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Lincoln LS: Problems & Solutions

schneider11schneider11 Posts: 4
edited March 20 in Lincoln
My 2000 Lincoln has 110,000 miles and has overheated 5 times in the last 30 days. I have taken it in all times and the mechanics cannot figure it out. It does not happen all the time. In other words when I take it in, it does not overheat, but after driving it a few days, boom, it happens again. The computer show nothing, the thermostat has been replaced, the lines have been bleed, radiator cleaned,,,and so on. Anyone have any ideas?
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Comments

  • mullins87mullins87 Posts: 959
    with a situation similar to this. My wife had a '91 Grand Am. One night I noticed the temp. hand beginning to creep up during some stop-and-go city driving. But just as soon as I got out of the traffic, which was luckily only a few minutes, the temp. went back down to normal. Well, I just chalked it up to the stop-and-go traffic, but I kept a close eye on it after that. I noticed that if the car was sitting still, or moving very slowly, it would try to overheat. The fan was not coming on. But how could that be since the very same type driving on even hotter days the car would not overheat, even when sitting still in traffic for several minutes at a time?!?! Well, I did some investigation and found the fan will come on and stay on if the A/C is on. But, with the temp. sensor out, the fan would not come on by itself.

    It may be that none of this will apply to your car, but it might. It sure had me scratching my head for a while. Leave the A/C on all the time and see if the car still overheats.

    BTW: Mine never did set the check engine light.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    Sounds like a cooling fan issue because it is one of the few variables in the cooling system, maybe the only thing that can really vary day to day.

    What you need to do is this---when the car starts to overheat, pull over and see if the cooling fan is running or not.

    If it IS running, and you've done all you've said you've done, I'd do a pressure test and look for a head gasket leak-- which can also in rare cases be a variable.

    MODERATOR

  • jdonneejdonnee Posts: 56
    I had a situation where my 2000 LS was indicating an overheat situation and the computer would actually slow the car down as it is suppose to do. I would pull over to the side of the road, turn off the car for two minutes and then restart. All would be fine and the temps would be back to normal on temp gauge.

    Dealer replaced the thermostat and everything has been fine since.
  • atnatn Posts: 1
    I have a 2000 Lincoln LS and I have been having overheating problems too. It will go a while without an incident but then all of a sudden it will overheat. Does anyone think this might be a sensor problem?
  • jaffojaffo Posts: 2
    My 2001 had an overheating problem that was related to a bad power steering pump. The Dealer said the LS has a hydraulic cooling fan.
  • vidtechvidtech Posts: 212
    generally if it overheats during stop and go driving look for an air flow problem across the radiator.if it overheats on the freeway look for a water flow problem.are you losing coolant?check for leaking water pump or head gasket.hope you do not have the 4.6 v8 in that lincoln.with the plastic intake and all that aluminum that engine won't take too much more overheating.
  • mullins87mullins87 Posts: 959
    vidtech: The 4.6L is not available in the LS. I'm not sure, but I think the v-8 in that car is somewhere around 3.9L.

    jaffo: A hydraulic cooling fan???? I've been under the hood of my sister-in-law's LS, and granted I wasn't closely studying the fan, but I'd bet you an expensive steak dinner it's electric.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    Could be a viscous clutch type fan. Some people call those hydraulic, but I don't recall any connection to other hydraulic systems. That sounds like something only Citroen would do.

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  • slunarslunar Posts: 479
    OK mullins87, I want that steak dinner. The 2002 - 2002 LS has a hydraulic motor turning the engine cooling fan. I believe that this was done to reduce the electrical load on the alternator.

    The there was a period of time when Ford was getting bad hydraulic fan motors. This problem held up early shipments of the T-Bird as well as LS's for a while. Before any of you start bashing American and Ford quality, the hydraulic fan motors are made in Germany.

    In 2003 the LS switched to an electic fan motor. I'm guessing that they could do this because the heated seats are no longer the electric heater wire type.
  • mullins87mullins87 Posts: 959
    You bet this Sunday I'll have my head stuck under the hood of my sister-in-law's LS. This is one setup I have to see. I'm not bashing American and most certainly NOT Ford's quality. I drive an F-350 and my wife has a Windstar.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    Interesting. So how does this work exactly? How do you pump hydraulic fluid into a spinning fan hub? How do you get hydraulics to spin anything directly?

