Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

2013 and earlier-Subaru Outback Prices Paid and Buying Experience

1495052545568

Comments

  • maverick1981maverick1981 Member Posts: 1
    looking to pull the trigger on an outback 2.5i auto. i live in the sf bay area (peninsula). any recent price points to share would be MUCH appreciated! thanks.
  • free8135free8135 Member Posts: 3
    I bought 2.5.i CVT base model from Oakland Downtown Subaru for 23300. no hassle pricing which beat all other Bay Area dealers.
    ask for Ike and I bet you would be satisfied.
  • ksm12ksm12 Member Posts: 2
    edited June 2010
    I looking to buy 2011 Outback Preimum Auto(CVT) with All Weather Package.
    Price MSRP 26,760
    Invoice 25,194.

    Dealer is quoting 24,503 which includes Dealer Handling.

    Is this a good deal

    thanks a lot
    KSM12
  • socal_guy1socal_guy1 Member Posts: 1
    Can anyone recommend a good dealer in Southern California? I'm considering a 3.6 Limited, and the best quotes are $800 over invoice which seems high compared to what others are getting here. It seems no better than a "Costco Price".
  • tmg4p00tmg4p00 Member Posts: 12
    edited June 2010
    I think that is a very good price on a brand new model year. It basically includes dealer holdback and marketing $$$. That should be well below the invoice listed on Edmunds.

    We just bought a 2011 premium with CVT, PVEZ, and All-Weather for $24,400 plus dealer handling, tax. MSRP was $27k and change. Financing dept was able to get us the 2.9% on the 2011. Also threw in all-weather mats for free and rear bumper cover for $40.

    We bought from a volume dealer in Colorado Springs, CO though the internet dept. Very happy with everything about the purchase. We will enjoy all the Outback has to offer this summer, and everything the Co winter can throw at us in 6 months!

    :shades: Good luck and enjoy the OB!
  • a4sfa4sf Member Posts: 13
    Hi, I was wondering if anyone can offer some advice about buying a 2010 vs 2011 outback at this point. I am looking at a basic 2.5i CVT or possibly a 2.5i Premium CVT. I'd prefer to get a good deal on a 2010, but in terms of discounting at this point in the year, what would be a good target price in my negotiations relative to invoice?

    Thanks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    2011 is supposed to get a folder side mirror, one complaint about the 2010s.
  • dim109dim109 Member Posts: 2
    Can anyone recommend a dealer/salesperson in or around NYC?
    Thank you,
  • ksm12ksm12 Member Posts: 2
    thanks a lot
  • fasttexfasttex Member Posts: 24
    edited June 2010
    Big Frank, You seem to have a bit of incorrect information. Dealer holdback ($$$ paid to the dealer to help with the interest payment on the inventory) is about 2% of INVOICE, not retail. Sales commisions are generally between 20 % and 25 % of profit, (Selling price minus invoice price) or a minimum or "Mini" of $100. I don't know how you make a living but it doesn't take a math degree to find out how many cars you have to sell to pay your bills. There is an incentive from Subaru that pays $100 to $175 per car in addition to the commission. This is dependent on the survey scores received from the customer. There is very little incentive to sell anything at a loss and who in their right mind would sell a bunch of cars at a loss? Edmunds says Outback 3.6R at MSRP = $32220, invoice = $30209, TMV = $31587. AWD Honda Crosstour at MSRP = $34730, invoice = $31257, TMV = $31972. See very little about buying experience, just a lot of bragging about price paid or walking out of a dealership. Poor sales guys that sold all these cars at these prices, their customer service must be worth only a $100 AFTER the sale!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    Holdback is absolutely calculated off of retail not invoice. Besides 45 years in and around the car business I have 2 invoices in front of me showing retail, invoice, holdback and advertising, among other info. It is retail NOT invoice.

    While some dealerships may have a "Mini" as you describe I know many salespeople who get peanuts on each sale, and live off the volume bonuses. I personally know some salespeople who got as little as $5 on a sale but made it up with their monthly bonus. I also know some salespeople who have worked at dealerships where the "Mini" was $25.

