Oil change/fiascos

gsleve

in what you say particularly "I refuse to own a vehicle where I am tied into Honda fluids, parts etc where no alternative is availaible"

I too disapprove of this tactic centered on more sales forcing the customer to bow to their wishes creating a scare tactics with implications leading the customer to believe that something bad will happen without the use of their proprietary fluids to generate more sales, when the know full well that comparable aftermarket parts will provide like kind and quality for the duration of use, and in some cases better performance and enhancement to the vehicles life.

driftracer

fluid IS totally unique....and you can't get it at Wal-Mart. Oil is oil, as is gear lube, brake fluid, power steering fluid, etc.

vcheng

....the Moss-Magnuson warranty act, applicable to all new car sales, stipulates that the manufacturer cannot specify the use of a specific fluid to maintain warranty unless it is provided free of cost.

Recently, Chrysler has been sued for specifying ATF+4 fluid for its 4 speed automatic transmissions, while preventing third party manufacturers to make and market a similar fluid on the open market.

Perhaps Honda should be next.

armtdm

In Toyota's case it is their Toyota Red Long Life Coolant that is not compatible with anything else and I believe their ATF also on newer cars.

vcheng

...perhaps Toyota should be sued too.

This trend towards "boutique" fluids required for routine maintenance should be deterred, IMO.

swschrad

the virgin unicorns who bring your precious transmission fluid direct from the magic fountains of mount fuji?

0patience

Folks,
I agree with you on the fact that you should be able to purchase fluids for any vehicle anywhere.
But the fact remains that even on the older Hondas, where fluids ARE available, only the factory Honda fluids are safe to use.
I have seen many Hondas, where folks have used aftermarket, approved fluids and had problems. Flushing the system and installing Honda's fluids and the problems went away.
I totally agree that it is an underhanded practice, but you will also notice that Honda is one of the manufacturers who also do not release information to the DIYer.
So, when you make a decision to purchase a vehicle, that is one of the things to consider.

snowman

Honda doesn't release TBs and Recalls (only NHTS has recalls).

0patience

Honda does release TSBs and recalls, just not to the DIYer. NHTSA only lists them, they don't release them. NHTSA gets the recalls and TSBs from the manufacturers.
They can require a manufacturer to have a recall, but the manufactrer still releases them.
The statement that only NHTSA has recalls is not correct.

snowman

I got lazzy to make myself more clear on that. Of course Honda releases TSBs and recalls. TSB titles and recalls are submitted to NHTS. What I meant was the content of the TSB. If your car is out of warranty and trying to fix it yourself then what. I had 91 Accord, tried to get TSB to take it my dealer. Because dealer didn't know anything about it. Honda asked me to ask dealer to call Honda.
I have read postings that people complain about not seeing Honda recall and tsb informations when some sites do used car comaprisons. (I tried to remember where I read but couldn't, but it was in Edmunds).
Trying to make things proprietary is not a good trend for consumers.

imidazol97

The only reason for TSBs not to be public information is to try to control the image of the vehicle (it has fewer recalls and problems than others) and to require people to go through the dealer. In the 80s Honda did recalls on vehicles in for regular service. That way the people didn't know there had been other problems with their car. By requiring people to use Honda for service or losing their warranty coverage, as many people have been (are) made to feel, Honda can control the knowledge people have about the problems with the cars.

Sort of a Microsoft attitude for doing business.

driftracer

liability aspect that you're not considering, though.

Let's say you have an 80,000 mile Honda Accord and your car has a particular symptom. You research the NHTSA site, pull a TSB, go down to the dealer, get a copy of the actual directive from the manufacturer, go home, and work on your car.

Bear in my mind, YOU, not a Honda trained tech did the diagnosis and repair.

There is, shortly thereafter, a system failure related to the area you just worked on and you have an accident (insert your choice of the level of death and destruction here).

Guess who is at fault? Honda, not you.

If I ran a major manufacturing company, I wouldn't give out specific repair instructions to individuals, either.

imidazol97

drift
... and the other manufacturers are giving that information because they too are at fault if you do work on your own car???... LOL

That's really a stretch. A Honda dealer might come up with that kind of justification..., but I don't buy it.

driftracer

it's a STRONG basis for a lawsuit. Looking at today's society, can you really blame them?

imidazol97

Please cite some examples where automobile companies
have been sued under those circumstatces.
Someone working on their own car
Using the fact that a TSB indicates possible problem with
item on which they are doing work
Injury/loss results and companie sued.

driftracer

for a lawsuit. Given today's litigious climate, I can see why corporate lawyers restrict specific information from consumers.

