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MINI Cooper Prices Paid

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    blackhatblackhat Member Posts: 34
    I just e-mailed Bob Smith Mini in Calabasas, CA. I told them I wanted a Mini Copper convertible next year, and that I refuse to pay a penny over sticker. I'll see what they have to say about that.

    I've read some e-mails about folks buying back east and driving their Minis home. I mentioned I would do that if I had to, as I am from CT, originally, and know of a dealership in Hartford who told me flat-out, "Not THIS dealership!", when I asked if they were marking up their Minis.

    Depending on the news I get from these L.A. county dealers, I may take a trip back home to get my Mini convertible next Spring!
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Reports from the East Coast are that you can basically order a MCS exactly as you want for MSRP and have the car in a couple months. No big deal. BMW is encouraging custom ordering of cars this way rather than having dealers have inventory on their lot. And the option list is expanding so each car can be customized even further to each owner's taste.

    Unless you want to walk onto a lot and have a car today, you should have no issues ordering and buying for MSRP. I know nothing about the DC area specifically, so perhaps you might have to drive a couple hours, but you should have plenty of choices in MSRP dealers that are not too far away.

    On options, most folks don't think the OBC is worth anything what the option costs, especially when bought alone. Likewise, for east coast roads, I'd think twice about the sport-pkg - the standard MCS wheels and suspension are considered the best compromise for rough roads. The base MCS at $20.5K is the real value leader in Minis.

    - Mark
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    akitadogakitadog Member Posts: 117
    I've been reading the posts here at edmunds for the Mini for about the last two weeks and I've learned a lot. I want to thank those that have given me some pointers. I'm soon to be in the market for a MCS.
    I have a question about Mini financing.
    I'm definitely going to go for traditional financing. I would like to know what kind of APRs the dealers are giving. I'll most likely go through a bank, but I'd like to gauge the numbers the dealers are offering. Thanks ahead of time for any help.
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    bikerider1bikerider1 Member Posts: 12
    I live in Las Vegas and bought my new MCS at Moritz. The reason: referals from other west coasters who wouldn't stand for $2500 to $6000 markups and 8 month wait. The results: total satisfaction from the people at Moritz. I actually bought it under list as they made an error when I was quoted and did not pass along the price 1-1-04 price increase, much to their credit.
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    feverfever Member Posts: 6
    I have just gotten really serious about buy a mini. What are the thoughts about paying over msrp, what i have heard is don't do it.
    So if anyone has thoughts on msrp on a mini on the lot and ordering one.

    Also if anyone has experience with a southern Cali. dealer it would help tons.
    thanks
    i am going crazy with options
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    If you want the car right away and don't mind paying the extra, go for it. MSRP is just a number on a piece of paper. What matters is that you feel the car gives good value to you personally.

    But if you don't mind traveling (or shipping the car) you can get MSRP deals with short waits at a several dealers across the country. It's just a matter of how much your time and trouble is worth to you.

    - Mark
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    atonyatony Member Posts: 1
    I was looking at a mcs monte carlo pkg the other day. I think the sticker on the car was about 27000. Any idea on the car and the price . Is it worth the extras over the normal mcs with all options for a little $$$$ less ?
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Yesterday I orderd my new '05 MINI Cooper! Base vehicle (I need automatic) in Chili Red/White top with Cordoba Leather Interior. I got every option available except the Sport Package as I didn't want the run-flats. I did get all of the other Sport Package options seperately though. I like the combo. I worked with Global Imports, here in Atlanta and, including dealer installed XM Stereo it came to $26,604 plus $595 dealer prep (includes carpeted floor mats). Straight MSRP.

    What I can't get over is how "FUN" this car company is. I've always had higher-end GM cars or, most recently, Lexus'. Although I never had a bad experience with them, this whole MINI process has been so much fun! I get little emails from both my sales consultant and MINI with cute stories and links.

    I can't wait to get it! It should be here sometime the end of August.
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    307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    Isn't the separate dealer prep charge a junk fee? If so, it isn't straight MSRP.
    Most manufacturers include the cost of dealer prep in the cost of the car. Is it different for the Mini?
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    No, your wrong. Dealer Prep is a fee that is charged by every dealer I've ever known (including the one's my mother used to own). This is also known as "Dealer Doc Fee". What you may be thinking of is Destination Charge which is included in the MSRP.