    The incentive to sell at a loss is to move product inventory and free up some floor plan expenses. This is only possible with national or regional incentives to the dealer and/or salesperson. Future allocations are also dependent on volume, so they get more product down-the-road. Dealers want lots of product available for sale but also don't want to have it sitting around in a crowded lot.

    You are of course free to believe what you want, but I have bought 2 2010 Foresters this year for well below invoice. I also had 2 bids from 2 different dealers on an Outback where the price was also well below invoice. Other dealers wouldn't come close to this. Some dealers will sell this way and others not, and conditions and timing have to be right. Also, every vehicle sold is not done this way, some buyers are willing to pay much more than others, especially if they need financing and are only concerned about the payment. A bad economy helps the buyer tremendously.
  • godeacsgodeacs Member Posts: 481
    edited June 2010
    Actually, you're both wrong...OK, partially right! Most manufacturers calculate it off of MSRP but Nissan, Kia and Hyundai calculate it off the invoice price. Guess it's a spli decision for bigfrank since this is a Subie forum and the majority do use MSRP to calculate..... ;)

    PS Source:edmunds.com
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    Ok, I can buy that. The invoices I was looking at were for Subarus and my previous experience was with Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, and Ford, never the 3 you mention. Thanks.

    I will also add that I was talking to my Soob salesman last night and he confirmed that at that dealership the "Mini" is $100 per vehicle for his regular pay, and he can make up to an extra $200 per vehicle paid quarterly, based on the matrix of volume and scores from customers. That quarterly bonus is in fact paid directly from Subaru. The "Mini" comes from the dealership, and he said he gets it even if they don't make that much profit on that particular vehicle. He said that on average the dealership makes lots of money so the short deals don't hurt. As I have always said, dealers make their money on the used cars, and that is what allows them to pay the bills and keep the doors open. On used vehicles he generally gets significantly more than the "Mini".

    Regards.
  • rdyrdy Member Posts: 36
    edited July 2010
    Generally - BigFrank is of course correct on Holdback calculation.
    I was wondering how long it would take for the rebuttals to show up.
    There will always be exceptions of course, but generally a mini is accepted to be $100.00

    I am surprised this issue I documented in a previous post, has not attracted more attention.
    http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/104-2010-2011-subaru-outback/20843-slight-st- - eering-wheel-shake.html

    There are naysayers of course, but it's real and it's painful.
    If it didn't exist, then SOA would not be issuing a TSB this month. I can only hope for your sake your new OB does not develop this issue over time like so many have reported.
    I have deferred my purchase until I see how the TSB and resulting fix plays out.
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    I agree on the wheel shimmy. I canceled my Outback purchase and bought another Forester instead.

    I noticed the shimmy on the Outback I drove on the highway. The first one I drove was a 4cyl and I never took it out on the highway, and I ordered a 3.6. When they got one in stock I drove it even though it was not one I wanted, and found the wheel shake. I then did some research and found a bunch of info at subaruoutback.org. I followed the proceedings and the pain those that had the shakes went through to try and get it resolved with almost no joy at all. That's when I canceled the Outback. I love the new Forester and haven't looked back once. My wife just bought a new Forester Limited, that's number 7 between the 2 of us.

    I hope the pending TSB fixes the problem for those inflicted with it because otherwise it is an excellent vehicle.
  • alacritiesalacrities Member Posts: 1
    We are looking to buy a 2011 2.5i CVT. The Dealer quoted 24,220 plus registration tax and a $349 "Administration" fee He said this fee includes his commission. I know the TMV doesn't include the tax and registration. Does it include the 349 Administration fee? I'm not looking to squeeze every $ out of the guy I just want a fair average price. Any suggestions for dealers in the Boston area?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    edited July 2010
    That fee is dealer-added. Many dealers do this, but you only pay that if you are willing to pay it. If not, keep negotiating. Tax, title, and license are state-driven and are the only non-negotiable fees.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For me, yes, the TMV should be the bottom line price, minus tax and tags.

