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Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic

124

Comments

  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    I'm sorry, I did overstate it. Your numbers do work out if one puts the difference between purchase prices into a good investment and keep the car and the investment long enough.

    I do think that's reaching, though. Seems like a very long was 'round the mulberry bush to neutralize the resale price difference. The strategy fails if the car is totalled. And requires commitment to driving an old, high milage car, which is counter productive if 'fun to drive' is the original priority.
  • dudkadudka Posts: 451
    The only way to get ABS on P5 is to get a package with side airbags. The side air is a $200 option in the Si, as ABS is standard. Sunroof is also standard on the Si, while to get the sunroof on P5 you have to get it as a package with 6 cd changer. What if I am not into changers? I like my MP3 stereo better than any changer. It holds 10-15 cd's worth of music, and reads out the name of the song and artist. Either way I replaced the stereo in my Si with the MP3 unit and steering wheel mounted remote control.

    The current price on the P5 packaged similarly to the Si is $17,585 (-$2250 rebate OR 0% financing)
    The current price on the Si with optional side air bags (to match P5) is $17,299 with 1.9% financing.

    If both cars start out at the same price, (the difference between $17585 (let's say you go for 0% and forego the rebate) and $17,299 is negligible) and after 1 year the Si is worth $14,000 while P5 is worth $10,421 you tell me which has better resale value.

    Even if you do take the rebate and birng the price of P5 down to $15335 (at 6% APR, or pay cash), after 1 year you still lose over $5000, while the Si has only lost $3000. $2000 is pretty big chink of change. The only advantage P5 has over Si is the 5 door configuration, that is if you really need 5 doors. I am not going to mention Si's HP advantage over P5, as well as Recarro seats with suede, and really neat shifter with really really really smooth engagement. If there were a 5 door Honda Civic available in the US (available elsewhere), it would have decimated Matrix/Vibe, Protege5, and Focus ZX5 sales.
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    "after 1 year the Si is worth $14,000 while P5 is worth $10,421 you tell me which has better resale value."

    Yes, its true. If you only keep your car 1 year (or even 3) the Honda is better to buy. BUT it also lost $3000 so you could have almost leased a BMW for the same time and then got a new one at lease end. Its relative. All cars, short of exotics, lose value. Under 3-5 years its just better to lease so you really cannot compare that to buying both. In particular when cars have good resale like Hondas. If you like having new cars all the time (3 years or so) over saving money Hondas make sense to lease, not buy. The lease plans for Hondas are almost too good to be true.

    So if you want to talk short run then I will make the arguement that its really silly to buy either (the Mazda in particular) when you can lease them for less in the span of 1 year. The "buy" new does not factor in for me unless I plan on at least 5 years.

    Also, the Si is indeed different than the P5. It does a lot of things BETTER. Better engine, better performance, more aftermarket stuff, etc. The P5 on the other hand can actually carry 5 people in relative comfort, and cargo, and still appeals to the over 30 crowd. It really depends on what you want.

    If I was going to get a P5 to only keep it for a year I would not get a new one, I would get a used one and let someone else to take the loss. If I were going to get a Si to keep for only a year I would have to lease.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "If there were a 5 door Honda Civic available in the US (available elsewhere), it would have decimated Matrix/Vibe, Protege5, and Focus ZX5 sales."

    What? The Si is here now, priced about the same, and I don't see it tearing into ZX3 sales.

    The fact is, Honda dropped the ball on this one. If they suddenly decide to enter this market by bringing a 5-door Civic over here they WILL have to play catch-up. The hatch market is growing evidenced by larger cars getting 3/5-door variants a la the Malibu and M6. Those who don't get in early will be left behind.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    In the real world, leasing is a loser financially. The main benefit is convenience in claiming a business expense.

    We keep coming back to the Pro5 being the best choice IF it's unique benefits are one's highest priority. Well, duh. Need rear seat doors in deciding Pro5 vs. Si? It's gotta be the Pro5.
  • smashersmasher Posts: 31
    > The fact is, Honda dropped the ball on this one. If they suddenly decide to enter this market by bringing a 5-door Civic over here they WILL have to play catch-up. The hatch market is growing evidenced by larger cars getting 3/5-door variants a la the Malibu and M6. Those who don't get in early will be left behind.