    I have only negotiated on the Dealer Prep fee once when a Cadillac dealer tried to charge me $895. Most dealers are in the $500-$600 range and I felt comfortable paying them this.

    I DID pay "straight MSRP" as that was what I agreed to purchase the car for, the amount that was taxed. "Fees" are not considered part of the purchase price of the vehicle regardless of whether they are Documentation Fees, License Fees, Tag Fees, etc.
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    307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    No, dealer prep and doc fees are different. Doc fees are typically around $50+- a few $ and is a fee the dealership charges to file your registration and licensing paperwork for you and send it to the DMV.
    Dealer prep fees are charges to clean and prepare the car for delivery (check tires, fluids, obvious defects etc.).
    Most manufacturers include those costs in the MSRP and do not have the dealers make an additional charge for that.
    A few manufacturers do not, so that is why I was asking does Mini officially not pay the dealers and expect the dealers to charge this directly to the consumer? If so, then 100% of Mini dealers would charge it.
    If this is not a dealer prep fee and is a doc fee, they are charging around $600 to file your paperwork to the DMV, and that's also outrageous.
    If you don't care, then just be satisfied you paid $600 over sticker and be done with it. Many people are satisfied with that and pay similar amounts in additional dealer markup or overpriced mandatory dealer-installed accessories and paint/fabric sealants, undercoating etc. because they want the car desperately and are at the dealers mercy due to lack of competition.
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    It's not "Over Sticker". It's not part of the PURCHASE PRICE. It's part of the added fees. I've purchased 8 new cars in the past 10 years and every one of them charges a "dealer fee" of some sort. I'm not saying whether or not it should be paid but it NOT part of the purchase price.

    Purchase Price and "out the door" cost are two entirely different things.

    There is a big difference between paying a dealer markup (example: MSRP: $37,000.00 + Dealer Markup $1,500 = (Negotiated Sales Price) $18,500) and paying MSRP (negotiated sales price) and fees.

    This was most evident while I was looking because I was considering a Toyota Prius. Some dealers would sell at MSRP and some would sell at MSRP + $5,000 dealer markup. On the other hand ALL Toyota dealerships in my area (all dealerships I have come across, period.) charge a dealer fee of $500-600.

    Working with an "Out the Door" figure makes no sense at all. This fee is also in the area where I put the down payment in. Because the bottom line there is what I'm financing do I say I purchased the car for $7,500 under MSRP?????

    FEES and NEGOTIATED PRICE are two entirely different things.
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    NO. In Atlanta the dealership mostly lump this all into a "Dealer Doc Fee" or "Dealer Prep Fee" One line.
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    307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    So, it is not "over the sticker price" since you don't have to pay sales tax on it, but is an extra fee that goes to the dealer that is not mandatory unless Mini happens to be one of the few manufactures that do not include this cost in the MSRP. I don't know whether Mini is one of the exceptions, so that is why I was asking that question. Someone here should know the answer to that question.
    The dealer got extra profit and allows the buyer save face to be able to say they bought at MSRP, and the state/county didn't derive any extra tax revenue from it since it was excluded from taxation by being classified as a "fee."
    It is semantics since you had to write a larger check regardless.
    So, the Toyota dealers selling the Prius also charge it and that it makes it sound even more like it is just marked up junk fees they charge on "in-demand" cars, just because they can.
    The only dealer fee I have paid on cars have been the "doc fee" which was been $45 to $55. The rest of the fees on top of the selling price and destination charge listed on the factory sticker are only government fees (tax, license, registration, title etc.), but I haven't bought a car that was in such desperate demand as a Mini or Prius, so the dealers would not be able to get away with it in my case.
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    crunchcrunch Member Posts: 84
    I just checked the contracts on both of the MINIs that I purchased this year, both have a $50.00 doc fee and no other charges other than the usual tax, tag, and title which are exact charges and non-negotiable. No $500+ prep fee so it doesn't appear to be a MINI thing. I did pay over msrp for dealer installed options on one of them but thats how the extra is listed, 'Dealer installed options'.
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    micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    California limites "doc fees" to $50 due to the abuses by dealers discussed above.

