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Mileage Fraud!! Odometer was rolled back!!! What to do?

zodaczodac Posts: 1
HELP!?! I purchased a 99 Tahoe which was fully loaded of of a DEALERS!! lot and in claiming warrenty work found out from a certified GM clock/ speedometer repair center that the mileage was rolled back!! What can i do? Dealer is fighting the issue and blaming previous owner!
Help me please!
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Comments

  • zueslewiszueslewis Posts: 2,353
    ASAP. Get very official with the dealer and do not agree to any recourse or waive any of your rights, as in a "waiver of claim" against the dealer.
  • Talk more about your proof and details. If I read your post correctly: You were having work done on the IP Cluster and the shop discovered indications of previous work? And they provided you with a written statement that the mileage had been turned back? How much did they say it was turned back? The dealer then says that their signned odometer statements from the previous owner and to you match the shown mileages? So you think the former owner and the dealer have conspired together to misrepresent the mileage? Please more details for all of us.
  • For those of us looking to buy used veh's.
    How prevalent is this problem, rolling back Odo's. Is there a way to check this out prior to buying?
    p.s. Good luck Zodac.
  • janzjanz Posts: 129
    from what I've read. Digital odometers were supposed to make this more difficult, but can be done in 20 mins. with a laptop and software you can buy on the internet.

    If they are available, regular service records from the date of purchase would help. But you're only likely to get these from a private sale.

    Carfax reports (and the like) can be helpful too, but I also read an article that those doing rollbacks go to the same reports and roll back to the last reported mileage.

    IMHO, used cars = "Buyer Beware". Perhaps one positive point for buying new.
  • hudraheadhudrahead Posts: 169
    "Clocking" or rolling back odos as it's known in the trade is VERY common here in Florida. it has been estimated that at least 20% going thru the auctions have been tampered. Very tough to prove especially on didgital odos as no mechanical work is required and so little evidence of tampering. A paper trail on the vehicle, service records etc. is about the only way you could prove the fact, especally in a law suit. This is a Federal offense. My son is a federal officer with the U S Dept.of Justice at a federal lock-up / correctional facility here in Florida and they have several clockers doing hard time. NO parole in the fed system. How's 10 years for doing the nasty deed, eh ?

    HUD :):)
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    ...... Where dooooo you get this info ... ?

             Your son can work for Jeb Bush himself, and still NOT see 1%, let alone 20% .l.o.l.. I'm at every major auction in Florida and been doing it going on 20 years and whether the dealer is in Tallahassee, Ft Myers or Miami they haven't seen 20, let alone all these "clockers" as you call it, your information is only about 10yrs old ....

            Now I have seen a few pass through the auctions that have jumped by Kansas City via Baltimore, traveled back to Chicago, did a little side shuffle to Texas, then wandered it's way back down south, but as a rule, good dealers don't waste their time with vehicles that have done the "tour" ..

            Florida has one of the toughest regulations in the country, I won't mention any names, but a HUGE dealer up the Ocala way lost $3mill and spent 6 months being Bubba's babe for trying to click back some rental vehicles .. it aint worth it, all you have to do is follow the DMV's ...

                       Terry.
  • hudraheadhudrahead Posts: 169
    Terry, Terry, relax !! The "source" was a business contact that was pretty high up @ Manheim (corporate level) so I tended to belive him. Why would he say that if not some truth to it ? I happen to live in Ocala and I would LOVE to know what "huge" dealer that was that got busted for odo rollback. I really don't know of any "huge" dealers right here in town. Could it have been over @ Daytona ? If it would have actually been Ocala I'm sure I would have heard about that. The only thing huge in Ocala is the silence on Silver Springs Blvd. after the sun goes down. LOL

    By the way, the federal lock-up @ Coleman Fl. IS huge. The largest federal correctional facility in the US. Don't know how many Bubbas they have for each inmate.I'll have to ask my son what the Bubba to inmate ratio is. LOL !

    regards HUD :):)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
    Reactivated by request... I smell a story coming!!

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Fraud is really REALLY hard to prove. What most consumers think of as "fraud" usually boils down to "misrepresentation", which can still be illegal but doesn't carry anywhere near the weight or penalties of fraud.

