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Toyota to add more hybrids.....

13

Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > considering its lofty price

    $20K for a midsize is fairly typical, close to average. So "lofty" seems inappropriate.

    > rather low

    That's a relative term, not a measurement or a reference to fulfilling need.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    and relative to contemporary cars, the Prius' dynamic limits ARE low. In fact, the present Prius handling limits are lower than some minivans of a more than a decade ago!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > are lower than some minivans

    Unless you are actually competing with a minivan, what difference does that make?

    If the car can avoid the obstacle, the need is fulfilled. More doesn't provide any benefit.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    In daily driving, you ARE "competing" with minivans, SUVs, sedans, sports cars and everything else on the road. It is this population of vehicles that defines the dynamic environment in which you must operate. Minivans as a class are but one notch above SUVs in the dynamic pecking order and below what one can expect of sedans, especially a $20k sedan.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > you ARE "competing" with

    Believe what you want. But in reality, there is a point of no gain, and we've reached it.

    Here in Minnesota over the last 3 years, there simply is no benefit of 4-wheel drive on typical roads. My Prius hasn't ever had any problems while driving through 6 or less inches. And the ability to stop makes no difference either. Where's the benefit of your "superior" vehicle?

    The same goes for highway handling. I swerved around a kayak that suddenly appeared while driving at 65 MPH with a bike on back and a full trunk. The Prius managed that without a lick of trouble. What more would I need?

    You can only go so fast. The roads can only hold so many vehicles. Risk taking will only save you a few seconds.

    Choosing a vehicle that is less likely to rollover and will provide better side-impact protection should be features that make purchase decisions, not squeezing out greater acceleration for driving where you can't (or shouldn't) use that ability anyway.

    Believe what you want. The technology isn't intended to serve 100% of everyones requirements anyway. If it can fulfill the needs of a large majority, mission accomplished.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    eventually, but a "large majority" is a pipedream. The Model T may be the only vehicle that ever served a majority of buyers and that was driven by low price, an attribute not shared by the hybrids.

    And to limit lateral grip is a very poor approach to create "a vehicle that is less likely to rollover"! That was Ford's approach for their dismal handling Explorer and look what resulted.

    To drive a vehicle of very low dynamic limits is more "risk taking" than I'm prepared to accept. Accident mitigation is nice, but collision AVOIDANCE is the first line of defense.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > The Model T may be the only vehicle

    I said the TECHNOLOGY, not the vehicle.

    > but collision AVOIDANCE

    Prius is a smaller target and is more nimble than many vehicles on the road. That gives it a clear advantage over a monster SUV attempting the same avoidance manuever. So finding ways to make smaller vehicles, like a practical-size SUV, a minivan, or a large car, more appealing by adding hybrid techonology will draw market attention.

    Prius clearly handles what real-world encounters have required from owners. Whether that achieves high ratings in a controlled lab test really doesn't have that much relevance, since those tests exceed requirements (but look great on paper). In other words, don't fall victim to marketing. Each year automakers tell you "more is better". Well after decades of doing that, you've come to expect it even though road conditions have changed very little (if at all). In my area, road conditions are actually better than they were in the past. Now the speed limit matches what people actually attempted to drive in the first place and highways have been expanded (both lanes and alternate routes) to handle the growing population. An assault vehicle is not needed, even though advertisements on television say otherwise. They aren't going to tell you the product they made years ago satisfy your actual needs, they will force the "more is better" thought to get you to buy the newer product. It's all a marketing game. Think about what is really needed. The gimmicks to make their product appear better than the competition is just fluff, providing no actual benefit for real-world encounters.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    In the physical world, perception is not reality. A car may feel "nimble" or quick while being neither. To function in the physical world, where automobiles operate, it matters not how you feel, it only matters what you DO. Perhaps this distinction is lost on a generation raised on video games and "virtual" reality.

