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Toyota Prius

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  • jrct9454jrct9454 Posts: 2,363
    ...it's pretty obvious that one of our regular posters here [we all know his identity] believes it his personal mission to make sure that no positive claim or review of the new Prius goes unchallenged. His main problem seems to be the "irrational" enthusiasm of the marketplace for this car. Why it is more "rational" to be excited by 6000 lbs of truck, or even smaller cars with modestly better performance, or one of the gazillion other alternatives, is an open question. As pointed out repeatedly above, it is OK for the Prius not to be your personal cup of tea. It's just boring, though, to have this same set of criticisms repeated over and over. We get it, guy - you think this car doesn't make sense. Most of the rest of us do. Vive la difference...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    CR tested a Prius against a Malibu, Galant, Verona, and Stratus. All midsized sedans. The Verona had a V6, the others 4 cylinders. I am on the road and don't have that CR issue with me, but as I recall the Prius beat one of the cars 0-60 and was within a couple of tenths on the others--hence the "competitive" statement from CR. Also, the Prius came out on top in that comparo and was highlighted by CR as being the preferred option in the entire class (which includes Accord, Camry, Passat, Mazda6, and Altima) if someone is interested in good fuel economy. (The fuel economy of the Prius was almost double the average fuel economy of the other cars in the test group.)

    As far as the slowest (and I assume here you mean least quick) Toyota, MT tested the Prius, Scion xA and xB at the same time and same conditions and found the Prius quicker than both of them 0-60. Other numbers posted on Edmunds.com discussions about hybrids vs. ICE cars have noted numbers for automatic Camrys and Corollas at 9.8 seconds, which is what MT has measured for the Prius. Refer also to CR's comparo on the Prius and four other cars in its size/price class. The long-term testers at Edmunds.com haven't mentioned any problems about performance--but did mention chirping the tires on takeoff. Bottom line is, the Prius' performance is in the same ballpark as comparable ICE cars. If you want to pick at a couple tenths of a second, go ahead, but the importance of that in the real world is nil.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Well it is a coincidence that Edmunds obtained 42.8 mpg on their long term test Prius and the only person I know that owns a 2004 Prius and keeps records of mpg has avg. of 42 mpg.
    42 mpg is very good and about what I expected.
    About the same mpg you would expect on an automatic VW TDI and much lower emissions.
    Will be interesting to see the mpg on the new Highlander Hybrid.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    Are you attempting to imply an average?

    My 53.7 MPG last month wasn't as high my friend Bill, who got 56 MPG, or my friend Kou who got about 52 MPG (all calculated values, which are lower than displayed). That's 3 owners in the same area getting much, much higher with a 2004 than the test value. And my friends here, Mary & Charlie with classics, are both getting just under 50 MPG.

    That quick sampling clearly shows that actual owners achieve can much higher values the testing revealed. So you can't claim it it won't happen for some.

    JOHN
  • fastdriverfastdriver Posts: 2,273
    Since when do those window MPG stickers mean so much? This is the first discussion I've seen where people are making a big thing about it. It's rare that anyone gets those numbers no matter WHAT kind of car they're driving!

    Like any car, mileage will vary depending on how and where you drive and the weather conditions. I don't think most people are buying the Prius for its 0-60 times or how it handles on twisting mountain roads at 60 MPH!!!! Geez!

    Enjoy the car for what it is. At least Toyota is TRYING to help us fight these ridiculous gas prices unlike Detroit! The Prius would most likely be my next choice with these obscene gas prices if I didn't have to wait 8 months to get a model with the equipment that Toyota thinks I should have.

    Enjoy your car!

    fastdriver
  • klemmercklemmerc Posts: 3
    After waiting more than 7 months for my Prius, all the dealer can offer me are cars with Ivory/Brown interiors. Since I live in New England with its winter snow, slush, salt & sand interior grunge resistance is a factor to consider. Our 2000 Camry with gray interior shows dirt easily. What is the collective experience with Ivory vs. Gray in the Prius?
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    "It's rare that anyone gets those numbers no matter WHAT kind of car they're driving!" Maybe with the Prius, but not with many other cars. I am an average to agressive driver and with my 2003 Accord 4-cylinder (EPA 34/26), I have never had a single tank below 26 in over 26,000 miles. I average in mixed driving 30 mpg and usually get 33-36 on the Highway averaging about 75 mph. I have never had a car that could not better the lower EPA number. Similarly, if I had a Prius and hoped to get similar numbers according to the EPA, I should never see a tank below 51 and average 58-65 around town. Is that what is happening? No.