    MODERATOR

  • mullins87mullins87 Posts: 959
    I've seen hydraulics used for this type mechanism for years. Though, usually it on pieces of heavy equipment such as a rotary cutter mounted on a long arm used to mow steep right-of-ways. Utility companies use hydraulic drilling machines to bore holes to set utility poles. I just can't believe Ford would put that much engineering, production and assembly cost into something like this. I cannot wait for Sunday to get here!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    But do those machines actually spin something with direct hydraulic action? How does the drill "drill" with hydraulics? What gets the fluid going, and what mechanical advantage could there be over a clutch, or cable drive or ????

    Seems to be hydraulic drilling or spinning would be a very mushy, non-direct affair.

    Guess I need to take a few of these apart and see what's what.

    MODERATOR

  • slunarslunar Posts: 479
    Hydraulic motors are not mushy and can have many advantages over clutch cable drive. There is nothing mushy about a hydraulic cylinder, liquids are NOT compressible.

    Two key advantages of hydraulics are:

    1. The power source can by remotely located and can deliver more power to a remote location that has a lightweight power head.

    2. Should a hydraulic motor stall, there is less chance of damage, such as broken cables, gears etc.

    The best way I can think how to explain the advantage of hydraulics, is to think of pnumatic power tools and how well they work. They work on air, which is compressible. Now imagine how much more power could be delivered to the too with a no compressible liquid.
  • swschradswschrad Posts: 2,171
    probably some sort of stepping cut into the back of a rotor assembly... when hit by a stream, close tolerances so no leakage, voila! -- a turbine results.

    sounds quite european, designers mad with power forcing managing directors to mop up the test lab, etc... and that's got to be a $150 motor at least, not including the pressure hoses, replacing what at retail is a $35 DC motor on your traditional FWD cooling fan.

    also a good way to hose up PS pumps over time. just put a goldarn bigger alternator in, geez. that level of detail and precision to move air across a radiator is absolute overkill and expensive.

    oh... the atomic bomb revealed that all matter is compressible under sufficient heat and pressure. it's just that you need shaped charges or a critical mass plus of nuclear fuel to get that much.
  • mullins87mullins87 Posts: 959
    on the typical car engine works. It has an impeller that spins, sucking fluid in one side and forcing it out the other. Well, imagine that same setup only where the fluid is being forced into one side under very high pressure. That impeller is going to turn. Reverse the flow and the impeller will turn the other way.

    Now as swschrad described, the tolerances are much closer allowing very little leakage past the impeller. Have you ever driven a hydrostatic riding mower? That is a hydraulic drive system. To test the "mushiness" of this type system, take off either in forward or reverse and slam the pedal or lever into the other direction. The mower will either break traction and spin the tires while going the opposite direction, or it will snap your neck and immediately reverse direction. And as mentioned above, if you happen to overload one, there are usually check valves designed to relieve pressure on the drive system should the change in direction be too sudden.
    Most all of the zero-turn radius mowers you see are hydraulicly driven.

    But, as I said earlier. I cannot wait until Sunday afternoon to get a look at this system. It just boggles my mind, which may not be hard to do, why Ford would spend that much money to engineer something this way!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    Thanks for those observations, much appreciated.

    However, applying this principle to an automotive cooling fan, one wonders why one would take a simple thing that works so well and make it more complicated? I'm wondering what the engineers thought the advantage was. I mean, a motor takes power to operate, too. Maybe they wanted something super-quiet?

    I'm wondering if this type of cooling fan could be motor-oil driven, since it sounds like the hydraulic fluid is only used as a "pusher" and doesn't need to be hydraulic fluid at all.

