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Comments
It is regrettable that I had to take matters to the degree I did in order to get attention from Toyota. Now that the veil of denial has been blown away and the issues are out in the open, I hope that this benefits other Toyota customers by Toyota becoming more responsive to those having problems. This will ultimately also benefit Toyota because they will retain customers they would otherwise have lost and will improve the product.
For those of you experiencing problems - don't rely on the dealer or some low-level customer service rep to drive the issues for you. You have to take it as far up the ladder as possible.
I can't take full credit though - Edmunds was quietly instrumental in this, and it shows what an important and powerful medium Edmund's Town Hall has become.
Bob
The most serious of my concerns were very significant transmission/throttle-control problems and very poor build quality. Not just small irritations - I had a near miss caused by the transmission latency and surge, and the body was literally creaking itself apart. On two other occasions the transmission shifted into neutral as I was driving and wouldn't re-engage any gear until after I pulled over, turned everything off and restarted. I tried many different things, but the adaptive transmission always seemed to eventually compute itself into a state of confusion.
I don't want to rehash history, but collectively, the Avalon had more problems in 10 months than any car I've had in years of ownership over the last 25 years.
Toyota's quarterly earnings came out today reporting record profits.
There was an interesting comment:
"In fiscal 2005, a favorable exchange rate added 300 billion yen ($2.7 billion) to its books, while cost reduction efforts another 130 billion yen ($1.2 billion)."
Perhaps my Avalon was the result of that cost reduction effort.
Bob
I had my heart set on the M35 and went to drive the M35 again and work a deal, but they didn't have the one I wanted on the lot, so the salesman drove me to their other lot in his own new loaded Altima 3.5SL.
That was his big mistake. I was mightily impressed with the Altima and after driving the similarly sized M35 again, and comparing it with the 3.5SL, I decided that the Altima was an eight-tenths M35, with the same great engine for about $12,000 less!
I took a look at the Maxima again, couldn't get by it's ugly looks and techno-dashboard, and ended up getting a loaded-to-the-hilt Smyrna-built Altima 3.5SL.
After having driven it for 2 weeks now, I am very pleasantly surprised by the solidness and inherent quality that seems baked into this Altima. I don't want to upset you Avalonites, but I'd take this underrated plebeian Nissan over the Avalon any day.
It's not as glitzy as the Avalon, doesn't have the same prestige factor or $50K interior, is obviously smaller but this is a finely-honed platform with a superbly matched engine and transmission, excellent build quality, loaded with features, a dynamite Bose sound system and a lot of very solid car for the money.
The interior bits are sturdy, in alignment, fit tightly and are screwed down, the exterior panel gaps are smaller than the Avalon and everything works together seamlessly. Nissan has obviously been quietly improving this platform over the years.
It is an absolute rocket, quiet, refined, almost no road-noise and smooth to drive. The DBW system is invisible, transmission response is instantaneous, the engine zings and doesn't sound like a diesel and wonder of wonders, no rattles! I haven't had this much fun since I got my first bicycle - I love driving this car.
As a hardened Toyota and Lexus guy, nobody is more surprised than me, and I am laughing all the way to the bank. As Gomer Pyle would say "Surprise, surprise, surprise!".
...and that is the rest of the story.
Cj
American assembled cars is more like it.
Parts mostly Asian.
And 99% of those whopping profits go to Japan.
Japan,Inc thanks you.
Not true. Profits go to shareholders.
Toyota is a public company--traded on the NYSE and other stock markets worldwide.
Many North Americans (and North American Institutions) own Toyota stock and receive dividends from profits. (They also own Daimler/Chrysler and other foreign automaker's stocks).
We all benefit from profits generated by automakers, directly(wages, benefits, spinoffs, etc.) and indirectly (taxes, suppliers, etc.)
If foreign ownership is so distastful to you, then you should be aware that American companies own and control a great many offshore businesses--oil companies for starters.
So maybe we should look at ourselves before criticizing other nations?
"Parts mostly Asian."
Again, not true. It's well known where parts and other auto components are sourced. Japan is one of many sources, but North America--US, Mexico, Canada are the largest sources of supply for Toyota products built in North America.
Also, it seems you were able to get media support--an article about your situation in a newspaper. How might someone else go about getting attention in this manner?
Did you contact them direcly or through a third party?
Comment?
The VQ Nissan V6 is arguably the best V6 ever made. While current renditions from Honda and the 2GR in our Avalons may beat it a little on smoothness and efficiency there is nothing out there that has the VQ track record.
