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Mileage Fraud!! Odometer was rolled back!!! What to do?

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Comments

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,691
    That car still has to be sold as a TMU car and that scares a lot of people.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,681
    it scared me when i got it appraised as a trade in!
    there was never anything physically put on the car to indicate it as a TMU.
    looking at the carfax, i didn't see anything that would point to that either.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,691
    They should have put a sticker in teh inner door jamb.

    The sticker states the miles on the old odometer and the miles on the new.

    Still, a TMU car and still tainted merchandise.

    You did get lucky!
  • I am in the process of buying a 2008 Kia Optima. The odometer states that it has 202 miles on it, However the sales manager slipped up and said it was a demo, and thought it had a lot more, as a matter of fact he said he would give us a real good deal. After the paperwork the good deal works out to 21000 +, he said the rebate was taken by americredit and put over to me in a lower interest rate (17%) instead. I started checking things, tires are worn, yet rotors gleam and have crosshatching visible. The calipers look brand new, yet the brake pedal is worn, and best of all the engine air filter is brand new, yet the cabin air filter is filthy, and the ac smelled real bad (hence checking the filter) The new car smell is long gone, and they did a poor job detailing it. The other kicker is we had to sign an as is disclaimer, yet they are selling it to us as new. How do I check to find the actual mileage, and can i sue the pants off them if it has been tampered with?

    Any input would be appreciated

    Thanks
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    Seems crazy for a dealer to do this. You don't have to sue them, they can be put in JAIL. This is a Federal crime. Jail time to make a couple thou extra on a Kia. Seems insane, doesn't it?

    Anyway, best thing to do if you are suspicious is to just walk away. There is no Kia shortage last time I looked.

    You can buy a 2009 Optima for this money anyway.

    Just take a walk on this whole deal.

    MODERATOR

  • fezofezo Posts: 9,346
    17% is a lower rate? Where the heck did it start?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    another reason to walk. :sick:

    MODERATOR

  • Hello.

    I am in a very simliar situation. A dealer is offering me a 2008 "NEW" vehicle that has 220 miles on the odometer. The CarFax report is showing that a few months ago it had 15,000 miles on it (from service done at that very dealership!).

    The salesman asserts that this IS and WILL BE SOLD TO ME as a "NEW" vehicle, and that the CarFax data is wrong. He said he will attempt to rectify this with them, but that could take months.

    How can I confirm, through visual inspection, whether the car has 15,000 miles on it. Since this is a big discrepancy in the mileage, I'm sure there are some things I can look for that will give me the answer. Tires, fluids, filters can all be changed, so that's not going to cut it.

    Thank you in advance !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,832
    Seems highly unlikely that a dealership would risk possible jail time (this is a Federal offense) to make a little money, and to try to do it so boldly. CARFAX is hardly infallible. I've caught any number of mistakes on it.

    You could always try to run the VIN # through DMV. If they never registered it, that was a helluva demo car then.

    So the car has its window sticker, MSO, owner's books all wrapped up neatly, all that stuff?

    MODERATOR

  • bolivarbolivar Posts: 2,316
    Exactly what does the Carfax show? If it shows the car being sold from that dealer to a private individual with 15,000 miles, this is very strange. But if it shows the car going into the dealers inventory with 15,000 miles, then it is probably an error. It probably was 15 miles and someones finger twitched on the 0 three times.
  • 1. The car was NEVER REGISTERED, only titled to two different dealerships. The car was supposedly purchased by one dealership from another.

    2.Window sticker appears fully intact. I didn't examine it very very closely, but the salesman told me over the phone that it is completely intact, never removed. I can check that when i go there this week.

    3. I didn't ask about the MSO. I'm not sure what that would tell me since I believe the originating dealer was Dealer 1 who sold it to Dealer 2.
  • Here's an overview of the CarFax:
    10/7/2007 11 miles Dealer_1 Vehicle offered for sale
    10/13/2007 ------ Dealer_1 Pre-Delivery inspection completed.
    10/13/2008 ----------- Dealer_1 Vehicle serviced.
    2/15/2009 ------------- "Dealer Inventory" Vehicle offered for sale.
    3/1/2009 15,436 miles Dealer_2 Vehicle serviced.
    5/1/2009 15,447 miles Dealer_2 Vehicle serviced.

    Some other facts:

    1.The dealership has an "A+" rating with the Better Business Bureau.