    MODERATOR

  • swschradswschrad Posts: 2,171
    it's just tech overkill. it would also mean having to beef up the oil pump to provide the third or half horsepower the fan probably takes.

    maybe it makes for a smaller motor to use a hydraulic. but such a cost.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    I remember when Mercedes used hydraulic windows lifts (briefly). We used to break pencils with the windows and I recall the lifting pressure was something like 2500 lbs psi!! Apparently if a line broke while pressurized it would cut through your finger. Talk about over-engineering!

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  • swschradswschrad Posts: 2,171
    from all the do-gooders hanging on you screaming about dangerous windows.
  • sawmillsawmill Posts: 81
    Apparently the electric load on the original LS was too great to accomodate an electric fan -- that is what we were told by Lincoln back in 2001 when we raised the same questions. In fact, a problem in a shipment of hydraulic fans brought the production line to a halt.

    I would guess hydraulics are more efficient then converting mechanical motion into electricity by alternator and then back into mechanical motion by a fan motor -- hydraulics does not waste energy, except by fricition, but there must be a strong reason to replace cheap electric motors with bearings, valves, fluid, and pipes.

    I am told the Jag S type of the same year (with pretty much the same engine and chassis) had an electric fan.
  • The fan on 2000-2002 LS (V6 or V8) is hydraulic. It runs off its own pump and uses power steering fluid. How do I know?? I am a Service Director at a Lincoln-Mercury-Volvo-Mazda dealer.

    By the way....2003 and up have electric fans.
  • mullins87mullins87 Posts: 959
    you can bet I had my head under the hood today. Damn I hate to admit this, looks like you guys are right. This absolutely blows my mind!! Why would Ford go to this level of engineering and expense to do something so simple as a cooling fan? Or is this just a case of leftover British engineering? I can see a design like this going hundreds of thousands of miles, why put it on a car that most probably won't see 150k?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    There's plenty of good engineering that is not cost effective. Given how good electric cooling fans are, I was just wondering if there was some compelling reason for a motor-driven hydraulic fan. I believe they did it (obviously) but can't believe they thought it was a good idea.

    I'll try to make it a point to check one out sometime and see it in operation. Thanks for the info everybody.

    MODERATOR

  • q45manq45man Posts: 416
    Hydraulic fans on SC400 [Lexus] since day one. The radiator was to far forward to have a safe shaft length for an engine driven fan in V8 applications [car was designed for a I6].

    Electric fans are hard to speed control [on/off/at best high low] vs engine speed vs air speed [mph].......see this on V8 mostly due to extra heat output.....very reliable have seen SC400 with 300,000 miles if the PS fluid was changed.

    Really hard to get a reliable >110-120 amp alternator unless water cooled [BMW/MB].
  • slunarslunar Posts: 479
    mullins87 said "why put it on a car that most probably won't see 150k? "

    The LS was the first FoMoCo vehicle designed to their new 150,000 mile durability specifications.

    The LS is build so solid, 200K will not be a problem for any LS that is well maintained. If you read the LS forums on Edmunds and elsewhere you will see that there are a good number of LS's that already have over 100,000 miles. Two LS owners I know are around 120,000 miles with them running strong at this point.
  • scottc8scottc8 Posts: 617
    I know two owners of '00 V8s that had intermittently failing thermostats. New thermostats fixed the overheating problem.

    Another possible cause: If the coolant was ever drained, there is a specific process for refilling that must be followed to the letter. If not, large air bubbles can be trapped in the system and cause overheating.
  • I didn't say that car wouldn't go 150k. I said "most probably." In todays disposable world I really don't think most people will want to keep their car that long. Now, how long will an '83 Caprice Classic go without ever having any engine or tranny work? (excluding thermostats and alternators) How long will a '92 LeSabre go without ANY engine or tranny work? Both vehicles are in my wife's family and both are well past 300k! In fact, the Caprice has never seen a tranny fluid change. And yes, I am telling the truth.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    You've already beaten the calculated odds for those cars by a long shot. Most predictions for modern cars done by engineers suggest 175K-225K at the outside. 80s cars were probably even less.

    Here's another way to get good cooling:

    image

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  • alcanalcan Posts: 2,550
    Looks like an old Isetta, but weren't they 3 wheelers?
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