    People often beat the TMV so if a dealer is still adding fees then IMHO they are being greedy.
  • rdyrdy Member Posts: 36
    "I'm not looking to squeeze every $ out of the guy I just want a fair average price"

    Why not - He is happy to do it to you.
    Admin fee, dealer prep fee, salesman's vacation fee, are all bogus.
    Commission is not in any 'admin' fee. Never has been, never will be, because there is no such thing.
    It's just 100% extra margin and he's seeing if you are willing to pay it.
    If it's killing you, donate that money to your local homeless shelter in the dealers name and give him a name check.

    Don't worry, you are still leaving $$ on the table even without paying bogus fees.
  • fungjowfungjow Member Posts: 4
    Could you tell me who offered you this deal?
    thanks
  • hratmsuhratmsu Member Posts: 7
    Has anyone bought a car from heuberger motors in Colorado Springs. They seem to have the lowest prices in the west.
  • easypareasypar Member Posts: 191
    I personnally didn't buy there, but know someone that did, and I know there is at least one poster, or lurker on here who did. I probably could have saved another $300 or so by going there, but it's 120 miles each way from my house so I didn't think it was worth it. Looking at their web-site prices they are lower than any other front range dealer. Can't speak to their service department.

    easypar
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    I considered buying there, but ended up buying from a dealer in Seattle instead. The pricing was comparable, but the drive home to Fairbanks was an extra 500 miles from Colorado so it did not make sense to spend an extra $75 on fuel and many added hours on the road.

    The person I contacted at the dealership was prompt in replying to my inquiries, but customer service never became more involved than that.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • easypareasypar Member Posts: 191
    An extra 500 miles? From CO Springs to Seattle? More like 1500 I would think.

    Plus a flight from Seattle to the Springs, at least one night in a hotel, etc.

    easypar
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    No, I was headed to Alaska; it is an entirely different route, but you're right, probably more like eight or nine hundred miles' difference. No hotels for me, I'm a real traveler! :P The only cost other than fuel is food, and I had more than enough with the two loaves of bread and PB/J I picked up.

    But anyway, the point is that the price of the cars were all but the same, so the Colorado car was more expensive to get home.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • outbackbuyeroutbackbuyer Member Posts: 1
    edited July 2010
    Here is a strategy for buying this car. It worked for me.

    1. Figure out what model and options you want at a dealer. Test drive the car.
    2. Leave.
    3. Go to Von Bortel web site (find with google). Price your car and options. They will give you a very aggressive price. Now you know the price to shoot for.
    4. Go to cars.com and find cars matching your requirements.
    5. Pick a dealer at the limit of how far away you are willing to drive to pick it up. Out of state is better. Call them. They will know they have to deal. Don't worry about service. Any dealer will service your vehicle.
    6. Make it clear that you are far away, and that you are concerned about that. This will give them an incentive to deal.
    7. Repeat this process with a few dealers, moving closer as your negotiating improves. You do this every 2-10 years. Car salesmen do this 5 times a day. You need practice. They don't.
    8. For this to be effective, you need to sell your trade privately. Otherwise, they will lowball the trade.

    Here is how this worked for me on a $27,020 sticker price Outback with no trade:

    I didn't do step 2 and negotiated very badly./ Bottom line price: $26,000.
    Van Bortel price (5 hour drive away): $25,164
    Dealer 50 miles away: $25,000
    Dealer 15 miles away: $25,298 (sticker is $27,065)

    I went with the last offer - they had a red one ;-). The $25,000 offer was the first offer from an out of state dealer. The last offer was the second offer from the last dealer after I laughed and said the first offer wasn't even close.

    Note that these prices are all including conveyance fees, not including about $100 in legitimate plate transfer fees. Sales tax is not included.

    Dumb me, I thought I had a deal with the first dealer at a $150 better price and the sales manager smelled blood and jacked up the price at the last minute. I should call him and thank him for ticking me off and "forcing" me to go find a deal $700 better.