    A friend bought a car in Nevada fought like hell over a $495 "doc fee" there. They acknowledged it was an additional profit center (finance departments are already more profitable than new cars for some dealers, because of the GAP, alarm, and other services they sell when your guard is down) and they couldn't waive or reduce it (this is called a "negotiation ploy'). However, after another hour of negotiation they dropped the sale price by $500 (but not, technically, the doc fee).

    So where the "custom" is to collect a $500 doc fee, MINI dealers outside of California definitely have it better than dealers in California.

    As to other cars, you have to add back in the $450 differential on non-California purchases to figure what kind of deal you got ($3,500 in rebates, $2,000 dealer discount, $500 markup in junk fee vs. the rebates, only $1,500 in dealer discount).
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I never stated this was a "doc fee". All I am going on is experience and every car I've bought in Georgia - Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, Lexus and now MINI has a Dealer Prep fee. They have all ranged around $550 or so.

    Am I saying that this cannot be negotiated? No. Am I saying that this isn't a charge that goes directly to the dealer? No.

    All I'm saying is that this is not part of the "Purchase Price". Yes, it is part of the "Total Paid" but not the "Purchase Price". My original post, lest it be forgotten, stated that the "Purchase Price" was MSRP.
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    The "dealer prep" fee is a simple dealer profit add-on and is NOT standardized or universally charged at all. It goes by many names:

    + dealer prep
    + doc fee
    + ADM (additional dealer markup)
    + market adjustment

    and others.

    It doesn't matter what they call it, ANY fee above and beyond MSRP + state tax/title/license is an additional dealer profit fee by definition, nothing more, nothing less. You didn't pay MSRP, you paid MSRP + $600. If you're happy with the deal, then that's fine, but you can't say you purchase price was MSRP because it was MSRP + $600.

    - Mark
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    First off, I haven't even gotten or purchased my MINI yet, it is ordered. I fully intend to negotiate that Dealer Prep fee down.

    I KNOW MY EXPERIENCE HERE IN ATLANTA SO UNLESS YOU HAVE PURCHASED SEVERAL VEHICLES HERE THEN YOU KNOW SQUAT ABOUT WHAT THE DEALERS TRY AND CHARGE HERE AS A "CUSTOM".

    Second, I've been in the car business over 20 years and I know what "purchase price" is and what "dealer add-ons" are, especially where taxes are concerned and how they are calculated.

    I thought I was entering the "MINI world" where people weren't quite as uptight as some. I guess not. It's probably typical of most boards. The people who have a few car purchases under their belts think that they have the entire process nailed.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    fwiw, Edmunds shows MSRP to be the National Base Price without the destination charge. So MSRP for a MINI CooperS 2dr Hatchback (1.6L 4cyl S/C 6M) would be $19,899. Destination is $550. link (you have to select a color and go to the next page to see the destination fee).

    There's a footnote about ad fees but I don't think that applies to the MINI.

    My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think we used to consider that MSRP included destination. The National Base Price stuff is only a year or so old.

    My sister is still thinking about one, but she's not rushing into anything.

    Steve, Host
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I've received my production number and am now tracking my MINI!

    Since I haven't yet paid anything or signed any contract I'll definitely negotiate that "Dealer Prep" fee. I've done it in the past and, it seems, here in Atlanta where every dealer I've dealt with puts it in, they pretty much expect you to.
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    rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    The add on charges are always hot topics and "BS' charges to me also. I paid $195 in "document fees" additonal after my MSRP purchase of my Mini way back in April of 03, that was at Prestige Mini in N.J.. They would not negotiate that fee whatsoever even as ridiculous as it was. I swallowed hard and made the buy based on my need for a good gas mileage commuter and the "fun factor" of driving this oversized go cart. I don't regret it but the fees are ridiculous. $50 I can understand but not over or above that.

    I hope all the warranty repairs I've had done are'nt indicative of things to come after my warranty runs out! I already have 33k after just 15 months. Maybe time to trade up to a MCS at the end of warranty...hmmmm !