    Once again the Prius gets great mileage just ignore the EPA estimates unlike most of the other cars on the road.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    People should read what is printed on the window-sticker, and not just assume the big numbers are a promise... because it isn't! This is that text from a 2004 Prius:

    Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Not everyone is so fortunate. From Edmunds.com's long-term test wrapup report on the '03 Accord EX 4-cylinder automatic (24/34 EPA rating):

    Best Fuel Economy: 30.0 mpg
    Worst Fuel Economy: 14.5 mpg
    Average Fuel Economy: 24.1 mpg

    I don't recall seeing any Edmunds.com long-term tester or a CR tester for that matter that met its EPA numbers. The best I've seen recently (compared to the EPA numbers) was the 26 mpg overall that the Malibu V6 got in CR's tests, which is very good for a V6 sedan and actually topped the test mpg for the Malibu 4 cylinder. Most midsized cars get in the low 20s for overall mpg in CR's tests. As noted earlier, the Prius got double that number.
  • fastdriverfastdriver Posts: 2,273
    I'm sure that if you drive 25 MPH in town and 55 MPH on the highway, you could EASILY achieve the sticker mileage.

    So what! Who drives 55 anymore on the highway? You'll get killed at that speed. Enjoy the car.You're lucky that you're getting 50 MPG and not 10.

    fastdriver
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    With no headwind.....

    and maybe a little help from behind.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I'm stating that Edmunds, CR, local Prius owner, and others with 04 Prius all are between 40 and 45 mpg average with 42 mpg the most common.
    It is simply difficult to believe your data when the examples you are providing are 50 mpg and higher. Perhaps you have the Tornado fuel saver installed in your Prius. http://www.wcpo.com/external/dwym/c3b519.html (Disclaimer - I certainly do not believe the Tornado will actually increase mpg)
  • tempusvntempusvn Posts: 119
    I'm confused, are you saying that people don't get better than 43 MPG in the Prius II?

    I can only speak for myself, but in the Month of May I had three tanks of about 500 miles each.

    I live in downtown Washington DC, and commute about 60 miles round trip every day. About 1/3 of it is "Real" City driving and 2/3 is "Highway" on what passes for Highways in the 4th most congested Urban Area in the country.

    I also run errands, and take an occasional trip out of town. This is the only car I have, so it's not just a commuter. On each of the last two tanks I took a trip up to WV which was about 150 miles round trip, and included true Highway Miles at 65 MPH on Cruise Control, and Rural Roads up there of all sorts.

    My last two tanks were 60 and 61 MPG (actually, a few tenths over for each, but who's counting). The previous one I was the victim of a "Bad Fill" where the pump never shut off and apparently sucked back at least a gallon of gas before I figured out it was putting in too much, hehe. The filler neck was full to the brim and the pump was still running happily. Argh!!!.

    Even with the bad fill, my three tank average for may, about 1480 miles traveled in mixed use driving, was 55+ MPG.

    I really don't know what other people are getting, but I'm pretty happy with my mileage.
  • kerenskykerensky Posts: 12
    I've heard some comments on other Prius forums about the DVD navigation system not being very accurate, especially compared to non-intergraded standalone Magellan and other systems. It's been said that Toyota will release a fix for the problem, but I was wondering if anyone living in the Northern VA area could tell me how accurate they've found the Prius nav system to be? I appreciate any help.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Don't be confused. I'm stating that CR, Edmunds and the Prius owner I know obtain about 42 mpg. 42 mpg is great mpg and nothing to be ashamed of. I'm stating that I'm still waiting for a major publication to obtain average above 45 mpg, or even someone local who obtains above 45 mpg average.
    Obviously there are always exceptions to the norm. I'm stating that my perception is that the norm is 40-45 mpg average and the above 50's and the below 40's mpg are the exceptions.
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    I was averaging 42 until I took John's advice. Now I am approaching 50 MPG. Last week I had a few days where I averaged over 62 but that was only 30 miles of driving. Overall I am pleased. I also can say for sure that I get DOUBLE the mileage of folks driving the Ford Focus. As you know we have a shop steward from Ford posting the wonderful attributes of the Focus as opposed to the Prius. Total stupidity. Oh well.
  • tempusvntempusvn Posts: 119
    Hmm, well, I gather I can't link to other sites from Edmunds, but there are a variety of places where people post their mileage as they go along.

    One place keeps a thread for each month. Some people post each tank, and some people post monthly totals.

    I cut/pasted the Tank Mileages and Lifetime Mileages from the entire month of May for a reference to what people are actually getting.

    Each entry is a post there. Some people may be represented by multiple posts as they entered each tank.