Simply because some nimrod is going to attempt to follow their directions, screw up the job, get hurt, then sue the manufacturer because the manufacturer gave the repair directives.

vcheng

..it is easier to pretend that restriction of any repair/maintenance information promotes "safety" and limits the potential for lawsuits, while maximizing monopoly profits for dealer service franchises has to be good thing, right?

driftracer

I just said that I understand the liability aspects of the situation.

One thing I can guarantee - regardless of how silly we feel a justification is, there's some lowlife citizen who'll sue a company over it.

By the way, isn't this topic about "oil change fiascos"?

imidazol97

"By the way, isn't this topic about "oil change fiascos"?"

I responded to your message
#115 justifying withholding public information about TSBs
Ohters:
#117 Lawsuits and bases thereof
#199 lawsuits

driftracer

just trying to swerve us back on topic before the hosts do.

imidazol97

How frequent are the loose, leaking drain plugs from the fast lube places?

A friend drove his family in the Jetta from Cincy. When he left I noticed fresh oil on the driveway about 6 inch round. I called him, he returned, and I tightened the plug. He didn't seem too worried and the oil change place tried to ttell him it was just the oil that was splattered around when the old oil was drained that had dripped down.

I know fresh oil after 40 years of changing it.
I pictured about 400 miles of driving and being out of oil.

driftracer

where the lube monkeys don't look at the threads and surface for the oil filter and install a new filter over the old rubber gasket. It may not leak immediately, but when it does, you've got about a mile until you break stuff.

I've seen two of those in the last year.

howardpm

I went to get a oil change at Good Year today (usually go to the dealership) anyways they charged me an extra 10 bucks (costing me almost 50 bucks for a regular oil change) for something called a Canister Oil Filter (saying my filter was built onto the engine?) what the heck is this and how come no other place has ever charged me extra?

Thanks

montanafan

The Ecotec 2.2L 4 cylinder engine dosen't use the traditional type oil filter. The traditional filter is a spin on, that mounts externally. A oil change shop has several different manufacturers to choose from and they are available cheap. The 2.2L uses a filter that is inserted into a housing off the engine in the front. The shop you went to charged extra for the extra cost of the filter.

isellhondas

I would guess it's an extra labor charge.

I had no idea any modern car used a cannister type filter. I remember, as a kid, working in a gas station we would get old cars that still had these. We hated to see them come in. They were usually a dirty nasty job to change.

hudrahead

If anything the labor costs on a Ecotec 2.2 oil filter change should be less! The filter is mounted on the front of the engine accessable from the top,mounted upright so no oil is even spilled when replacing. No need to even get under the car, (great for DYI's)take off the top cap of the filter housing,(screws off just like a jar lid) lift out the filter cartridge, drop in the new one, DONE, five minutes tops and NO mess at all.

The filter element does cost a little more tho. Fram @ Wal-Mart about $7.00 compared to most conventional ones which typically cost about $4.00 or so. I also installed a "quick change" oil drain plug on my Vibe. Can change oil in 15 minutes and not even get dirty. I love it !!

HUD :)

Merry Christmas to all !!!

PS, I did not get that 911 I asked Santa for !! LOL !

0patience

Some "canister" filters are in the oil pan, so yes, the labor is more intensive. Not so much the time involved, but the cleanup from the mess it makes changing them.

As for me, I don't care how easy the canister filter is, it gets charged out according to the flat rate and yes, sometimes the filters are more expensive.

isellhondas

We had a customer with an elderly Dodge. This was in the late sixties and the Dodge was something like a 1954 model.

Unlike most of these, this one had a hemi V-8. The cannister filter was jammed on the side of the engine. The center bolt would hit the frame when you took it out making it a nightmare to change. There was a rubber o ring and several washers that had to be lined up just right.

It took a half hour to change it and afterwards it would usually leak.

THAT's not baloney, hudra!

I also remember the V-8 Chevies used a nasty to change cannister filter until the late sixties.

Even the top mounted ones needed to be sucked out with a suction gun to get the old oil and sludge out.

Of course, I'm an old guy and remember these things.

hudrahead

Isell: baloney it IS when applied to the Ecotec motor ! Who cares about the stuff back in the 70's & 80's. I don't think there are many of those sleds still on the roads anyway.

One additional nice thing about the filters on the Ecotec is you can actually get a good look at the filter material & see what, if anything,is gunking up your oil such as metal particles etc.

Isell do you remember the old VW bugs did not even have a filter ? They did have a magnetic drain plug that attracted all the metal coming off those cylinder walls LOL !! Ain't technology wonderful ? You could install a aftermarket cartridge type filter that,of all things, used a roll of toilet paper as the filter media. Change your filter for 10 cents !! Hope you had a great holiday and are all geared up to sell tons of Honda iron in the coming year.

HUD :)

micweb

...on the Ecotec filter. The AC Delco OEM part is definitely superior to the STP I also purchased the same day. And the STP was only a buck or two cheaper.