    Sensations are important as feedback in the control loop, but if they suggest capabilities greater than can actually be delivered by the machine, they can be a liability. Instrumented testing under controlled (and therefore repeatable) conditions can define the ACTUAL limits of reality (and to date, the Prius has not acquitted itself well in such tests). "Seat of the pants" testing and anecdotal experience may be fodder for conversation but are good for little else.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > it only matters what you DO

    Time and time again I focus on *DO* but that fact continues to be discredited by emphasizing perception instead.

    You can't FEEL anything (a sensation) in a Prius. The nimble nature is very disappointing. Yes disappointing, since you can't FEEL the agressive steering ability. (Of course, some people like the smoothness.)

    Your eyes see it though! I am in fact able to perform those manuevers. I *DO* it. The same goes for the other owners too. But that continues to be ignored by those that don't even drive a Prius.

    When you drive it, you find out firsthand. I've slammed on the brakes at highway speed. I've climbed snowy hills in the winter. I've climbed up small mountains with a loaded interior & trunk. I've swerved around objects in the road suddenly. None of them have ever caused the so-called problems you suggest.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    you must not be DOing anything! A car cannot produce accelerations that are not experienced by the occupants (suspension motions et al notwithstanding), so if you don't FEEL it, it's NOT happening (at least not rapidly enough to notice).
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > A car cannot produce accelerations that are not
    > experienced by the occupants

    You obviously haven't been in a Prius.

    What is there to feel? Nothing shifts and the RPM remains constant.

    When first experienced, it kind of leaves you hanging. You expect the soft thump of an automatic transmission changing. But instead, you get nothing. Then later, the smooooooooth grows on you.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    I forgot that the Prius is not subject to the laws of physics. Silly me!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    Which law would that be?

    It sounds like you are a lawyer.

    With 56,300 miles of Prius driving now, I know what I'm talking about. It is remarkably smooth, despite what you claim.

    JOHN
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    I drive a Prius every week, and I certainly feel it moving away from a stoplight, and when it stops too! G-force, however slight, can most certainly be felt in this car, just as in any car.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > G-force, however slight, can most certainly be
    > felt in this car

    Yes, but there isn't any feeling produced from mechanical operation, no shifting of any kind despite the fact that motor & engine ratios are changing. That was the point... and still is. Once acceleration begins, feeling remains consistant as speed increases.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    that the present comments were spawned by your statement:

    > "......... you can't FEEL the
    > agressive steering ability."

    what does that "agressive steering ability" accomplish if not lateral acceleration?

    > "Your eyes see it though!"

    Now THAT is a new twist, in lieu of dynamic performance, we have dynamic imagery! Sounds like a video game to me, or maybe just a vivid imagination.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > what does that

    Topics rapidly wander here. Not having any type of thread concept on this forum causes that. The nature of posts, especially with titles, make it even worse.

    > Now THAT is a new twist

    Since when? I've been flying flight simulators since the 80's. My favorite thing to do is to fly using nothing but the instruments, ignoring other data inputs... like sight. Then I'll switch and do the opposite. The result is a very different flight experience.

    It is very possible to make driving decisions based on input from alternate sources. If you know the length a turn is, the speed you are traveling at, and the condition of the road, you can determine whether or not you are going to make it... no feeling sensation needed.

    Yes, that is very much like a video game. What's your point? Do you just automatically contradict opinions to keep the discussion going?

    Some people turn around to verify no one is behind or on their side, other people exclusively rely on mirrors. Either will get the job done.

    JOHN
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    that when you said "can't FEEL....", you really mean't "I choose not to feel ....". Interesting how your sensory inputs are switchable.

    I don't "automatically" respond to any comments, but statements that are illogical, irational, and or inconsistent with fact are hard to resist.

    Enough topic drift, this tread isn't about the Prius.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > you really mean't "I choose not to feel ...."

    No, twisting words again... you're attempt to mislead won't work.

    "from mechanical operation" is still my point.

    And once again, there is nothing to feel from that.

    This isn't even remotely on topic anymore, so no further acknowledgement will occur. Choose something relevant to the forum to discuss.

    JOHN
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,669
    on Toyota hybrids?

    :-)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

This discussion has been closed.