My wife manages right at 26 mpg overall - 80% highway and she has no difficulty holding 80 out in the open. Just slightly off what I can do in my Av. I didn't think too much of those Bridgestone EL42 tires that came on the car and later replaced them with a set of Hydroedges (225/55/17) at the penalty of some road noise but with much better wear and wet handling. She runs it on regular with no problem. Nissans, as Nissans tend to be, are tuned more toward the 'sports sedan' side of things, so it does not compare with the quietness that I get on my Av - the SL trim (from what I've tested in the 05 Maxima) should not be nearly as 'hard'. Acceleration numbers should be very close, but my wife's SE has got a responsiveness to it not in my Avalon - brakes and an accelerator that are almost touchy and no aberrant tranny behavior. Or rattles, or any other problems. I do a lot of driveway 'repairs' and other than the normal filters and fluids, I'm only down one set of front pads and even they weren't all that bad at 40k. Belts and hoses I'll do this summer.
And resale value holds real well - my wife was rear ended about 4 months ago - significant damage (the rear seat was pushed up into the back of the front seats) - wife not even scratched fortunately. Anyway, at $8500.00 damage thought I might be able to get the insurance co. to total it so Mama could have a new one - but no! According to the insurance whizes the thing is still worth $15.5k - for a 3 year old car, at 60000 miles, and that I paid $21K for!? The repairs went well and now I'm negotiating a substantial 'diminished value' check.
You'll enjoy your 3.5SL and likely won't have to darken a dealers doorstep ever again (unless you want to). Curious though, I also shopped the M in early '05, and wasn't going to be able to get one off the lot for less than $45 (with the drivers preferred pkg.) - what are they getting for them now that they have been around awhile?
Anyway, this is really kind of off topic - but you have been such a resource on this forum thought that I share a little info. on your new car. It is a winner...
Thanks.
I'm also glad to hear about your positive Altima experiences - thanks for the info. The 3.5SL certainly is softer and quieter than the 3.5SE - the way I like it. When I looked at the Altima, I had initially felt that it was a bit on the "young" side for me, but my teenage son quickly put that into perspective: "Dad, think of it as a Nissan Alzheimer and you'll be all set!"
In my case, guess I should be trying to find 'Dr. Jack'
I have a 2006 Avalon XLS. I have been in a couple of times for rattles in 2 different areas.
#1 Rattle in front window driver side area. Dealership put in new cowl and that helped somewhat but rattle still there. Then put in new tray that should have been installed when cowl installed and now it has gone from very sporadic rattle to 10 times or more an average ride. Sounds like a wood floor creaking. What would you do. Go in the tray direction and put up will creak every few days. Or what? HELP!
#2 rattle is rear parcel shelf area. SIGH! This one is killing me because any bumpy road and I get squeak city. I have had my car in twice for this one also. When Toyota gave up they sent it to a body shop who said it was a bad pinch weld. Body shop said they would have to take out back window to get at it!! Double acck nooooo......... I really do not want to go that route. Especially with this body shop. They were gross. Took it to another body shop who said they don't think it is necessary to take out the window but they will have to look at the situation. What do you think? 2nd body shop said you do not want to take out that back window. It will never be the same. I really don't want to do that.
So what would you do? Any suggestions? I have rented 3 different cars (toyotas expense) and each time I have to do this I can't wait to get back my car. No car I have ever driven compares to it. But this rattle thing is KILLING me.
MelBC
Is your rear rattle a tapping sound from the base of the rear windshield on the left hand side?
If so, I have a fix for you.
No rattles, wind noise or other problems so far.
MelBC
MelBC
This took me a long time to isolate, but my metallurgy training from my mechanical engineering days came in handy diagnosing and fixing this.
1. Open trunk.
2. From outside vehicle, stand at left of vehicle beside the C pillar.
3. Press and release along the left of rear window frame starting at the bottom left, working your way up the left of the frame.
4. As you release, you will hear the tap noise. This is to confirm that you have traced the source of the tapping.
5. Place your right thumb firmly on the top left hand corner of the trunk-lid opening, above the hinge and in the recessed area between the rubber lip of the opening and the flanged outer area. This area is covered by the trunk lid when it is closed.
6. Repeat Step 3 and 4 with your left hand while keeping pressure in the area described in step5.
7. If the tapping does not occur or changes, then you have found the source of the problem.
8. The next step is to slightly change the torsional stress on the panel so that the direction of the forces causing the tapping are changed.
9. Place the end of a 2x4 cut approx 1 foot long, vertically into the recessed area described in step 5. Note that this area is covered when the trunk lid is closed and is NOT an exposed panel.
10. Using a hammer, and holding the 2x4 firmly in the area described, sharply impact the opposite end of the 2x4.
11. Repeat Step 3 and 4.
12. If the tapping has not gone away or does not require greater pressure to induce, repeat step 9 but move the 2x4 into a slightly different position within the described area. Repeat again if necessary.
If done properly, the 2x4 will not damage the inner-trunk area as described, but by changing the directional forces being applied to the window frame area, the tap is eliminated.