    One other note about my miserable negotiating with the first dealer. Once I thought I had a deal, I confessed that I had sold my car already and I was driving my son's car. Tell salesman as little as you can about your situation, and do not fall in love with a car.
  • 1hhead1hhead Member Posts: 18
    Dude, I like your style. Despite what we all see on TV, capitalism is not dead.

    BR.
  • mrgoodwrench69mrgoodwrench69 Member Posts: 5
    edited August 2010
    Hello,
    I just got back from Test driving a 2011 outback today at the dealer. I was then shown a 2010 2.5i Premium that had been used as a loaner vehicle. This 2010 outback has 2,300 miles on it, includes the weather/ climate package, no moon roof. Saleman tried to sell it to me for $24,900, I offered him $23,000 out the door price with all fee/ taxes included. They countered with $24,300 out the door with all taxes and fees, I walked out. Is $23,000 a good price for this Outback? Again it has the 6speed automatic, heated seats , power driver seat.Thanks for any input. Waiting on dealer to call me...Forgot to mention, this includes a 6 year / 100,000 mile powertrain warranty, plus free inspections and loaner car for life of vehicle..
  • fasttexfasttex Member Posts: 24
    Mrgoodwrench,
    I doubt very much that he will call you back. Look at the TMV price for that vehicle. He offering to sell you that vehicle at well under TMV price for a Certified Pre-owned Outback. If it were me I would wait about two days to call you back and see if you had reconsidered your unrealistic offer. I would call him back Monday and jump on that! !!
  • fendertweedfendertweed Member Posts: 98
    ... agree w/ fasttex ... if he's under TMV for a CPO and he's selling it to you titled as a new car w/ a 6/100 Subaru extended service contract on top of the factory warranty, I'd jump at it ...
  • rdyrdy Member Posts: 36
    edited August 2010
    He didn't say Subaru Extended warranty....who issued it and what are the terms.
    If its a third party extended warranty, we all know what some of those are worth.
    CPO? He didn't say. Has it been titled and registered?

    Its a 1.5 year old vehicle, not new.
    Treat it like any used car purchase. Get it checked by someone else, drive it thoroughly. Does it shake? Has it had any work performed on it? Ask for the service record.
    New 2010 Premiums w/allweather pkg are selling now for 24.5k
  • bigdadi118bigdadi118 Member Posts: 1,207
    edited August 2010
    Powertrain warranty does not equal to extended warranty glod plus ...
    Subaru standard powertain warranty is 5yr/60,000 anyway

    Is this loaner in dealer plate and never registered?
    It will be sell and register as NEW car if it is never registered, like demo with mileage. You may also qualified for new car loan specials.

    You didn't say the trim (limited, base, Prem., 2.5L or 3.6L) so it is hard to guage the offer price.

    deduct $0.07 to $0.09 per mile driven.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like a bargain if you don't mind the non-folding side mirrors.
  • ldl20ldl20 Member Posts: 10
    Greetings, all. Finally gave in and sold my '04 Odyssey private party, in order to get a new Outback. I'm in northern NJ (Bergen County), and here's my deal:

    2011 2.5i Premium w/CVT / Moonroof / All-Weather Package
    Satin White Pearl
    all-weather floor mats
    media hub
    wheel locks
    side, behind seat, and rear cargo nets
    rear bumper cover
    splash guards
    front bumper underguard
    puddle lights

    I optioned the car through Truecar.com, printed out the order sheet, and went in to the dealership (Liberty Subaru in Emerson, NJ). After a test drive, I told them I was interested, but I was still in the process of selling my van. The sale wouldn't be finalized until the end of the week, and they wanted me to leave a $500.00, non-refundable deposit, which I thought was strange. Of course, I said I would wait until the sale was completed, and the cash was in my account before doing anything, so I left. Less than 1 hour later, my salesperson called me to say that his manager cleared him to place a hold on it (it was in Boston, at the port) without any deposit, but I had to call him on Friday, the day the van was being sold. I said I would, and long story short, the sale worked out well, and I was able to get to the dealership before it closed that Friday, July 30th. We had yet to discuss a firm price, other than a first offer from him at 26,900, before I mentioned any options, for a 2010. When I showed him the Truecar report, and told him that I wanted a 2011 for the rear view camera and folding mirrors, here's what happened: he wrote everything down on the sales form, checked with his manager briefly, and told me we had a deal. No haggling, no trying to sell me a 2010 on the lot, it was pain free and easy.

