbs? That's probably about it if it is lighter. It's not like the GS is going to be 300, 400, 500 lbs. lighter than the E-class or 5-series. And the E-class is getting bumped up to new 3.5L 268bhp V6 soon.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You can have your opinion. When you can back it up with facts or at least the VERY LEAST, anecdotal evidence, maybe you'll change my mind.

    I don't know anyone who has cross-shopped an ES with a GS. One uses front drive and offers zero sporting capability, and the other uses rear drive and offers a bit of handling prowess, though certainly not as much as the BMWs of the world. It seems as though Lexus is looking to endow the next GS with a much more capable chassis to attack the curves, EVEN FURTHER separating the two mid-size entries (ES and GS).

    "And the E-class, RL, Infiniti M, BMW 5-series, Cadillac STS, Audi A6 will compete directly with the GS."

    Um, whats your point? I am well aware of the competitors of the GS. I didnt say anything about the GS not being cross-shopped against competitors. Of course people looking at the GS will also be looking at the above vehicles. Do you take me for some kind of idiot?

    My point is I dont think the ES is a competitor of the GS, and hence having a GS300 and ES330 or ES350 probably wouldnt make a difference to a vast majority of consumers.

    If you want to look at hp and torque alone, be my guest. We'll wait and see what the acceleration times look like. Even then, if the GS is behind by say.. a half second to sixty, I dont think thats going to be the deal breaker for many, ESPECIALLY if Toy/Lex do a good job on selling the cars other features, and especially if the 3.0L offers a significant fuel consumption advantage over other vehicles.

    I invite everyone to disagree with me, thats great, its what makes these boards valuable- different vantage points. But dont be all condescending and act like you're better than anyone.

    ~alpha
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    alpha01,

    I do have to apologize. My understanding was that you were saying nobody is going to crosshop the GS, period.

    You would be surprised how much crosshoping occurs within a dealerships own walls. Such as the ES with the RX and the LS with the GS. Same with the GS vs. ES.

    Come on, how many buyers(even GS) are going to attack the curves to care enough if it's FWD or RWD? There are lots of Lexus customers who stay within the Lexus fold and a customer who started with a ES may logically want to move up a notch and stick with Lexus. Now, that customer could easily look at both the ES and GS.

    Point is, evens cars are crosshopped with a auto make.

    I wouldn't call the GS a direct competitor to the ES, but it's still a competitor.

    "....and especially if the 3.0L offers a significant fuel consumption advantage over other vehicles."

    Come on, who's going to care about gas mileage? We're a country where even at $2 a gallon SUV sales keep growing, and you think a 1 or 2mpg difference is going to keep someone from buying one car over another?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "You can have your opinion. When you can back it up with facts or at least the VERY LEAST, anecdotal evidence, maybe you'll change my mind.'

    I'm not looking to change your mind, I'm just saying I don't buy the 3.0L V6 story Lexus is giving. why? Toyota/Lexus is pretty deceptive as it is when it comes to new car introductions. Another reason why? They are releasing engine specs about a year and a half before the car ever comes out. The market is going to change dramatically over that time. It's already known the E320 will get a 3.5L 268bhp V6, and the 530i will be getting a larger straight 6, which is also rumored to be in the 3.5L range. If the GS sticks with 3.0L V6, it will be seriously outgunned by what are supposed to be it's direct and biggest competitors. Don't forget the supposed specs for the 3.0L V6 from lexus 245bhp but only 228lb-ft of torque. How much more torque are they going to squeeze out of a 3.0L V6? 20-30lb-ft? I doubt it. Meanwhile the E-class will have 268bhp and I believe about 280lb-ft of torque.

    Let's not forget the 2006 GS430. Supposedly the same 300bhp and 320lb-ft, when the 545i has 325bhp and the upcoming larger E-class V8 will have over 300bhp and 300lb-ft?

    I think Toyota/Lexus is trying to throw the competition off. If they are, and it works' it would be one hell of a smart move.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    It's possible that they are using the 3.0 V6 at first, then add a hybrid motor, which will make the small size of the V6 moot.