    Ray T.
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    SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Hey Ray - some states regulate the doc fees. People have discussed it over in the Smart Shopper board. Just a side note.
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    micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Hey Rayt2,

    Can you detail your warranty issues? There aren't many owners who have run up 33k miles, so I'd like to know what to expect (although rumor has it the quality control has been steadily improving). You have a 2003, right?
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    rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Sylvia..........thanks, haven't been to that discussion yet...so much to do so little time.....

    As of this date dealer in Ramsey, New Jersey charges $16449 base sticker plus the $550 destination & their "optional documentary fee" of $211, broken down as "clerical expense" & registration fee, for a Cooper with no extras.

    MicWeb,

    Go to the "Problems and Solutions" on this board, I posted the warranty issues there. #122

    I'd like to think as time passes the problems will become less. The down side being that dealers don't have to tell you about TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins) which deal with particular reoccurring problems with instructions for technicians to follow, but don't warrant a recall notice. The only way you find out is if you state a particular problem which mimics the criteria for that TSB. I did not know they have had 23 "PCM" upgrades until I mentioned a stalling problem. Service ticket showed they did the upgrade #23. Had I not mentioned this problem and was out of warranty I'd had to pay for it.

    Enough off topic discussion for now...... I still love this car !

    Let's Motor !

    Ray T.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Know All the Costs Before Saying "Yes"

    Steve, Host
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Well, I cancelled my MINI order and, after much talk and a strong letter from my attorney, got my $1,000 deposit back.

    When I started inquiring about the "Prep Fee" I really started getting a load of BS. At some point it had turned from a fee that I wasn't comfortable with to them totally lying to me about it. The last straw was one of the other salesmen, who is in the local "MINI Club", telling me that sure, I didn't have to pay the "Prep Fee" but they would deliver my car dirty. I couldn't believe it. I actually called my mother in California about it and she started laughing and then started getting really mad. She said that in all of her years owning dealerships she had never heard such pompous thing.

    I ended up getting a Toyota Solara Convertible (well, I will have it in a few weeks) and I'm much happier actually. The people I was chatting with on the other boards were kind of scaring me. They got a little to much into naming their cars, calling them "baby" and such. They even banned me from even seeing their message board when I created a long string of remarks regarding Global Mini's tactics.

    No offense to any other MINI owners but I kind of feel like I escaped from one of those cults you see on TV!

    They really are cute cars and maybe someday I'll have one as a weekend run around car.
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    crunchcrunch Member Posts: 84
    You name your pets, why not your car?
    And if you really don't want to offend MINI owners, perhaps you shouldn't have made the statement at all!
    I really do hope you enjoy the Toyota. See Ya.
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    micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Hey, my MINI is on its way, and I am suffering some of the same feelings you are. First, I stopped by a MINI dealer in Los Angeles while visiting there from the Bay Area, and they are really arrogant and snooty...not helpful or "enthusiastic" at all...it was like I was bothering them, and I didn't tell them I'd already ordered a MINI from East Bay. I just wanted to see more colors and scope out the size of the car.

    Second, I got a packet of info from my own dealer, a pre-purchase packet, and apart from setting up the car the way I'd like it (in terms of door locks automatic, daytime running lights), which I'd already done via an email through MINIUSA, they had a sheet asking me which of a bunch of horribly expensive options I wanted - BS stuff that they usually try to sell you in finance departments.

    Maybe I am a little sensitive, but like you I think there is a "let's be happy" thing going on here ... compared with straightforward treatment I've had from other dealers. "Price? Why would you ask the price? If you ask the price, maybe you shouldn't be buying one." That kind of stuff.

    Anyway I'll let you know how it goes as the delivery comes up. I think its a great car, otherwise. Why are great cars sold by "grating" dealerships?
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Well the fact that it is a BMW probably has a lot to do with it. I think like BMW, but maybe lesser, people go into it wanting a European car more than a great experience.