    Basically, from what I understand of the law (which might be incomplete), with fraud you have to prove INTENT on the part of the seller.....and without hard evidence, that's pretty tough.....now "misrepresentation" can be pinned on somebody (EVEN YOU!) even if you didn't have intent....so what I mean is just because you didn't KNOW the car you were selling had been rolled back, you are still responsible to some extent for how the deal came down.

    So this "caveat emptor" is also widely misunderstood....people think that once they sell a used car in a private party deal, they are free and clear of any responsibility. Oh, yeah? That's just not so.

    My advice is to not only be careful of what you buy, but of what you sell.

    You may get away with "puffery" in your ad, like "best car I ever owned", but if you say it's got 40,000 miles and it has 80,000, whether you knew that or not, you're in for trouble.

    CLOCKING -- I'm with Terry here, I don't think much of this goes on anymore. It DOES happen but a dealer would have to be totally nuts unless he is doing business out of a tent with quick-release pegs.

    A GREATER RISK is "laundered" salvage titles IMO.

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  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    CLOCKING -- I'm with Terry here, I don't think much of this goes on anymore. It DOES happen but a dealer would have to be totally nuts unless he is doing business out of a tent with quick-release pegs

    Not long ago I read an article in a leasing/fleet trade magazine that 8%-10% of all lease vehicles in the greater NY metro area have been clocke. In most areas the numbers are much less....They had some consulting firm do all kinds of research in this area. They also found that it wasnt dealers doing the clocking it was the consumers. They found that folks will do anything to avoid those pesky over mileage charges.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,128
    Wow.... You have to figure they are paying someone to do that for them... I wouldn't have the slightest clue on where to start, if attempting to do that myself.. (not that I would).

    10%.. unreal...

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  • lhesslhess Posts: 379
    my boyfriend's speedometer in his 2004 Duramax truck broke on Christmas Day. We take it in first opportunity (day or so after Christmas) and they had to order a new speedometer for it.

    At the time it had roughly 21K miles on it (I'm not sure exactly, but for the sake of my story...). Anyway, had a trip to NC to see family scheduled, routine daily driving.... the part is on national backorder so it took well over a month to get it in to the dealership. We took the truck in as soon as the part came in (irritating as crap not knowing your speed for more than a month) and had it put on. It came set, calibrated, whatever you want to call it, from the factory and had the 21K miles on it (the amount at the time we took it to the dealer) even though we had put about 5K miles on it during that time period. Not really a big deal.

    But, for those that got their part ordered, do a lot of daily driving, didn't rush in to get it fixed when the part arrived...it could really mean some difference in what is showing and what is actually on the engine. Additionally, the dealer said it was a widespread issue with GM vehicles (hence the national back order on the part) so there are a bunch of GM vehicles out there with inaccurate mileage readings.

    I have looked at our service history and I don't think we have anything that would raise a red flag on a trade or a sale of the truck (good thing, we're about to dump it on someone, somewhere), but if you got an oil change in there (odometer still worked), you would have some suspicious looking service records.
  • 1racefan1racefan Posts: 932
    Most of the time when you trade or sell a car, you have to sign a statement saying that to the best of your knowledge the displayed mileage is accurate. I would think that legally (not to mention ethically), you should at that point say something - explain the whole story. That's just me though. I always believe in being upfront about things like that and dealing with them head on instead of looking over my shoulder wondering if they are going to sneak up on me and bite me in my butt.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,937
    That truck is a TMU vehicle. True Mileage Unknown.

    Not a good thing but maybe you can explain it so a buyer is comfortable with this.
  • 1racefan1racefan Posts: 932
    I think a lot of times people are pretty understanding of these types of situations if you put your story down on paper, have it notarized, and then supply copies of the repair bills from where the odometer work was done.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,937
    It still casts a "cloud" on the car. A leary buyer will shy away. An excuse NOT to buy the car in question. But you are correct, others won't care IF they have a clear explanation of what happened.
  • 1racefan1racefan Posts: 932
    But....getting back to the point - I think any way you slice it, you should disclose that this is the case when you trade / sell it. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea what the law says about this.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,937
    I've never heard of a shop installing a speedometer with pre-set miles on it. They are usually at zero and a sticker is applied to the inside driver's door stating the reading of the old odometer. the two numbers get added together to determine actual miles.