    Why would they have to play catch-up? Lord knows they have the name recognition, and the reputation. Believe it or not, Honda's American market is the only thing keeping the company afloat at this point. If they brought a 5-door over here with the Civic name, it'd do great. But it would probably also cut into their CR-V sales.

    You forget that by the time these cars get here (to the North American market), they're already mature products. They're not unproven at all; they've been around as long as the sedan variants have, just not in the US. The P5, the Civic 5-door--these are all proven models. Hatches are big business in other markets, especially in Europe, where sedans are seen as an impractical body style, especially as an only family car. In the UK market, the sales figures are reversed: the hatches are the primary market, the sedans the niche. (The Jetta wagon is known as the Golf wagon in the UK. The Golf brand name is more marketable than the sedan version (known as the Bora) and enjoys more name recognition.) Either they're just marketed poorly here, or SUVs are overhyped here, or a bit of both. (I still think SUVs make terrible everyday vehicles except for a small minority of buyers. The only reason they're pushed here is because of the huge profit margin for automakers. IMO the worst trends in the 1990s US auto market was the proliferation of SUVs and the sedanification of small cars. But that's a subject for a different thread.)

    I'm interested to see if VW brings over its Touran MPV; that'd be a great alternative to the Matrix/Vibe/PT Cruiser. And a subject for a different thread....
  • dudkadudka Posts: 451
    Leasing is not an option for me. It may work for people who base their life on monthly payments. I can understand losing money on depreciation alone, but to add extra profit for the leasing company is an insult to the injury. Like said before, leasing works if you can wirte it off, I can't.
    Leasing: You have to have some sort pf downpayment, usually $2000, security, and such. After paying payments for 3 years, you have nothing to show for it. A 12-24 month lease rates are ridiculously high. Money factors, when converted to APR are much higher than Finance rates.

    Financing: All I paid out of pocket was sales taxes and registration, everything else was financed at 1.9%. After 8 months I have a $12.8K payoff and $14K trade in value. I am already $1200 on the positive. That number is for trade in, if I were to sell it privately, I can possibly fetch $15K, putting me at $2200 in the positive.

    I am anxious to see what I can get in 3 years. I will owe $5500 (according to payment schdule at honda owners link).
  • iamziamz Posts: 542
    Edmunds 2003 slalom numbers are bogus (opinion here). How on earth could the Corolla come out on top with 63.3 seconds. Was the same person driving both cars (or all the cars for that matter)? From what I remember, in the auto mags, the P5 could always pull more G's and had the maximum cornering speed. I'm guessing they were using a protege ES, but that should handle about the same as the P5.
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    Don't forget the 'lease acquisition fee', usually $300 - $500 on the front end. Money down the terlet. You'd have to have an incredible marginal tax rate to get past the costs, even if you can write off the lease.
  • dinu01dinu01 Posts: 2,586
    A Corolla cannot pull more Gs or out-slalom a PRO ES - I have the ES and drove a friend's 2003 Corolla many times - that car feels like it's ready to tip over when you put it on a ramp at above the posted limit. Neve had this issue with the PRO. So much for that comparo...

    Dinu
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    if you must have a new car every 3 years AND you like brands that have high resale AND you want low monthly payments AND you dont mind paying to drive without owning AND dont drive a lot.

    Does not fit me but it does work for lots of people. Some people feel better if they have the latest and greatest and leasing is one way to get this.

    To me it would feel like I was living beyond my means but not everyone feels that way.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    You've gotta admit, Honda dropped the ball on the Civic Si. It doesn't come close to what those of us who've owned them in the past expected.

    The engine is great but the overall set-up is a step down from the previous Si.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "If they brought a 5-door over here with the Civic name, it'd do great. But it would probably also cut into their CR-V sales."

    You just explained why a Civic hatch would have to play catch-up. The CR-V and Element. Both are priced right in line with a well equipped Civic. Why would you buy an underpowered small car when you can have something much larger with near identical driving dynamics for about the same price? It would be a big risk that the other models mentioned didn't have to venture into.