    Price: 27,409.00
    Doc fee: 195.00
    Tire Fee: 7.50
    Sales tax: 1,977.43 (NJ is 7%)
    Extended Warranty for 7/70,000 (It didn't pay to go for the 100K, as we will surely reach the years before the miles): 840.00

    And I got the 2.9% financing for 63 months, and all the options were at cost. I'm happy with the deal, as it was well under what TMV was for a 2011 equipped like mine, and it was a breeze. Who knows if it's really $300 under invoice, but all I know is the sticker says 29,720, and I purchased it for 27,409 (before taxes, warranty, tags, etc., of course). I highly recommend these guys in Emerson, NJ.
  • mrgoodwrench69mrgoodwrench69 Member Posts: 5
    Well, the dealer did call me back today (monday), to see if I had any questions. I told him no and my offer of $23,000 still stands. He told me that would be an incredible deal, but he asked his sales super. and was told no. He gave me no counter offer. I just told him thanks, and to call me if he changes his mind.
  • mrgoodwrench69mrgoodwrench69 Member Posts: 5
    This is a CPO outback, with the Factory 100K / 6 year warranty. This vehicle was never titled, only about 2,300 miles on it. Dealer wanted $24,900 , I told him I would pay $23,000 with all the fees and taxes included.
  • mrgoodwrench69mrgoodwrench69 Member Posts: 5
    The trim is the 2.5 i premium with the all weather package. for this 2010 model.
  • ths258ths258 Member Posts: 10
    "Extended Warranty for 7/70,000 (It didn't pay to go for the 100K, as we will surely reach the years before the miles): 840.00 "

    Is this the Gold warranty? What is the deductible?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    Which transmission does it have? You mentioned 6-speed auto, but the 2.5i only comes with 6-speed manual or CVT....
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • mrgoodwrench69mrgoodwrench69 Member Posts: 5
    6 SPEED AUTO / CVT....
  • ldl20ldl20 Member Posts: 10
    Not sure if it's considered the Gold Warranty (probably not), but the deductible is $100.00
  • godeacsgodeacs Member Posts: 481
    Don't hold your breath!.....you missed a good deal...... ;)
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    edited August 2010
    @ldl20: Thanks for your details. This helped me negotiate today on a very similar deal with a local dealer. I optioned the following at Edmunds (TMV), Truecar.com, and Van Bortel:

    2011 2.5i Premium w/CVT / Moonroof / All-Weather Package
    Satin White Pearl
    all-weather floor mats
    rear bumper cover
    splash guards
    MSRP: $28,443, Invoice: $26,754

    The TMV price seemed high ($27,776) compared to your price paid. Van Bortels was very low at $26,490. TrueCar "GreatPrice" was $27,290. Best offer (about 5 hrs away) was $26,480.

    I offered my local dealer $26,950, plus will get the 2.9% (for 3 years) and free oil changes at the dealership for life. :) No negotiation, we were both fine with the deal on the table.

    Very happy with that deal. The dealer makes a fair price and I feel good about what we paid. And I prefer workign with the local dealer. Will close tomorrow.

    Thanks again, as always to everyone who posts their experience here - it really does help everyone to get a better deal than they would without all this info.
  • familyguy9familyguy9 Member Posts: 17
    Hi
    I am shopping for a 2011 Outback 2.5 Premium with the CVT and AWP, plus wheel arch moldings, rear bumper cover, splash guards, and PZEV (I am in NJ)

    Here is what I have so far:

    Edmunds TMV $27,057
    Edmunds Invoice $25,932

    Dealer 1: $26,324 in person.
    Dealer 2: $25,900 via phone.
    Dealer 3: $26,553 via internet (this did not include the moldings, so I added in $400, which Edmunds has as the TMV for the option).

