VW brand experience - good or bad?

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dfmarcus

Look at 2 things...

First, car sales in 2004 are down in total relative to 2003.

Second, look at percentage changes. VW cars are in the middle of the pack.

boaz47

You don't think the dependability ratings for VW have anything to do with slipping sales? Remember I have had three so I know they can be fun, but to be rated lower in dependability than Hyundai would make me, if I were the CEO of VW, uncomfortable to say the least.

dfmarcus

I never said that ratings have no effect. I only said that there are other reasons that may be able to explain the some or all of decline in sales. You can't simply look at the raw change in sales and come to any sort of conclusion without doing more indepth analysis.

kurtamaxxguy

I've not owned VW for many years (a semiauto superbug was my first car - ah, the thrill of getting on freeways!), but the bad ratings by J.D. Powers and Consumers Union, combined with a nasty tendency for the dealers to be arrogant about the VW brand, remain a turnoff.

A Pity, as some of their engineering is truely fine (like those hydraulic rear suspension bushings Chevy has copied for their new Cobalt). Perhaps VW feels the design, not the execution, is the most important feature?

alfox

and continues to do so. It will take another 10 years to work off the current rep even if they can turn their Jetta/Golf quality around.

But to be fair the Passat remains about average or slightly better. The coming redesign will tell boatloads about VW's seriousness re quality.

jimlockey

I agree with several above. The VW dealers service policies are a big turn off. For example it cost me three times the amount for preventive cost for My 2002 VW Beetle than my 2000 Ford Power Stroke diesel. Their automible designes are fixed so special tools are needed just to change a tail light or running light. This will keep me away from VW.

alfox

the dealer is the last place I would go for preventative service. These rediculous charges for 15k, 30k service etc. are just that - rediculous. It is not required under the warranty that the manufacturer perform preventative service, and mine is done by myself or my indie, depending on the service.

corvette

It appears VW is recalling all Passats and Audi A4's from 1998-2004 which were equipped with 1.8T engines. They were spec'd with smaller filters and dino oil with 5,000 mile changes or longer, which led to oil gelling/sludge. The fix is a change in specifications to require a synthetic oil be used. So, if you own one of these cars, your $30 oil change just went up to $65 or so...

Part of the reason for the high service costs is that you will require an independant who is familiar with VW's. The only places that changed the oil in my Jetta were the dealer and myself. Most cars don't have a cartridge filter that must be drained before removal, or an underbelly pan that must be taken off, or o-rings that must be changed, each time the oil is changed. Dealer service on any make is going to be a bit expensive. The difference is that it's no trouble to have my oil changed at a carefully-selected discount store, if I'm driving a more common car like a Camry or Taurus, so I'm not paying $55 for my 10,000 mile interval oil change and wheel rotation. (By far the cheapest of the VW services - figure $170 for the 20,000 and $350 for the 40,000.)

corvette

...didn't push extra service, other than putting a 3k or 5k oil change sticker in the windshield on a car spec'd for 10k oil changes. They were still crummy in their own right, though.

Most service schedules are pretty simple nowadays, like VW's 10/20/40/repeat. My Altima is 7500 oil and tire rotation, 15k pollen filter, 30k air filter, 60k coolant (30k thereafter), and 105k spark plugs.

holenone79

Does anybody have a trouble free passat with over 50000 miles on it? If you follow this forum, it will lead you to think that there is no such thing as a long term reliable passat. We have heard from all the complainers, now its time for the other side to be heard---if there is one.

alfox

is required at 20k and 40k that costs $170/$350 to perform? My owner's manual is out in the parking lot, but if memory serves we're talking oil/filters and checking things. That's not $350 worth of service in my view, when I can have an independant mechanic do the rest for under $100. Most of the checks are done every time my car is serviced anyway.

As for finding an indie who is competent to service VW's, I had no difficulty using the guys I've used for many years. These cars are hardly exotics, not a great deal unlike similar cars of the same age. Any shop with the appropriate equipment to scope a Camry and an Accord will be able to handle a Passat without any difficulty. Those without such equipment aren't in the business. What one must look for is an independant mechanic who has the integrity to find out what the vehicle's specs are and order tha Mann filters or whatever are required for the car. Mine stock them for me.

fish8

Regarding the "fix": Is that a VW specified fix? or is that what you are suggesting? Will the dealers now be advising synthetic oil changes for all 1.8t equiped engines?

fish8

I agree with you about finding a independent mechanic that stocks filters that are VW spec.