    Did you get a manual? The last time I was in the dealership there was a girl that came in from service to talk to my saleswoman. She had her car two months and clutch went out! They were talking and I overheard. Her boyfriend also has one (although it sounds like it is a year old or so) and HIS clutch went out. The saleswoman had the gaul to tell her that she probably wasn't using the clutch right and they take some getting used to. I wonder if that means the service department was going to say it wasn't a warranty item because she caused it to go out. The girl sounded really annoyed. Reliability was also a big concern for me once I started checking into it.
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    rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Mike,

    Sorry to hear about your bad experience and cancelling your order. It's unfortunate but there are dealerships that are extolling the virtues of owning the Mini to the point of nausea and tacking on unrealistic charges to boot. You might even drop a line to Mini USA about how this particular dealership treated you, they seem sincere enough to want to know about how customers are treated.
    Maybe down the road the opportunity will come to get one, till then enjoy the Solara.

    Ray T.
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    mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Thanks for the input. I guess I'm not so mad at the dealer it just really stunk to be treated so badly by the members of the MINI group here in Atlanta. I swear, because I had the balls to say anything negative about the MINI and the dealership and their charges, I swear that they treated me like I was rejecting god himself! There were a few moments and posts when I felt like these people were "posessed by MINI"!!!!

    All kidding aside. I love a lot of vehicles but I've found that the perfect vehicle and/or dealership just isn't out there. There are a lot of great things about every vehicle and a lot of not so great things.
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    blackhatblackhat Member Posts: 34
    Man - o - man... I HATE hearing stories like yours! I ran into some real thieves back in 2000 when I was interested in the PT Cruiser... and boy, was I "taken for a ride" ( no pun intended!). Unscrupulous, double-talking, con artists if there ever were any!

    This all happend in L.A. county (so, big surprise THERE!).... Luckily, I found an honest dealership out here - Mini of Longbeach. They will not charge a premium of any sort for a Mini. You configure it, you order it, and they'll get it for you at MSRP.

    Just out of curiosity, I contacted another L.A. dealership - Mini of Universal City - yesterday to see what they would do for me. They charge $2,000.00 over sticker for a Cooper... and it was explained that this represents 1.) extended warranty, 2.) a LoJack, and 3.) factory floor mats(?)....

    I decided not to even bother with these folks. When I told them that I wanted to pay sticker for a car that will order to my specs, I was told that "they are very reasonable and will negotiate with me..." WHOAH!!! Stopped right then and there! No negotiating - no need to when there is a sticker on the window! I learned my lesson from the Chrysler nightmare.

    Anyway... sorry you won't be getting your Mini. I will be going out of my way to get mine. I'm sure there are honest Mini dealers somewhere not too far from you.
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    hollyghollyg Member Posts: 6
    Hi. My mini just came in and the salesperson is talking to me about purchasing an "autobahn bra" to protect the front of the car. He says they are more prone to knicks and scatches because they are low to the ground and their physical structure. Also, he suggested insurance for my runs flats and rims. These are the only 2 things he's suggested with any real emphasis. Advise me! thanks
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Check out Car front end protective bras & film.

    How much did you pay - MSRP?

    Steve, Host
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    I'd advise against both.

    The bra will protect the front end from scratches, but has its own problems. Dirt can work its way behind the bra, and over time, sand the paint, and there is the issue of uneven fading of the paint between the covered and uncovered surfaces. Many bras don't fit that well either. Finally, they're ugly, but that's a personal thing. I think the best bet is to accept that the front of your car is going to get some nicks and just live with them, or touch the car up with some touch-up paint. You can go with protective film, but that's got problems also.

    The wheel insurance is simply a rip off - expensive for what you get. They hard sell this because the chances of you cashing in on it are slim.

    If you decide you do want either of these items, I'd shop around rather than buying them when you buy the car. They're pushing these items because the markups are incredible - probably over 50% of what you pay for the wheel insurance will go directly to the salesman and finance guy.