    Also, let's not forget that there is a 525i, which sells almost as well as the 530i. There's nothing stopping Toyota from having a GS300, GS350 (a year later), and a GS430.

    In a way, I kinda wish that Infiniti would offer a G30 to go right at the 325i, which is the lifeblood of BMW in terms of sales. The G35 in Japan (Skyline) already offers a 3.0L version.

    On the other hand, it's smart of Nissan to use basically the same 3.5L in all their V6 vehicles, from the Altima, Z, G35, FX35, Quest, Pathfinder, Murano, etc. Sure, some would argue that there is no "engine exclusivity" but few would care. And it's a great way to keep prices down.

    But this 3.5L V6 that is coming in the Camry/Avalon is very interesting. It pretty much means that the ES will have this engine as well, since it makes no sense for the Camry to have a bigger engine than the ES. Same goes for the RX.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I honestly wouldnt be surprised if Lexus continues to use a GS300 and 430, at least in the short term. The 290hp LS430 is faster than the Q45, despite the Q's over 50hp advantage. Toyota has never been obsessed with hp numbers. The Camry has always been down on hp compared to Accord and Maxima, but they dont exactly have any trouble selling Camrys.
  • mascmasc Posts: 21
    A comment to your statement:

    "Let's not forget the 2006 GS430. Supposedly the same 300bhp and 320lb-ft, when the 545i has 325bhp and the upcoming larger E-class V8 will have over 300bhp and 300lb-ft?"

    I don't know enough about the plans Lexus has for the new GS 300 but for the upscale GS (above 430), they will offer a hybrid version adding on to the GS model line of 300 and 430. This is said as Lexus is on its way to include a hybrid version of every model before 2008. It is just Lexus's way of attacking the MB AMG and BMW M-performance series markets. So, no matter what the competition is in the smaller engine category, it is most likely that Lexus already has plans for facing the high-performance sport sedan segment.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "So, I am guessing there will be a C300 and a C350?"

    Sooner or later yes, but I don't think the current C-Class will see these models. Most likely those models will come along with the 2007-08 redesign.

    I think the new GS300's V6 might be a Honda-like engine, meaning revs and peaky power band that Toyota's typical V6s. I don't know. Like Lexusguy said Toyota usually isn't about hp and boasting about engine displacement, but it does seem just a tad bit odd compared to the competition, but lets see how this motor puts out those 245 horses. This type of engine would really make sense if they were going to offer a manual trans, but....

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I dont think that Toyota will continue to use this 3.0L and the current 4.3L for a long period of time. Like Mercedes and BMW, Lexus is in a transitional period when it comes to their engines. Their current engines were designed to go against what the Germans had a few years ago, mainly, BMW's 4.0L 282hp V8, and Mercedes 4.3L 275hp V8, with the 3.0L positioned against BMW's 2.8L six and the M-B 320, which they compare to favorably. Lexus obviously isnt going to stand idly by and let the Germans pass them by 30 and 40hp, especially since the JDM horsepower cap has FINALLY been repealed. My best guess is that this new 3.0L and the corporate 4.3 will get HSD to bring them up to the power specs of the competition. Even if they transplant the 400h's drive directly into the GS300 without any kind of enhancement, that takes the car from 242hp which is adequate, to 282hp which is top of the class, only behind the RL. Perhaps a GS350h and a GS500h?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We'll see because I thought this 3.0L V6 was brand new, but still 245hp isn't too shabby in this class. The RL is the overachiever, not the norm. The new standard will be around 250hp in this class...for now.

    The hybrid models I'm sure will have a hp and MPG advantage. Seemingly the best of both worlds.

    M
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Well said, and thank you for steering the discussion back on track from some WILD speculative guessing.

    ~alpha
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    alpha01,

    Well, since you the rest of us can't speculate, what's the point of saying anything about the 2006 GS? Basically everything said about it is SPECULATIVE.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I didnt say we cant speculate. But there seems to be a lot of partially unfounded assumptions being made.