20K/40K Service: You are correct...most of the items done at these services are all "checks". I know they advise you to change oil/filter, cabin air filter and rotate tires. I believe at the 40K they advise you to replace spark plugs, air filter and brake fluid at the 2 yr mark despite mileage.

alfox

that priced changing my plugs was Mazda for my '90 626. They wanted $450 for a "tune up!" Cheesh - there were only 4 of 'em!! I figured I didn't need diamond-tipped plugs, so I took it to a place where I had had some work done on an older car before, where they told me it didn't need plugs. Been taking my business there ever since, including the fleet I managed from work.

corvette

20k includes cabin air filter replacement (probably $50 for just the filter at the dealer) and check for fluid leaks, headlamp adjustment. I never paid for that one at the dealer, so I was guesstimating the $170 figure. 40k includes all that plus air filter, check belts, replace platinum-tipped spark plugs ($14 each x 6), and check ATF level.

VW has book rates for time on each service, and dealers will generally multiply the allotment by their hourly rate to obtain the labor charge for a particular service. If the 40k takes two hours x $90 per hour, it's $180 with no parts. I think the book rate is more like 2.5 hours, but you get the jest.

frank_c

VW just agreed to buy back my '03 Jetta. I will take delivery of a new Jetta. Does anyone have advice on the following two issues:

1. What is VW's policy on the returned car in terms of "reasonable wear and tear"? Similar to a lease?

2. What are the implications for the car's registration? Insurance is easy to convert. But will the local DMV try to charge a tax for the "new" car?

Thanks,
Frank

driftracer

they do an "MSRP swap" where they take a car just like yours and replace the VIN # of the old car with the one of the new car on your finance contract, if you financed.

My question, being in the lemon law field, why would you want to get bitten twice? Next to Kias and Hyundais, the cars I see the most are VW products, and that speaks volumes given their relatively low sales volume compared to other cars in the market. Can't you opt for the money instead, and buy something else? Most state lemon laws allow for either/or, being buyback or refund.

The fact is, I'm totally shocked that VW stepped up and is doing a buyback without a year's worth of litigation - that's the normal case here in the Northeast.

corvette

One of my friends is about to buy a 2004 Jetta TDI PD. I told him about the special PD oil that's required, half the dealers are clueless to it, etc., did all I could to talk him out of it (I owned a 1999.5 VR6), but people sometimes hear what they want to hear...

driftracer

oil, but I've yet to see a TDI Volkswagen in a lemon law case!

toms

I have a 99 GLS with 1.8T and manual transmission that has been trouble free. My 90 and 95 Honda Accords cost more to maintain and had many more problems during the warranty period. I think the Passat is a great car. It's a great car to drive and feels much safer and more solid than the Hondas.
I just purchased a 2004 Passat GLX wagon with 4motion. So far this is a fantastic car.

bjbird2

VW just sent me a check for $351.44 as part of a settlement of the ignition coil class action!

alfox

I have a '00 GLS V6 wagon that has been nearly flawless at 71k. Passats reliability is generally rated about average overall. Don't let the Jetta/Golf/1.8t troubles suck down the rep for the whole brand.

kinct

I have a 99 Passat with 143k+ miles and it's basically trouble free. The one hassle I do have is that the headlight (low-beam) dies far too often. The passenger side replaced only once (maybe around 100k miles), but the driver side I have had to replace around 5 times. They clearly have a problem there.

Beyond that, I'm a very happy camper.

Re the oil sludging problem, I have mostly used synthetics since around 20 or 25k miles. A few times a shop used Castrol turbo oil (non synth). I change my own every 5k or so miles. I have now switched over to one of the specifically recommended synth oils (Mobil 0w40).

I'm hoping to go at least 250k miles on the car.

corvette

>>>the headlight (low-beam) dies far too often<<<

Any condensation in the lens? If not, check the grounds & other connections. I know this was a problem on the Beetles.

luckyjedi

Seems most everyone who has trouble is with the 1.8 engine and is usualy with the sludging of oil. If you use synthetic as recommended it seems everything should be fine. In anycase I am going to purchase a 2004 glx 4motion sedan. Does anyone know any common issues with this car? If so please let me know so I can move to another car before its too late.

bpeebles

For the 1.8T Audi engine;
Anyone that ignores using the recommended lubricant (full synthetic engine oil) or fuel (premium) should not complain very loudly.

One reason I opted to NOT get the 1.8T Audi engine is because of the requirement for premium fuel.

Surely folks are not blindly spending 20K$ for a vehicle without knowing what it will cost to properly maintian it?

grbeck

bpeeples: "Surely folks are not blindly spending 20K$ for a vehicle without knowing what it will cost to properly maintian it?"