    2.When I first inquired about this vehicle on the phone, I spoke to 3 different people and got different responses from them as to whether this was a "new" vehicle or a "used" one. Some of their own internal records seem to have the car listed as a "used" car. For instance, the first salesman I spoke to on the phone said to me that "although the car is brand new, the title changed from one dealer to us and so it would have to be sold to you on paper as a "used" car even though it's brand new." He eventually backed down on that saying that "no, it is a NEW car and will be sold to you as "NEW". The good salesman I am now dealing with even tells me that the key has a "USED" inventory tag on it !

    3.The first salesman gave me a copy of the "vehicle inquiry report". It shows:
    Category = "H"
    Ship Date = 8/30/2007
    Retail Date = 10/20/008
    Date of First Use = 10/20/2008
    "NON-FLEET"
    "Retailed for more than a year"

    So what I also don't know is how does that "vehicle inquiry report" data get updated and what does that stuff actually mean? What does all that mean in relation to the CarFax data?
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Carfax also reports if it is a 1 or 2 owner info.Can u provide that info?It also gives info if it was sold as fleet or corporate lease.
    Do u have that info?
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    A follow up-if it says retailed,then most probably it is a used car.
    And the salesmen might be confused and the sales manager manager may be totally unaware of these transactions.
    Sometimes salespeople do not know everything about the car`s history and sometimes can give u inaccurate info ,Unintentionally of course..Mistakes can happen or probably they are just too lazy to find out the whole info on that car.
    My advice would be- call and speak to the New Car Manager/Sales manager and he an figure things out for u.
  • I have requested 12 different CarFax reports from vehicles I have looked at, so I am a little familiar with what entries they can contain.

    This one, like most I have requested, doesn't say anything about 1-owner or 2-owner. I have one from 1-owner vehicle and that one does indeed clearly state that fact.

    There is no mention of "fleet" or "corporate lease". The "Vehicle Inquiry Reports" that I have all say "NON-FLEET" for all the new cars I've looked at.

    The "retailed" statement is on the "Vehicle Inquiry Report" and reads "Retailed for more than a year". I don't know exactly what that means. Perhaps it just means that it was put up for sale for more than a year.

    As I said, the saleman (who seems to be on the ball) explains that this information is all erroneous, and that he CAN clear it up with time.

    I wanted to know how often mistakes like this happen, why is there misinformation on the "Vehicle Inquiry Report" as well, how easy it might be for him to correct the CarFax record, and ....whether or not I should go ahead a PURCHASE the vehicle with the erroneous information in CarFax.

    If I buy the car with the erroneous CarFax info on record, what happens when I go to sell the car next year, or 2 or 6 years from now? What would you think as a prospective buyer? I know if it were me I would lose interest immediately because I would suspect that there was some major incident with the vehicle. In other words, the first time I go for registration/title/inspection/repairs at dealer, there will be an entry in CarFax that now says "225 miles .... Vehicle Serviced". What would you think if you saw that entry just folllowing an entry that stated there was over 15,000 miles on the car?

    I'm concerned about 2 things:

    1) That the 220 miles IS INDEED the true mileage, and the info I'm seeing is erroneous.
    2) Clearing up the erroneous record(s).

    If those two issues are satisfied, I can then negotiate to buy the car and sleep at night (or day).

    Thank you.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    "I know that if were me I would lose interest immediately...." Well, it is YOU, why are you still interested?

    It doesn't matter what the true state of affairs is here - the value of the vehicle is compromised by the existing documentary record. Carfax makes mistakes all the time. Sometimes they can be rectified and sometimes they can't.

    If you're really that interested, just tell the dealer to call you when the records have been cleared up. Until then, steer clear.
  • bolivarbolivar Posts: 2,316
    And what bothers me, you said there are TWO entries about dealer service, with a few miles different, showing the 15,xxx mile range.

    One could be a mistake. But two?

    In general, unless the price of this car is what a 15,000 mile used car could be bought for, and you really, really want this car, I would run away.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    What will happen is, you buy the car and register and inspect it. The DMV will record "220" miles. Now the next carfax will say there is an odometer discrepancy, indicating possible rollback. So you need to steer clear of this.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • lokkilokki Posts: 1,200
    So, you go to trade or sell in 4 years, and Surprise! The car fax isn't straightened out. You're trying to explain that YOU didn't tamper with the odometer and tell the story - "and you can even phone home and ask my wife!". And she's the only character witness you're going to have because everyone at the dealership will have moved somewhere else by then.