    Honda is not afraid of a risk though. Look at the Element. The people they are marketing it to are not buying it. Fortunately for them older folks (who apparently are losing their vision at a rapid pace) are picking up the slack (Or is that slackers ;) )?

    "You forget that by the time these cars get here (to the North American market), they're already mature products. They're not unproven at all; they've been around as long as the sedan variants have, just not in the US."

    I'm aware of that but it is irrelevant. If Honda doesn't think people will want to buy it they probably won't bring it over. They must have their reasons.

    Looks are important over here. I don't know anyone who looks at the Si and says "Wow, what a great looking car!" If the thing looks like a small Aztec, well you know the rest. ;)
  • smashersmasher Posts: 31
    Yes, they did drop the ball with the Si. Great engine and shifter, good body packaging, but disappointing handling and some nits with build quality.

    I was thinking more about the packaging/body style/body integrity than its Si-ness. I think that was an error more of marketing than anything else. They just didn't spec it right. The engineering and overall design are there, and it can't be mistaken for anything but a Honda--unlike the Civic coupe/sedan and the new Accords, which are getting more boring and unrecognisible as time goes on. But again, the only thing which failed the Si was the way it was spec'ed (blame the bean counters and the marketing people for that), not its basic design.

    It goes to show you can have a great engineering and design team, but still ruin a car's prospects if you misread its market (as Honda did with the Si), or screw up on quality control (as VW has with the Golf/Jetta/Beetle).

    Have you seen the 5-door? It's a much more attractive package (looks a lot less like a Festiva), and would make a great sporty hatch/wagon/whatever. And it has that Honda family look.

    But would it sell in the North American market? Would they want it to? Baggs, you bring up a good point: Honda has already saturated that market with small SUVs. I think it's such a bummer that the only way to sell a practical car in the US is to truckify it: make it less space-efficient and give it a high center of gravity (like the CR-V), or give it plastic cladding, suicide doors, the rubber floor from a VW bus and a bunch of blind spots (like the Element). Arrrrgh!

    Funny (yet somewhat sad) story: when I was test driving cars, I tried out a 3-year-old Civic hatch. During the drive I got sideswiped by a Honda Element; the guy was pulling out of an office park and just didn't see me coming.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    Why would you buy an underpowered small car when you can have something much larger with near identical driving dynamics for about the same price?

    Wellllll... if they included the engine from the current Si it wouldn't be under powered. Seeing as the CR-V and the Si have the same engine. I know the CR-V is underpowered for your tastes but, I love ours.

    I don't see a 5 door playing much of a part in Element/CR-V sales. My P5 can't even come close to doing what our CR-V can. It wouldn't hurt the CR-V/Element anymore than the Trib/Escape are hurt by the Focus Wagon.

    I love my P5. Love it. Love it. Love it. (This from a long-time Honda guy.)
  • rivertownrivertown Posts: 928
    if cost isn't an issue, LOL.

    IMO, the biggest marketing flup with the Si is the MSRP (in combination with the Honda rep for selling close to sticker). I wonder how many buyers simply passed at $19.5K.

    I agree, the new gen Si is not Si like.
  • dudkadudka Posts: 451
    <<Wellllll... if they included the engine from the current Si it wouldn't be under powered. Seeing as the CR-V and the Si have the same engine. I know the CR-V is underpowered for your tastes but, I love ours. >>

    Si and CR-V do not share the same engine. The Si engine is from the base RSX. While RSX Type S engine and 6 speed tranny are a direct replacement into the Si, it would make the Si Civic Type R.

    CR-V/Element/Accord/TSX share the same engine block but different heads to achievive what is needed for a particulr vehicle.

    Overseas CR-V uses K20 engine block, same as US Si, RSX's and Japan's Stream.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "I don't see a 5 door playing much of a part in Element/CR-V sales. My P5 can't even come close to doing what our CR-V can. It wouldn't hurt the CR-V/Element anymore than the Trib/Escape are hurt by the Focus Wagon."