Unfortunately, the answer to that question is "yes" in far too many cases.

anonymousposts

People should research required maintenance. However doesn't VW offer free maintenance now? Most people would see that and not think anything else about it. And shouldn't the VW dealers be using Synthetic if it's that important to this engine?

driftracer

that the maintenance is at 5k, 10k, and 20k, with no provisions in between - given that these engines consume oil to the tune of a quart per 1,000 miles, additional oil has to be added and/or other oil changes have to be done.

corvette

No free maintenance on VW's - I think it ended for the 2001 model year. All VW's with the 1.8T engine call for oil changes every 5k (not sure about Audis), the 2.0, VR6, and TDI only require it every 10k; the Passat V6 is also 5K. The 2.0 is the only engine where regular fuel is recommended - TDI uses diesel and V6, VR6, and 1.8T recommend premium.

bpeebles

I beleive that you are getting confused. Do not forget that one of the benifets to VW is the wide selection of engine options. (4 of them) It is not fair to suggest that ALL of them consume oil.

As far as I am aware, only the base 2.0L engine has a tendancy to consume oil... and this has been shown to be related to NOT following the break-in procedure. It has been known for at least 30 years that not properly breaking in an engine (seating the rings) can result in an oil-consuming engine. Some engine-deisgns are more susceptible to poor break-in procedures.

VWs come from the factroy with 'special' break-in oil in the crankcase. It MUST remain in the engine during the entire break-in process. Those folks that ignore the oil-change regimen that the German engineers specify are asking for touble. (ie... changing the oil too OFTEN may not be desirable)

Even the new Hondas have a 10K, 20K 30K recommended oil change. (Not even the 5K that VW has for the break-in oil)

corvette

In drift's defense, I recall that he has seen 1.8T engines with oil consumption issues. Those issues are not as severe or widespread as the old 2.0's were. The new (2003+) 2.0's are reported to be "fixed" by some magic and no longer have the oil consumption problem. It's a weak engine and I wouldn't want one anyway.

driftracer

No, not at all, and to directly conflict with your statement, I rarely see 2.0 oil comsumption issues - the massive oil consumption problames are only in the 1.8T, generally - not in the VR6 or TDI engines, either...

I do lemon law cases for a living, and I see these continually.

"and this has been shown to be related to NOT following the break-in procedure"

Sorry, wrong again - if the consumer didn't folow break-in or maintenance procedures, VW certainly wouldn't be doing buybacks and breach of warranty payouts! They could, legitimately, tell the consumer to pack sand, since warranty-mandated maintenance procedures weren't followed.

No confusion here at all - if I was confused, I'd be out of a job.

villalobos

Not true, the oil consumtpion affected the 2.0 L mainly. There were issues with the way the engine was built (1999-2001 i believe). My 2.0L was sipping oil like I sip beer. . The result has been a dead catalytic converter at 50k. The culprit was a piston ring put on upside down supposedly.. I was told it was an issue with the 2.0L only.
The 1.8T had issues with the ignition coils (not at all related).

wetwillie

"No, not at all, and to directly conflict with your statement, I rarely see 2.0 oil comsumption issues - the massive oil consumption problames are only in the 1.8T, generally - not in the VR6 or TDI engines, either..."

Your experience is anecdotal. The oil consumption problem is problematic for the 2.slow engine only.
The 1.8 had ignition coil sourcing problems - not oil consumption! Check in with the VW Vortex web site. It is customer based, has no agenda and represents a sampling large enough to influence VW North America.

driftracer

checking my data base over the last 4 years - OK, 468 VW oil consumption cases, 390 involving 1.8t engines, 42 involving the 2.0, the rest are the older 1.8.

How many cases do you have in your personal files, that you've been involved in, to draw from?

Plenty of ignition coil problems, no doubt - plenty to go around, all motors involved.

wetwillie

which way the wind blows" (sorry bob)

"How many cases do you have in your personal files, that you've been involved in, to draw from?"

You're joking, right? You actually think I need personal exposure to the cases to have credibility?

I understand your personal investment with these issues makes it difficult to accept information to the contrary, but c'mon man, access to information is a GOOD thing.

A cursory look on the net reveals: "In March 2001 VW issued Technical Service Bulletin 1701-01, "Oil Consumption, Evaluating." It describes a process for testing the oil consumption in your 2.0 engine."

There is no such TSB for the 1.8T. I'll end it for me right here - won't take up any more of your time.

driftracer

for an instant, willie -

I'm being told I'm "confused" and wrong, and I've handled hearly 500 of these cases and I don't think that's the case.

No doubt VW issued TSBs, but that has no bearing at all as to whether I'm seeing complaints and cases for the 1.8T. Access to information IS a good thing, and believe me, I'm inundated with information of this and many other subjects. If I spent less time reading, I'd get more work done!

bridgeview

I have the same radio problem with my Passat - it is brand new and AM sucks and FM is intermittent. I do not have On-Star so that is not a good excuse. Were they able to fix yours?

bjbird2

Driftracer,

Do you have similar files in your data base the for the Toyota engine sludge problems or the Honda transmission problems?

driftracer

I have NEVER seen a legitimate Toyota sludge case - in fact, I was on a panel and reviewed over 180 cases to certify a class-action suit. I recommended against it, because I couldn't find a case where the owner hadn't followed the manufacturer's maintenance requirements.