I think both would work for 3,000 mile oil changes, but the visually apparent build quality on the AC Delco means it is the only one I would leave in for extended intervals.

hudrahead

micweb: I also noticed the Fram filter is "made in England" Not a surprise as the Ecotec engine was developed over there.

The location, ease of change and ability to inspect the internal filter material should be a tip for other mfgs. to follow suit. My son's ZX2 was very difficult to get to the filter and always was a big mess as it was not possible to get it off without spillage. Not fun when hot ! I also found some NAPA filters while on a trip to Ohio. They are identical to the Fram units but had no country or origin listed on the filter or the box they came in.

HUD :)

micweb

In different boxes, different countries of origin. Go figure.

hudrahead

micweb: I know it's a "global market" and all that BUT wouldn't it be nice IF we just made some of this stuff here in the US ? I try. I really try to get stuff for my business from domestic sources but it's getting nearly impossible. Even when you buy so-called brand name items it almost always turns out to be made offshore.
 The day will come when we will be VERY sorry that we have literally given all our technology away to our "friends" who will ultimately jam it (you know where)and have a big laugh as to how big a saps we were.

HUD :)

swschrad

awful, awful. had a friend in HS who put one of those on his corvair. killed it within several months as a result. there's only one place toilet paper goes, and if it is attached to your engine, drags the engine with it.

isellhondas

If installed on a VW, they would drop the oil pressure to dangerous levels.

Another here today, gone tomorrow gimmick.

hudrahead

Isell: You are right,those filters were a joke but can you just imagine how many thousands if not millions of those things that were sold before people caught on to the fact they were useless. The car mags of the time always had big splashy ads for the things and "testimonials" from cab companies and even the US Guvment about how well they worked and how much money you could save.

CU did a test on them and it seems that in about 1 mile of driving they would develope channels in the TP roll and would not filter anything.

As to the VW, I never installed any filter on mine and it went well over 100K without any major engine work. I did cahnge oil every 2K tho so it never really got all that dirty anyway. But you know there always was some metal sticking to that magnetic drain plug which was a little worrysome.

I think those Franz filters were in the same class as the "Tornado" thingy they huckster on TV. How putting a restrictive device in the intake of your car will increase your MPG is a mystery to me. If that really worked all mfg's would have them as oem equipment.

Have a VERY happy new year.

HUD :)

chispas

When I bought my new 2002 Cavalier last year, I
told the salesman, "Since I always use synthetic
oil in the engines and automatic transmissions of
my cars, I'll change over to synthetic in both
units after about a month of break-in. Will there
be any difficulty with the GM warranty?"

He said "yes" as to the transmission. Then went
on to explain that the 4 speed automatic is a
"sealed unit". (I knew that wasn't a right answer because the service manual, which I'd
already read, mentioned servicing the transmission at 50,000 miles under severe conditions.)

Before leaving I stopped at the service area,
asked to speak to a service manager.

A mature gentleman invited me into his little
office. I sat down. "What can I do for you?"

This time I changed my question a little. I
asked if at, say, 50,000 miles will I be within
warranty requirements if I change the transmission fluid to a synthetic that meets the
same specs as Dextron III?

He said "No".

Then I asked if there was any truth to what I'd
"heard" that the transmission was a "sealed unit"?

He said "Yes", you had to pull the transmission
out of the car in order to drain the fluid.

I'd already looked from underneath and seen that
it was fitted with a normal looking transmission
fluid pan held with about 10 bolts.

So, I was being "lied to", or else that was one
stupid shop foreman.

I lost complete confidence in the dealership.

Being a retired old geezer, I'll just continue
to do my own oil and filter changes. My time
is cheap, and I don't want "fiascos".

joe3891

here's how to check the fluid level in that sealed transmission.
The check plug is located on the passenger side of the transmission just to the right and below the axle housing,its a 11 mm hex plug.
Start the engine and allow the engine to idle until the transmission fluid temperature has reached the value specified. Depress the brake pedal and move the shift lever through the gear ranges, pausing a few seconds in each range. Return the shift lever to the PARK range. Raise the vehicle on a hoist. The vehicle must be level, with the engine running and the shift lever in the PARK range. CautionThe engine must be running when the transmission fluid fill plug is removed, or excessive fluid loss will occur. Transmission fluid may be hot. Since the actual fluid level is unknown, stand clear when removing the fill plug. Have a container ready to capture any lost fluid. Do not turn the engine off with the fill plug removed, as you can be injured by hot transmission fluid being expelled out of the oil fill opening.
Remove the transmission plug.
Important
The transmission fluid may darken with normal use and does not always indicate contamination or oxidation.
At least 40°C
Transmission fluid (At least 104°F)
Does the fluid have a burnt odor or a dark brown color?Check the fluid level. The fluid level should be even with the bottom of the threaded plug hole.Is the fluid level low?
Add DEXRON® III automatic transmission fluid in increments of 0.5L until the fluid drains from the plug hole.
Install plug before stopping engine or fluid will spill out of plug hole.

swschrad

why the () don't they build the () thing with a () dipstick? stupidest thing I ever heard of. GM must stand for Gone Moronic... and it's catching, other car companies are doing it, too.