    "What's the point of saying anything about the 2006 GS? Basically everything said about it is SPECULATIVE."

    Um, what? Lexus has SHOWN us a car, detailed some of the tech features, and told us the engines that will be debuted with the vehicle. YOU have chosen not to believe them, fine. That doesnt mean the rest of us dont believe Lexus. Now, what may happen subsequently... sure, thats anyones guess, but to me.... it seems pretty darn concrete what engines, features, and car we will be getting on March 1 of 2005.

    ~alpha
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    There was a short article on the new IS in Automotive News. In the article Denny Clements (Lexus GM) said that most likely the next IS will not offer a V8 engine (even though the LF-C has one). More likely, he said, is a choice of small- and large-displacement six-cylinder engines much like BMW does with the 3 series.

    This may help shed some light on engine choices in other Lexus models such as the new GS.

    As for the IS, Clements said the interior and engineering are firm, while the final exterior design is still being fine-tuned. Clements said the design can be polarizing because the rest of the lineup can be universal. The production version will arrive in late 2005 and will be launched globally in Japan, Europe and the U.S.
  • One point I want to make first.

       The Acura RL is rumored to sell for between $45k and 50k, so it isn't necessarily a GS300 competitor, since it has a larger engine and will be probably $5k more expensive, with AWD and all.

       The mid-luxury class is pretty murky in the form of who competes with who. Maybe a $40+k class and $50+k class are necessary.

       The M45 is V8 only. The GS 300/430 and STS V6/V8 both base in the 40s. The RL will be there. The 525/530. The Audi A6 (V6). The S-Type V6. The E320/Diesel/350.

       So if you base a class on price, the STS 320HP V8 and the RL 300Hp V6 AWD are the new class leaders!

       That said, I think all we are REALLY getting from Lexus is this. The GS line will START with a 245HP 3.0 Six.

       I haven't heard them confirm anything else, and that includes the V8, which at this point is unchanged.

       I'll eat my hat if the bring the same V8 to production a year from now! And I'd bet a new engine BETWEEN the 245HP and the V8 will be introduced, probably in the fall of '05. THEN a Hybrid variant of the V8. This would coincide with the next LS redesign, due around Winter/Early Spring of '05-'06.

      Also the IS is supposed to land with small and large V6 engines! So don't you think the GS might get the large engine? I wouldn't consider the 3L large. If anything, the 245HP engine will be the base engine for the IS! It's still under the G35's and TL's ratings, but MUCH faster than BMW's 2.5!

       My thought is Lexus is putting the final touches on a great 3.5, with around 270-280HP, that will see IS and GS duty, and at some point will get Hybrid power to boot. And the V8 will go up AT LEAST 30HP to allow this engine into a 100HP void in the lineup.

      If Toyota builds a Supra (someday), this engine would be purrfect for that application too.

       DrFill
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The new Infiniti M will be offered in both V6 and V8 iterations. Preliminary Pricing numbers and a fun Configurator are both available on www.infiniti.com.

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The pricing on infiniti.com for the M35/45 are just "teaser" test prices that could change + or - $3000 at any given moment. They did the same thing with the QX56 to gauge reaction.
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  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
  • boomsamaboomsama Posts: 362
    So will they still have the all-new 3.0L in the '05 GS? Any ideas of when the GS350GT is coming anyway?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    This is the first I've heard any sort of concrete evidence of new powerhouses from Lexus. All I can say is, its about damn time :) I for one, have wanted a GS500 for years. This GS350GT looks like it could be one hell of a cool car. Toyota engines can take more tuning punishment than any other...except maybe the R-34 Skyline GT-R. 3.0L Supras can hit 1200hp. Now all they need to do is start building hot Lexus' from the factory.
  • boomsamaboomsama Posts: 362
    any idea when delivery starts?

    and moderators, where did my post go on the Acural RL vs. GS300? thanks
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