    But, who knows how many miles were driven between the time it broke and was replaced?
  • 1racefan1racefan Posts: 932
    If that were to happen to my car, I would leave it sitting at the dealership and would rent a car for the month that I was waiting for the replacement odometer. I would also write the manufacturer a letter asking to be reimbursed for the rental expense. You either have to eat the rental expense, or continue to drive the vehicle and have the "cloud" hang over it.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,128
    .. I'd just pass that car up.. No matter what the story...

    There are too many cars out there to take the chance...

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,673
    CLOCKING -- I'm with Terry here, I don't think much of this goes on anymore. It DOES happen but a dealer would have to be totally nuts unless he is doing business out of a tent with quick-release pegs

    maybe it doesn't happen much on the dealership side (although I'm SURE there are independents out there still doing this).... but I do know it happens quite often on the consumer side. I hear folks talking about this quite often (and usually asking me where they can go or how to do it because they know I know quite a bit about cars). Even as recently as a couple of weeks ago, a friend of my wife was telling me how he had the miles rolled back on his '00 Volvo before trading it in. I let him have a piece of my mind (the little i could afford), but that doesn't change the fact that the car is already out there and someone is going to get screwed on it.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,128
    ...that everything was sealed, and that it was easy to detect tampering?

    You would think that this would be the first thing checked on a lease return...

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  • 1racefan1racefan Posts: 932
    Well, I guess it is like everything else. The criminals seem to be one step ahead of technology on a lot of things.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Well what I meant was that the dealer has a lot more to lose than the consumer---I wouldn't presume that dealers are more or less honest than private parties----I'm sure dishonesty cuts across all occupations, income levels and whatever.

    But any consumer clocking a lease car is definitely guilty of fraud and I trust will be punished accordingly. Shouldn't be too hard to catch them if somebody really tried. Dealers have service records and you have to service lease cars, so any clocking scheme would have to be pretty elaborate...and the more lies you tell, the easier it is to catch you.

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  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    .. **I think a lot of times people are pretty understanding of these types of situations**


    ...... find me three .......

    Terry.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    .. **Additionally, the dealer said it was a widespread issue with GM vehicles (hence the national back order on the part) so there are a bunch of GM vehicles out there with inaccurate mileage readings** ...

    Hmm, I think that makes for a nice story, because nobody is aware of any Odo problems on Duramax's or any other GM products right now .....

    Perhaps this was more of a: "it's Christmas and somebody got too close to the eggnog and forgot to order a part thing" ..l.o.l...





    Terry.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,673
    You do have to service them, but not at a dealer. I've never had or heard of the records being asked for upon lease return, but, if necessary, receipts from a private garage are perfectly acceptable and (since, in the case i stated above, the same garage was servicing the car as adjusted the odo) the receipts don't necessarily have to show the mileage.

    Its a scary thought, to be sure.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • lhesslhess Posts: 379
    It will probably get traded locally and the odometer thing won't be an issue - we have no problem with relaying the story. My point is, how many GM vehicles are out there that will have more than the 5K miles we put on ours and won't be honest about it at sale or trade?

    About the lease thing that was mentioned, we had no idea this speedometer would arrive with the 21K miles already set. Maybe the dealer did it to make us happy - we were very upset when we realized we had to take a 6 hour interstate trip (one way) over New Year's without a speedometer and we were advised to "just run with the traffic!" But they did us no favor.

    Terry, we did check with another GM dealer in the area (no, we have no faith in our own) and the part was completely unavailable through the entire month of January this year. We intended to even check with a dealer once we got to NC, but we were there over New Year's and parts depts were closed.

    When we scheduled to get the part put on, the service guy made the comment that they had others to replace?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Just be sure to cover your butt and divulge everything you know to the buyer. Should you not do this and say the new buyer takes it into the dealer who replaced the speedo, and the buyer is told this, he's going to hit the roof and come back at you. So get it all out, up front, would be my advice. Sounds like this is your intent.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,937
    And, trust us, it WILL be an issue!
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