    A 5-door wouldn't play a part in Element/CR-V sales. I said the Element/CR-V would play a big part in 5-door sales. Honda would have a hard time selling 5-doors with Elements and CR-V's on the lots. Their prices would be too close. The Element and CR-V are pretty good bargains in the small SUV class. The Civic is not a bargain any more. Have you priced one lately? My wife priced a 2003 EX with all the options our 96 has and the sticker was over $20,000!

    You can get a CR-V EX, which has more power, more room, more comfort, etc., for about $1500 more. Who in their right mind (and here in N.A.) would buy the smaller less refined car if that's the case?

    smasher,
    I have to admit, the 5-door Civic does look better than the Si. However, it's still the ugly duckling when compared to the P5 if you ask me. Others might see differently though.

    "During the drive I got sideswiped by a Honda Element; the guy was pulling out of an office park and just didn't see me coming."

    See?! I told you the people buying them were losing their vision! :)
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    $20,000+ for a loaded Civic EX? Not around here. Here you can pick them up for $18,000 or less. IMO the lower models are the only ones that would be cross-shopped. And in that case you'd get a lot less going with a CR-V LX or (Whatever the lower Element is) than going with the upper end EX Civic.

    Get this. A guy at work just bought a Civic EX sedan auto for $16,300 out the door! (No SAB) He bought it in Toledo. (About a 75 mile drive from here.) I don't know what you'd put on it to drive the price over $20,000.

    Just speculation anyway so who really cares?
  • dudkadudka Posts: 451
    I don't think a 5 door Civic would cannibalize CR-V/Element sales. Civic Ex 4 door ($15,300) costs more than Accord DX ($14,500). The DX Accord is only slight less loaded. DX does not have A/C, power doow locks, cruise, nor sunroof. Everything else found on Civic EX is there: ABS, power windows...
    Do we see a lot of people cross shopping Civic with Accord?

    Focus ZX5 ($16,443 ($3000 reabte not included) premium sport), and Matrix ($15,597 XR FWD) certainly did not cannibalize Escape ($16,300 value FWD) and RAV4 ($16,541 Base FWD) sales.
  • ashutoshsmashutoshsm Posts: 1,007
    ... is just an advertising leader, so Honda dealers can advertise their "As low as 14,499" sales in your Sunday newspapers. Almost none are built, and almost no one cares to buy one. If someone had exactly that budget, though, they might want it - most peole will throw in the extra $ and get the LX.

    And if someone notices the similar prices, and cross shops the Civic EX and Accord DX, they'll give up as soon as they find they have to compromise on a lot of things, including availability!
  • smashersmasher Posts: 31
    "I have to admit, the 5-door Civic does look better than the Si. However, it's still the ugly duckling when compared to the P5 if you ask me. Others might see differently though."

    Yeah, but if you want something which doesn't look as good, doesn't handle as well, and costs more, that thing is a winner!

    It's interesting to see the small wagons going toward the microvan design (Civic 5-door, VW Touran, Matrix/Vibe, PT Cruiser). Even the new Mazda3 looks blockier and more microvannish than the P5.

    I'm just not keen on trucklike vehicles (like the CR-V, Escape, Tribute, RAV4, etc.), even if they're based on cars. It's kind of a shame the Impreza (base model or WRX) doesn't have more competition in the States. How cool would it be to have the Familia SP20 here--P5 with MSP drivetrain and AWD? Mmmmm....
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "Even the new Mazda3 looks blockier and more microvannish than the P5."

    That seems to be the general consensus around the M3 threads as well and it's exactly why I won't cross the 5-door SVT Focus off of my list just yet. I've already crossed the Vibe off though. Just can't get into it.

    "$20,000+ for a loaded Civic EX? Not around here."

    It's probably not around here either, but it is what the sticker says. The CR-V's sticker is only about $1500 more. Both EX's too.

    "I don't know what you'd put on it to drive the price over $20,000."

    Security system, 15" aluminum wheels, SAB's, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, floor mats, cargo net, AT. I think that came out to about $20,100. Most of that comes standard on a CR-V EX doesn't it?