Secondly, out of 12 Honda cases (in 5,269 and counting), I've had ONE Honda transmission case. Failure on an Odyssey at 34k.

bjbird2

Interesting, if you read the Honda and Toyota boards, I would guess that the problems were very prevalent. Consumer Reports polled 675,000 people, and the reliability reports for the 03" Passat 4 and 6 cyl.(the last year in their charts) are equal to the 03' Accord's and Camry's reliability. Do you think they are wrong? Where do you suggest we go to get real world information on vehicle reliability? Obviously you've had some experience, but your stats don't seem to reflect those in Consumer Reports.

driftracer

surveys deal only with initial quality - also, you have to take into account, on more long-term surveys, that the majority of owners don't respond - most people are too involved or self-important, so you only get the folks who are fanatically happy, or very angry - either way, you're not getting a fair cross-section.

There is absolutely no possible way that, in the real world, and based on the complaints I see daily, that the Passat, or any other VW product, is anywhere near the reliability, cost of maintenance (after warranty), and long-term usage of any Honda or Toyota. It just doesn't happen.

That being said, I love VW products, having owned 4 air cooled and 6 water cooled VWs, most recently being a 2002 GTI that I had for a demo (for 8k miles). You just can't group them in the same league as most Japanese makes, unfortunately.

bjbird2

The Passat is much more fun to drive than any of the Japanese cars, including my last Infiniti. In fact, the Passat does everything I want a sedan to do, it has good handling, great gas mileage, feels very tight and responsive, acceleration is good, and I admire the design every time I look at it. The interior (where I spend most of my time) is by far best in class. Improved reliability would be a plus.
I can't discount Consumer Reports reliability ratings because of the high numbers of respondents. I place more faith in their high numbers than your relatively small sampling. You probably see the worst of what's out there, not a cross-section.

driftracer

I'll beg to differ - the ones I DON'T see are the ones that aren't problematic and the ones I'd recommend to friends and family. I see bunches of VW products. I see very few Hondas and Toyotas - seeing very few of them, in my line of work, excites me.

I'm still trying to discern the "more fun to drive" notion - these are appliance vehicles, not sports cars. More fun to drive, to ME, means it starts every time I hit the key and I don't spend days in a rental because my ride is in for repairs - VW fails THAT "more fun to drive" test, unless you like driving an Enterprise rental instead of your Passat, Golf, or Jetta.

As for my opinion, do what you like - it's my opinion, not Consumer Reports - unlike Consumer Reports, however, it can't be bought or influenced.

My opinion only - your mileage may vary.

bjbird2

You're right, the Toyotas and Hondas are appliances, that is, until the recent generation of Accords, but the Passat is not at all boring. It's a sports sedan that many experts who make a living road testing rate at the top for drivability. In the latest Consumer Reports, the Passat is rated third behind BMW and Acura, ahead of Lexus, Accord, Mercedes, Lincoln, Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda, Nissan, Saab, Pontiac, and Suburu. This is a car that's on a 7 year old platform when most of the others are new!
If you don't get it after driving one, then I probably won't be able to explain it to you.

driftracer

beginning in 1992 until the present. I certainly don't see them at my SCCA autocross events. I don't see Accords or Camrys, either, though.

Sporty feel when driving is but one aspect of vehicle ownership - Ferraris drive like a sexual experience, but they continually break - it's part of the "mystique". I don't want any "mystique" in a family car, sports car, or truck that my family and I would use as a daily driver - no thank you.

I don't want my wife or kids stranded, I don't want to know the Enterprise office manager by his/her first name, and after spending 10 years in the car business, knowing the names and ages of my VW service advisor's kids is not something I'm interested in - I'm sure he's a great guy and has great kids - I just don't want that factor as part of my vehicle ownership story.

Nope, no "mystique" for me.

bjbird2

There's no "mystique", there's nothing mystical about it at all. The Passat is just a great car to drive, period. I'm not talking about SCCA events, I really don't care about those, just ordinary everyday driving. I've had over 35 cars, and the Passat by far the best all around car for the price that I've ever owned, a great value. As far as being "stranded", I've never had that happen. I've had it in the dealer for a total of 2 days, once for the notorious coils, once for a noise in the suspension. I was never stranded, I drove the car in for service and was given a loaner. A small inconvenience, but a minor price to pay for a car that is so enjoyable in every aspect.
Apparently a lot of people who are more authoritative than I am agree with me since the Passat is consistently rated at the top, including the site that you're on, Edmunds.

driftracer

to the rule, and I have stats on the 184 Passat cases I've handled. I respect the fact that you're enamoured with your vehicle and we'll simply agree to disagree.