13. If the tapping returns due to expansion and contraction caused by temperature change, then do the following:
14. On the inside of the left hand side of the trunk, remove the plastic clip and pull away the vertical trunk lining. This exposes a vertical inner panel running from the top of the inside of the trunk to the trunk floor. It is NOT the outside panel!!!!
15. Using the 2x4 and hammer, place the 2x4 horizontally onto the inner metal panel, and impact the opposite side sharply with the hammer. This will also change the torsional forces acting on the top of the trunk frame below the window and should finally get rid of the tapping.
You should never be knocking on any exposed body panels. If you are, then you have misunderstood these instructions!
Please let me know if this resolves your tapping.
I discovered that the rear parcel shelf was a source of multiple rattles, another noise being caused by the wire that lead to the the rear-mounted stop-lamp. There is also a temperature sensor below the shelf. The wires to these devices are "secured" to the top of the inside of the parcel shelf with Scotch tape. In the hot sun, the tape adhesive melts, and the wires come loose and tap against the bare plastic inside of the top of the parcel shelf. This is where I really get mad at Toyota. Scotch tape should not be used to secure cables!!! Chrysler used to do this years ago. There is very little insulation inside the shelf area. Just further evidence of cost-cutting for a few nickels. This is "Kaisen"? Anyway...
These wires are not easy to get to or to secure. I will post instructions to fix this if you need them.
Anybody got the "ball-bearing rolling under the driver's seat" noise yet?
Did you ever get to the point where you just hated the process of going to Toyota..explaining your problem....make the appt....lose your car for a day or three....pick up your car...drive on pins and needles to see if the rattle or other problem comes back....IT COMES BACK :mad: :mad:.....and then you have to start the whole process all over again. I am really getting mentally exhausted over the whole thing. I find I have no time for this and I am starting to feel like they think I am some kind of pest. But the rattles are obviously there and they are endeavoring to fix them. I am just worried they will never fix it or what will my car look like by the time they are done?!
I hope this is over soon! I want to be able to relax and enjoy my car...worry free!
Sorry so long.
MelBC
Yes, I got to the point where I hated the process of going to Toyota so much, I got rid of the car!
MelBC
I decided that the Avalon, as nice as it was, what with the rattles and transmission glitches, just wasn't worth the constant aggravation.
I do hope you can get these ones resolved. If Toyota won't help you with the rear rattle, I am sure your father-in-law will.
I'm now at a point where I am not confident Toyota truly has a long term fix to address the rattles and the transmission hesitation problem. My hope is that I'm wrong.
I realize that there are many forum members who have not experienced either rattles or the transmission hesitation problem and my guess ( hope ) is that your experience is the norm and reflects the type of quality car that we all expected from Toyota.
Regards:
Dan
I like this car, but the rattles are absurd!
Plus I have to tell you guys. We don't pay high 20s or low 30's for this car in Canada. Would you believe we paid over 40 thousand for this loaded XLS. And in the US you have even more options than we do. Don't get me wrong. I still love this car and have adapted by playing my stereo more than usual. But these rattles will have to be dealt with. I have confidence that they will be. From what I have read in Lemon Aid books etc Toyota seems to be good at service. Chrysler on the other hand really let us down which was one of the reasons we changed makers of cars after 27 years! What I can't stand is that it should be so simple!!!!
MelBC
Now we are getting some good Avalons, some bad ones and the mundane parts being affected are the very things that Toyota used to criticize the domestics for - rattles, bad build quality, inconsistent panel gaps. If the new Camry being Toyota's international volume seller and based on the Avalon, has the same problems as the new Avalon, then Toyota are heading for a huge nosedive. I find this interesting, not just as an ex-Avalon owner, but also because I have studied the success of Japanese companies and have seen how long it has taken for the rest of the world to adopt many of their strategies.
Have we come full circle?
Bob
If you read this forum, one would think that the Avalon is a crappy peace of junk. I hope that I am not the only owner of a 05 Limited that is entirelysatisfied.
Let's hear from the SATISFIED owners!!!
Again, the satisfied owners should make their views visable in this forum.
Bob
My 2004 ES 330 is my first Toyota product and has been bullet proof, so I expected the Avalon to be just as good. I must say that I'm surprised to read the many discouraging reports about that company. The Lexus was made in Japan, while Avalons are made in Kentucky I believe. I wonder if the problems stem from the Avalon's design or the employees who build it.
Sound familiar?
It wasn't familiar to me because this has NEVER happened in my 06 Avalon but this is EXACTLY what happened in the 06 Lincoln Town Car I rented this weekend. (I won't go into the zillion other things about the Lincoln that make it a sad joke when compared to the Avalon I'm driving.)
Thankfully, I'm back home and happily driving my Avalon again.
Just thought everyone might benefit from some PERSPECTIVE on the whole issue of transmission hesitation.
Tom