PUES is much worse than "mad cow." write your Congressman, stop the madness!

imidazol97

GM didn't start this. A friends 96 Civic doesn't have a dipstick. Another's 2000 VW Jetta had no dipstick -- and he had trans problems early on.

bretfraz

I understand some Ford products don't have a tranny dipstick too. Explorer/Mountaineer come to mind but I'm sure there are others.

Funny, it seems there are plenty of dipsticks running around Dearborn these days......

imidazol97

What cars were the first to have a trans with no dipstick for checking level or refilling, making it a lot harder for a do-it-yourselfer to change their own fluid!

chispas

A few things that I might add...

I assumed (I know, that's dangerous) the factory
installed the correct amount of fluid.

So, when I changed the fluid for the first time
at l,300 miles (got rid of break-in shavings),
I was very careful not to spill any by using a
large drain pan.

Voila ! The transmission pan plus what was
in the fluid filter came to exactly 9 quarts.
By the way, it's amazing how much more drains
out when the filter is dropped (about a pint
and a half).

As suspected, there was no drain plug on the
torque converter, so that can't be drained.

From then on I've been re-filling with 9 quarts,
and I don't use that elaborate method.

You're correct as to what I should do.

I did spill a little during the first re-fill.
After adding 5 quarts, it overflowed. So, I
had to start the engine and finish the re-filling
with the fluid circulating.

Just a guess, not having a dipstick my be a
gimmick to make people believe it really is
a "sealed" unit.

swschrad

who is the first goofball at an auto company who signed off on no way to check the condition of tranny fluid without what looks like a half-hour procedure on an already warmed-up car? the vast collection of valuable prizes for the winner include....

(1) lifetime admission to the Taliban Bar in downtown Kabul without cover charges on heavy metal weekends

(2) the Rusty Oilspout award

(3) fame among car fanciers the world over

(4) endless requests from car fanciers to push their heap to the nearest garage for the bad news that they had a slow leak, and don't have a tranny any more

send in those nominations... contest ends soon :-D

###

mumble mumble mumble pinheads mumble.....

I can assure boarders that I check maintainability before I buy, and if the new exploder/mountie is sealed, it's not going to replace my current one.

armtdm

Also has no drain plug and the procedure descrivbed above is exaclty how to check and change the fluid on that. Unfortunately, the fill plug is vertical, yep, not on the side of the pan but straight up like a drain plug, just a higher part of the pan. Thus, I had to make a hooked tubing to be able to pump fluid into the vertical fill plug. My independent mechanic even refused to drain and fill this sucker due to the fill plug.

chispas

If you wish to add a drain plug, like a 3/8"
tapered pipe plug, be careful.

If the transmission pan is made of galvenized
sheet, that galvenized coating will give problems
when adding a pice of scrap steel where you
want to drill and tap.

A professional welder will "know" what galvenized
will cause.

Even if you use a pro welder, pour some fluid
in the pan and let it sit for a few hours in
order to test for seepage around the weld.
There can be a flaw in the weld that is undetectable otherwise.

chispas

There is usually a small, flat, magnet that has
been put in the bottom of the pan.

It's just a "drop-in" because it sticks in place
because of magnetism.

Much of the debris from the wearing of parts
inside the transmission are collected by this
little magnet.

Some older cars never had one. I suspect that
carelesness would account for some that have been
removed and not put back during cleaning.

Whatever they cost, maybe a couple of dollars,
please be sure you have one !

joe3891

on my own car i park it on a level spot,i lay down in front and reach in with a wrench & remove the check plug,i start out by putting in 8 qts and it all goes in,when i take out the check plug 1 pt comes out.This is all done with fluid at 104 deg F or better to make sure the upper chamber valve is closed & trapping fluid.I say whatever works.

chispas

I say "congratulations" to anybody that can do
ANYTHING underneath a vehicle without jacking it
up.

Safety first !

swschrad

you need to have a professional who can be sued doing the work, just in case the tranny slips into gear or they bump the linkage or something. the general idea should be that you don't design hazards into a job like that, and THAT is the fault of (dare I repeat it?) pinheads at the car companies.

even if it's on an axle hoist, you can spin the tires to self-disassembly speeds quickly.

Joe Shade-Tree should not be going there, especially with double asterisks, when working alone.