    "Focus ZX5 ($16,443 ($3000 rebate not included) premium sport), and Matrix ($15,597 XR FWD) certainly did not cannibalize Escape ($16,300 value FWD) and RAV4 ($16,541 Base FWD) sales."

    To get the same options as the ZX5 premium in an Escape you're looking at anywhere from $23,000 - $25,000 for the latter. Factor in rebates and the difference is nearly $10,000! It's not like that with the two Honda's.

    I'm staying away from comparing "what I can get at my dealer" prices because there is too much variation from region to region.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    I'm staying away from comparing "what I can get at my dealer" prices because there is too much variation from region to region.

    Few people pay sticker. And the fact is, you'd really have to work to buy a Civic for $1500 less than a CR-V. (And you'd be silly to do so.) They charge $80+ for floor mats, does anyone fall for that? www.manhonda.com will sell them to you shipped to your door for $50.
     
    To get the same options as the ZX5 premium in an Escape you're looking at anywhere from $23,000 - $25,000 for the latter. Factor in rebates and the difference is nearly $10,000! It's not like that with the two Honda's.

    Well, I just went to ford.com and priced a Focus ZTW wagon.

    Weather Package $150.00
     - Heated Seats
    - Heated Side Mirror

       Sport Group $525.00
     - 16" Five-Spoke Alloy Wheels
    - Fog Lamps
    - AM/FM Stereo 6-Disc In-Dash CD Player with Digital Clock & 4 Speakers
    - Driver Side Lumbar Support
    - Tachometer
    - Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel

     Options/Upgrades
       Leather Seating Surfaces $695.00
       Manual 5-Speed Transmission ($815.00)
       Advance Trac $1,625.00
       Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
       Perimeter Alarm System $125.00
       Power Moonroof $595.00
       Side Impact Air Bags $350.00
       Traction Control
    Total MSRP is $21,420.00

    A similarly equipped Escape (in my area) per kbb.com is $24,580. Not a $10,000 difference. Not even $5,000.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "And the fact is, you'd really have to work to buy a Civic for $1500 less than a CR-V. (And you'd be silly to do so.)"

    My wife paid sticker for our Civic. She was a 22 year old fresh out of college and wanted a "cute" car NOW. She went by herself one night, without telling anyone, and got royally screwed (but she was happy). She's not the only one I know who did this either. It happens more than you think and yes it is "silly". Fortunately she's older and much wiser now. Mostly because she married me. ;)

    "Total MSRP is $21,420.00

    A similarly equipped Escape (in my area) per kbb.com is $24,580. Not a $10,000 difference. Not even $5,000."

    The previous example was a ZX5 premium not a wagon because the Honda example included a 5-door Civic and a CR-V/Element. The wagon is a different story altogether. I also went by sticker not kbb's version of Edmunds' "what I can get in my area" price, aka TMV. Speaking of that, why did you present the Focus' sticker price but then used the "what I can get in my area" price for the Escape?

    You also added the $1600+ Advance Track to the Focus. Escape's have no stability control system yet.

    You're still looking at a much larger price gap than that of the Honda's even if it isn't $10,000. Rebates will only make the difference grow because I think the Focus' rebate is almost double that of the Escape right now. We all know the Honda's do not have rebates to play around with.

    The same logic that applies to the Focus/Escape applies to the P5/Tribute.

    Honda people tend to stick with Honda's. If you go to a Honda store looking for a Honda you probably will cross shop a CR-V/Element with a 5-door Civic. They are closer in comparison than any other Honda's at this time. An Accord hatch or wagon would change thing dramatically.

    When you go to a Ford store you will cross shop the Escape with a Focus wagon or Taurus wagon because those are all similar in price, features, etc.. The hatch versions of the Focus, ZX5 included, don't come into play because they are a lot cheaper to buy than the others mentioned above.
  • smashersmasher Posts: 31
    "Honda people tend to stick with Honda's. If you go to a Honda store looking for a Honda you probably will cross shop a CR-V/Element with a 5-door Civic."

    That's probably true. But I think people have a pretty good idea of what they're looking for by the time they visit a showroom, especially these days. Sporty 3- or 5-door? Small sedan? Compact SUV? Minivan? If they're a loyal Honda buyer, they may walk in and say, "I need a minivan. What have you got?"