    - Mark
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    crunchcrunch Member Posts: 84
    I agree that the wheel insurance can be a rip off. Think about it, when was the last time you needed a new wheel? If it was 2 or 3 times in the last year or so, then maybe you need it. If you can't remember ever needing a new wheel (like me) maybe its worth the risk. If I really needed one and couldn't afford it, my comprehensive would cover it anyway.
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    padpad Member Posts: 7
    Does anyone know if the manual transmission gear ratios were changed in the 05 base model ? What kind of rpm's does it turn at 65 mph in 5th or 6th if you have the S model ? Also do dealers charge a "prep" fee in Texas, if so how much ? Thanks in advance.
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    crunchcrunch Member Posts: 84
    I can only speak for my dealer, John Roberts MINI in Dallas. I purchased two MINIs, no prep fees. They typically charge MSRP for an ordered car. MSRP +1K for a 'in stock' MC and MSRP +2K for an 'in stock' MCS. Some negotiating can be done.
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    hollyghollyg Member Posts: 6
    thanks for your response about the bra and wheel insurance. I will take the latter off my list of wants...Before I nix the bra thing, another question. The one they'd be using is more like a protective film, not removeable material. Are there problems with paint fade? Do they peel off?
    thanks again - Holly
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Holly, some folks swear by the clear protective films, others think they do more harm than good.

    If you go onto any of the other Mini forums you'll hear a lot of pro/con. I have no experience.

    My recommendation is that you simply ignore the whole issue until after you take delivery. You'll experience a super hard-sell on this and other things when you buy the car - they do this because they know you're vunerable, they're high profit to the dealership, and the idea of rolling the cost of these accessories into the monthly payment seems attractive. But they're almost universally a poor value - you can do better getting these accessories a month or two later on your own. In fact, you can probably go out and get the protective film treatment from the same people who the dealer contracts with but at a fraction of the cost since you're eliminating a middle-man.

    Just say NO to EVERYTHING. When you get the car home, you can take month or three to decide what stuff to get.

    - Mark
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    snowjet03snowjet03 Member Posts: 4
    hi, try going to east bay mini in pleasanton.
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    akitadogakitadog Member Posts: 117
    I rarely post here, but I read almost everyday. Getting a MCS in a couple months. I have a question about dealer financing. Do they take care of all that on the date of order, or on the date of delivery? Thanks, and keep up the good posts.
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Typically, you can be pre-approved on the order date, but the actual paperwork occurs when take delivery of the car. Many report that the dealers attempt to bump the interest rate up when they get ready to sign the papers, so it is always good leverage to have an alternative financing option ready to go, even if you plan to use the dealer.

    - Mark
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    doolsdools Member Posts: 11
    Was quoted the above in Escondido yesterday, though the salesman said that it was negotiable. Blackhat, any idea if the Long Beach dealer is going with MSRP for 05 convertibles? Also, they want 7K for the JCW package. Love the car, hate the mark-up. Thanks for any thoughts.
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Wow, be sure to make a reality check here: Do you really want to invest $35K+ in a Mini? A Subaru STi is $32K and you're within spitting distance of a BMW 330ci w/perf pkg or a base 325i convertible. There are just a ton of wonderful cars in the $35K range that are a lot more car than a Mini.

    And there is the issue of feeding 210-hp through a light FWD economy car chassis, and one that is none-too-rigid in convertible form. The Mini really starts to have serious handling and torque steer issues when you start working with this level of power.

    Just a note of caution. Again, good luck with your decision.

    - Mark
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    tgfiretgfire Member Posts: 1
    Hi All,

    I've read the posts about the dealers in Dallas - anybody know of a good dealer in Houston?

    TGH
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    elysiumgirlieelysiumgirlie Member Posts: 1
    I am about to pay $22,900 plus taxes for a used 2003 MCS with Factory DVD Nav Syst, premium pkg, sportspkg, cold weatherpkg, and safety and convenience pkg. tinted windows added after factory. sold by a private owner. Ran the vin, looked good. (This is PA)

    Does this sound like a decent deal to you?
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    markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Well, you can probably find several dealers fairly close to you that could get you a brand new 2005 with all the packages and nav for the $26K MSRP. In exactly the color and detail you want. And deliver in a couple months.

    In my mind a brand new car, that is two years newer with two years worth of improvements (including more power) and a full three-year warranty is EASILY worth $3100, especially with all the teething pains this car had in the first couple years.

    Better yet, buy the new one without the nav. Then they're only $1200 or so apart.

    - Mark
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    guestguest Member Posts: 770
    I'm in the market for a mini and am interested to hear what owners think of the mini's handling in inclement weather, i.e. snow

    it's really annoying that you have to wait so long to get one...

    DC
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