    Dealer 1 and Dealer 3 have the car on their lot (I test drove it at #1). Dealer 2 says he has to get it from Pennsylvania. All are within reasonable distance from home/work.

    Any thoughts, comments? #2 seems the obvious choice but it just seems too good to be true.
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    edited August 2010
    I think the bottom line is to go with who you feel comfortable with.

    I had no problem giving my local dealer a few hundred more than the "cheapest" price I found - which was not local - because I'd like to keep my local dealer in business since that's who I need to service my car in the future.

    So, #1 might be my initial choice - but I'd go back to them with another offer first, say $26,200. Don't forget that they're making about $800 in holdback from the manufacturer on the Premium, so even at $26,200 they are making around $1100 on the deal (based on the invoice price you quoted) - a fair profit for most dealers.

    But if #2 felt like a reputable dealer to you, go for it. Again, they're making $800 on it through holdback (and maybe more through other incentives we don't know about), so that may be enough for them to be happy.

    Good luck.
  • familyguy9familyguy9 Member Posts: 17
    There are numerous dealers in the area who can service the vehicle, so I am not concerned about keeping one in business. Plus, I highly doubt my few hundred dollars is the difference between Chapter 11 and solvency.

    Where did you get the information on holdback?
  • fendertweedfendertweed Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2010
    this is a short-sighted approach IMO ... your couple of hundred multiplied by many sales can make the difference, so if a local dealer has a good service dept., then IMO it certainly is worth buying there, particularly if you ever have a serious warranty issue or a post-warranty goodwill issue.

    That is when you want the dealer on your side advocating w/ SOA or whoever the mfr. is --- I have seen this firsthand more than once and it has gotten me thousands of $$ in post-warranty goodwill coverage when it would be very easy for the dealer & mfr. to blow me off and be completely justified legally.

    There is such a thing as being penny wise and pound foolish... IF a local dealer has a good service department, then it is IMO worth buying there if they can get close, if not necessarily the rock bottom lowest price. If they don't have a good service dept. then it doesn't really matter IMO. I generally don't rely on the dealer for service other than required services while under warranty (even though you don't have to do so), but it is good to establish a relationship with their service dept. for the reasons laid out above.
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    edited August 2010
    Well, familyguy9 beat me to the punch, but I agree with him whole-heartedly in his response.

    Dealers don't stay in business by simply giving the test-drives and then having everyone buy somewhere else. If it's not a dealer you care about, or where you would get it serviced, then it doesn't matter - which is why I also said Dealer #2 might be an option for you.

    Bottom line, again: buy from who you feel most comfortable with, not *just* the lowest quoted price. I've had it work out both ways - where I felt best with a local dealer and where I felt best with a remote dealer. No one can answer that for you.

    You asked for advice on which to take, and we provided our reasons why. If you just wanted best price, you didn't really need any advice - that one's straightforward: Dealer #2.

    As for holdback, the infromation's all over the place, but I got my quoted number from TrueCar.com.

    ***EDIT***
    Got a call that the car should be in tomorrow. :)
  • familyguy9familyguy9 Member Posts: 17
    In my experience, dealers have good service departments that go the extra mile (e.g., post-warranty goodwill coverage) not because I paid a few hundred more in the showroom, but because they want me back as a future customer in that showroom, and also want me to refer customers to their showroom.

    I have gotten the best service in terms of covering warranty items from those dealers that I purchased from repeatedly -- and those have been the ones that have the lowest prices.
  • fendertweedfendertweed Member Posts: 98
    I think you have the reasoning I was outlining exactly backwards... the service is not because you paid more ... the point is that it can be worth paying a bit more to get the service.

    I can also show you high priced dealers with lousy service dept. and they get neither my sales nor my service business.... and low priced dealers with lousy service depts. -- there is no inherent correlation IMO/IME ...

    but whatever ... it's your money and time
Sign In or Register to comment.