    I think VW people tend to be loyal, too (though their recent QC problems may be testing that loyalty). You may be tempted to cross-shop a Golf, Jetta and Touran (if it were available), or move up to a Passat. That's what my sister and brother-out-law did: after a long line of Sciroccos and Jettas (and a visit to the Dark Side with a Chevy Surburban), they dumped their SUV (yay!) and got a Passat wagon. They didn't even look at anything else.

    Maybe in a couple of years people will come to their senses and return to passenger cars again. But until then, the dealers will continue to push the SUVs.

    I don't get it myself. When I was looking at Imprezas, the dealer was trying to steer me toward the Forester. When I was looking at the Civic Si, the dealer tried to steer me toward the Element. What gives? Are they trying to move them off the lot (problems selling the things?), or are they getting better profit/incentives to move the big boxes?
  • dinu01dinu01 Posts: 2,586
    Regarding your last comment: YES!!!

    Cars costing more bring in more revenue.

    On a PRO a dealer has $2000 MAX to play with until INV, but on an NSX, Acura has $18.000 CAD!!!!

    Inv: 124K
    MSRP: 142K

    Canadian prices...

    Dinu
  • #noname#noname Posts: 58
    to actually read about a comparison:

    Comparing a P5 to a 2003 Civic of any U.S. sold trim is definitely comparing apples to oranges to bananas. I recently went through the same shopping dilemma and eventually traded in my old &#146;94 Civic Si 3 door for a P5 with an automatic, fully loaded. To put it simply, I outgrew the Civic and the P5 fit the bill for what I needed more than any other car.
    Here&#146;s why:

    1. A compact sedan is just too small for my family of four and a similarly equipped midsize would have been at least $3,000 more expensive than a P5 with a little less than two inches or so in leg and shoulder room to show for it. Yes, I may have gotten a bigger engine with a midsize, but I really don&#146;t need a 200HP rocket to crawl 25mph along jammed freeways on my daily commute.

    2. As a parent, trunk space is a must. The carriage style stroller we push our youngest around in simply wouldn&#146;t fit in the trunk of the Civic so it was out of the running early. The trunk in the P5 is bigger than even the touted trunk of the Toyota Camry (although much of that extra space is positioned vertically) and only a minivan can beat a five-door wagon in terms of versatility. Got stuck with bringing the coolers to the soccer game? No problem!

    Daddy&#146;s tip: Don&#146;t even bother looking at a coupe body style if you have kids or plan to have them in the future, no matter how wonderful the car (Civic Si included). The back seats are pretty hostile environments when you need to install safety seats or extract sleeping children out of them. Taking the kids around in my old 3 door was always an ordeal.

    3. I needed an automatic; my wife can&#146;t/won&#146;t drive a stick. Knowing this, I also knew that I couldn&#146;t trust the horsepower ratings on cars that rely on variable valve timing (VVT) to achieve their maximum horsepower/torque levels like the Civic EX and Matrix/Vibe. It&#146;s well known that ATs suck the performance out of all engines but they seemed to sap more out of the cars with VVT than those without. When I asked I found it has to do with the VVT needing higher revs to be effective and the AT up shifting before giving it a chance work thereby sapping nearly 15 to 20 HP out of the car. I&#146;m not sure if this is correct but it does seem to make sense. My old Civic had a 1.6L VVT and if I up shifted when the revs were below 3,000 the thing couldn&#146;t outrun the joggers along the side of the road.

    Anyway, the 2003 Civic EX has a 1.7L engine, and the 2004 Matrix has a 1.8L. Both require that extra boost the VVT provides to achieve their 130HP ratings. The P5, and Ford Focus for that matter, don&#146;t have VVT. They get their 130HP the old fashioned way, a bigger engine (2.0L for both). It&#146;s something to consider if you need an AT.