    There are just too many other cars out there right now.
  • I've examined the car top-to-bottom, inside and out. I have found no evidence that this car has anywhere near 15,000 miles. The salesman had told me that they do not use CarFax anymore, but they use AutoCheck. I asked him for the report and he gave it to me. The AutoCheck report did NOT have the (erroneous) entries on it.

    I ended up purchasing the car from them, and I also asked for a separate signed letter attesting to the fact that it is a NEW vehicle and that the manufacturer's 3/36 warranty began on my date of purchase, and that the CarFax erroneous entries will be cleared up.
  • lokkilokki Posts: 1,200
    That works... I'd also send a certified letter to CarFax including a copy of the AutoCheck report asking them to correct the record. Not that they will, but keep a copy of the letter, and you should be bullet-proof at resale time.
  • lokki,

    I'm 2 steps ahead of you :)

    I already emails CarFax and explained the situation to them yesterday. Today, I received an email from them saying that they've contacted the dealer and confirmed that the two mileage entries were erroneous. They removed the entries. I reran the report and the entries are gone !

    Thank you everyone for your input. These forums on Edmunds are GRRREAAATTT ! :)
  • mitzijmitzij Posts: 612
    If you have the VIN, you can call another dealer with it and have them pull any warranty history it might have. They'd be able to tell you if the warranty has started counting down yet or not. Ask for the Service Department, tell the you're checking the warranty start date and mileage. See how much info they can give you. Some dealers might tell you everything they know, others might just give you the date and mileage and not tell you any warranty work that was done. This is their prerogative-they owe you nothing. Be nice and see how much info you get.
  • mitzij,

    I have already contacted Toyota (headquarters) and am awaiting their response. I want to confirm with them that my warranty started the day I purchased it.

    I forgot to mention...when I spoke to the salesman (a really great guy) he said the reason the "Vehicle Inquiry Report" showed that it was already put into service was because someone bought the car, but never "bought" the car. When the originating dealer sold the car they filed an RDR (Retail Delivery Report) to Toyota (headquarters). But when the buyer failed to follow through with the transaction, the originating dealer DID NOT reverse the RDR, since they would've incurred some financial penalty in doing so. The originating dealer then transferred (sold) the vehicle to their "sister" dealership (owned by the same moneybaggers) and that's where I purchased it.

    So, NO Toyota dealer was ever able to inquire on this vehicle (as a "new" vehicle) being available, since it had alread been RDRed and not reversed.

    My salesman is now telling me that eventually when Toyota reverses this RDR, the originating dealer is going to still have to pay some penalty for the reversal.

    That's all I know. I hope I've explained this accurately.

    But the bottom line is, right now the only thing I have hanging is that I have to confirm with Toyota (headquarters) that the vehicle that I own has a 3/36k warranty starting the day I purchased it. I have everything in writing that confirms that, but I really don't want to wait 2 years and/or 20k miles to find out that this mixup is going to cause me grief. I'd rather deal with it now !

    Meanwhile, I'm driving around in a gorgeous vehicle and all I want to do is DRIVE ! :shades:

    There's actually something to be learned from this....It makes sense to me to run a CarFax (and/or AutoCheck) EVEN IF the vehicle you're going to purchase is "new".
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Posts: 3,327
    The new odometer showed only 5 miles, but when I asked for an explanation- was advised they installed a sticker on the door post saying to add 23567! No charge!

    Look for the stickers. :mad:
  • I purchased a 1996 Toyota Camry from a private party. I found out quite by accident that the mileage had been rolled back by 145,000 miles. I called the guy and threatened him and got my money back. Now, I've recieved a title in the mail with his name on it and my address. The DMV and the Dealer Compliance person told me to just sign it and give it to him. No way I'm going to do that as the next person that gets ripped off will have my address from the title and torch my house.

    Who do I turn him into so that this car can't be sold again? Or that he is fined, strung up or both?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    It depends upon the state you live in, but typically you would contact the DMV or the Secretary of State's office and inform them of the fraud.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • Does a 1996 Camry even have a six digit odometer? Ford still used five digit Odos back then I can't remember if Toyota did too.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    I'd imagine it does. My '85 Nissan does, as does my '93 mazda.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • Yeah it probably did too. I worked on plenty of Toyotas from that time and earlier and I think all of them had 6 digit odos. I couldn't remember for sure.

    I don't Ford expected their cars to last that long yet. :P
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