    4. Surprisingly reliable. I couldn&#146;t believe the nearly complete absence of posts and TSB&#146;s when I was researching the Protégé line and they&#146;ve been around for five-six years. I was just as surprised as anybody to discover that Mazda makes pretty darn reliable cars despite being owned by Ford. (Sadly, their trucks and SUVs are another story.) How they could ignore this in their marketing campaigns is totally beyond me. What works against the company, however, definitely works for the buyer. Mazdas may be the best kept secret in the industry. Reliable, affordable, fun to drive cars plus the thousands of dollars in incentives they&#146;re offering, it&#146;s really hard to go wrong.

    Things aren&#146;t all roses with a P5, however. The biggest minus for buyers is that it is a lame duck model. Whatever&#146;s left on your dealer&#146;s lot is all you have to choose from because Mazda will be replacing it with a boxier model this fall. The P5 is also has much more road and wind noise at high speeds than either the Civic or Matrix, especially those equipped with a roof rack. When test driving it, make sure you get on the highway and drive it above 50 mph for a while to check it out for yourself. Finally, while you&#146;re investigating the road noise, don&#146;t forget to pay attention to the suspension. All P5&#146;s have a very firm ride. It does soften up a bit after you break the car in, but it will never be something anybody considers soft.

    Oh, just to add my two cents. I&#146;m in the camp that believes that the &#147;highest projected resale value&#148; pitch that Honda and Toyota constantly make is bunk. The biggest thing they fail to mention is that the resale/trade in value you actually get is more dependent on your own sales/negotiating ability than on the actual condition of the car itself. They also tend tout the resale values of &#147;clean&#148; cars rather than the more realistic &#147;average&#148; ones. After someone puts 100K and adds a few dings and scratches on their car would you rate it &#147;clean&#148; and offer blue book for it? Don&#146;t expect the dealers to do it either. Need more proof, check out the &#147;Confessions of a Car Salesman&#148; article on this site.
  • dudkadudka Posts: 451
    Congratulations on your purchase and I am glad that you are happy. Not to pick on you, but this is where most people make a mistake choosing a vehicle.

    <<<<1. A compact sedan is just too small for my family of four and a similarly equipped midsize would have been at least $3,000 more expensive than a P5 with a little less than two inches or so in leg and shoulder room to show for it. Yes, I may have gotten a bigger engine with a midsize, but I really don&#146;t need a 200HP rocket to crawl 25mph along jammed freeways on my daily commute.>>>>

    I understand that most people can't afford to have multiple vehicles, but the family hauler should not be a commuter as well. It is just not practical. Would you walk around with 2 40 lbs cement bags? This is what it equates to to having a family vehicle used for daily commute by one person, unless you are carpooling.

    At least you chose wisely and got a decent compromise between family vehicle and commuter, unfortunately millions of people buy gargantuan SUVs because "it would be nice to take the family out on the weekends" but they also dirve it daily in their 30 mile plus commute from the suburbs.
    Please, I am not trying to offend anyone, just stating my point.

    Just out of curiosity, how much did you get for the 94 Si and how many miles were on it?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    " But I think people have a pretty good idea of what they're looking for by the time they visit a showroom, especially these days."

    There's truth to that too but you pointed out how the salesman may have a different plan.

    Last year my wife an I went to look at 2002 Accords because we thought great deals could be had on them being that the 2003's had already been advertised as "coming soon". Instead of offering us a deal on the Accord the salesman tried to put us in a CR-V. We said NO! Then he tried the Pilot sales pitch (Which included the line "Unlike the CR-V the Pilot's a real truck." Moron.). We said DOUBLE NO!

    It's happened with other brand's too. Ford guy wanted us in an Explorer when we were shopping for our Escape. Mazda guy (most recent) was pushing us toward a Tribute when I test drove a P5 even though he knew we had an Escape. It was parked right in front of the glass walled showroom
    for cryin' out loud!

    I don't know why they do that. I do know that it's really annoying though.

    Why is there no name on post #120? Whomever you are I totally agree with you on the coupe/children issue. We're expecting our first this December and, even though my wife doesn't believe me yet, we need to replace our Civic coupe with something that has four doors. I guess she'll have to learn the hard way. ;) (Don't worry, I'll be nice to her. She is taking care of the hard part after all. But if I could have the baby for her... :) )
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