    Some folks posted in diff formats so individual tanks or lifetimes weren't available but I included everything for completeness (Well, except the International Posts - Easier to deal all with MPG, and since they don't have the bladder, who knows how the mileage may differ).

    May Mileage is better for just about everyone, because of the warming, of course.

    --------------

    Tank Mileage: 57.7
    Avg Overall Mileage: 49.5

    Tank Mileage: 41.4
    Avg Overall Mileage: 38.6

    Tank Mileage: 63.3
    Avg Overall Mileage: 58.75

    Tank Mileage: 46.2
    Avg Overall Mileage: 46.8

    Tank Mileage 50.2
    Avg Overall Mileage: 50.4

    Tank Mileage 57.5
    Avg Overall Mileage 48.0

    Tank Mileage 40.8
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    Tank Mileage 52.85 (Third Tank)
    Avg Overall Mileage 39.5

    Tank Mileage 54.55
    Avg Overall Mileage Not Given

    Tank Mileage 46.461
    Avg Overall Mileage Not Given

    Tank Mileage 65.9
    Avg Overall Mileage: 58.96

    Tank Mileage 60.0
    Avg Overall Mileage 50.0

    Tank Mileage 47.51
    Avg Overall Mileage 43.91

    Tank Mileage 46.9
    Avg Overall Mileage 46.9

    Tank Mileage 57.5
    Avg Overall Mileage: unknown

    Tank Mileage 49.37
    Tank Mileage 45.34
    Tank Mileage 47.14
    Tank Mileage 54.71
    Tank Mileage 52.87
    Tank Mileage 51.38
    Avg Overall Mileage 47.5

    Tank Mileage 41.6 MPG
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    Tank Mileage 55.0
    Avg Overall Mileage 50.7

    Tank Mileage 47.5
    Avg Overall Mileage 45

    Tank Mileage 46.7
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    Tank Mileage 47.7
    Avg Overall Mileage 48

    Tank Mileage 54.3
    Avg Overall Mileage 48.3

    Tank Mileage (4 Tank Avg): 50.8
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 52.61
    Avg Overall Mileage: 47.05

    Tank Mileage 54.7
    Tank Mileage 60.91
    Tank Mileage 61.53
    Avg Overall Mileage 51.51

    Tank Mileage 52.0
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    May miles 2523.8
    Gallons consumed 50.487
    MPG 49.98911
    Highest tank 5/28-5/30 249.7 miles. 55.36585366 mpg (coincided with highest ambient temp)
    Lowest tank 4/30 - 5/01 193 miles 46.28874388 (coincided with lowest ambient temp)
    Average Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 54.0
    Tank Mileage 55.5
    Tank Mileage 58.2
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 61.93
    Avg Overall Mileage 52.12

    Total for the Month of May:
    MIles traveled: 1734
    MPG for the month: 49.8
    MPG on current tank: 49.2
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Miles: 1,826
    Gallons: 34.015
    Avg Temp: 58F
    Calculated MPG: 53.7
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 49.4
    Tank Mileage: 49.96
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank miles: ....484 .... 408 ..... 418 ..... 480
    Overall Miles: .2136 .. 2544 .. 2962 .. 3442
    Avg Tank Mileage 49.88
    Avg Overall Mileage 48.03

    -----------------

    So, there's some more actual data points to consider when pondering what Real Life mileage people get from a P2
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Wow talk about mixing apples and oranges. It all depends on what speed you are travelling in each gear. And then you make the invalid assumption that the acceleration force is constant for the entire speed range in each gear. The you put the CVT in their with speeds , You could actually equate the CVT to different gear ratios, you know an analog to digital conversion.

    You know it is really interesting that the information you provides provides no real meaning, e.g the Camry is faster than the Prius (apprently except during 30-50 mph .8 or so downshift delay), but slower than the Corolla and the Excho even though it has hifgher g force numbers.

    Your apples and oranges input, LOL but not quite as good as your one on perpetual motion from magnets generating 450% efficiency. But the absolute best was that the Prius would acclerate faster if it had a bigger battery ROTFLMAO.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Original Beatle sold because it was cheap, unique and got good mileage. It din't even have a fule gauge , just stop cock that you turned when the first longer pipe ran dry.

    The new retro-Beetle sold for a premium at first and now sales are langusihing so much that VW is thinking of dropping it.

    I not sure demoniziing is the right word. It is just that the Prius is still slower than almost anything else you can buy and some people or really most people are not yet willing to give up performance for the sake of high gas mileage. And the people that are buying cars based on their environmental impact is even a much smaller number.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > most people are not yet willing to give up performance

    Where exactly do you use that "performance" ?

    Dodge's lastest commercial advertises the 150MPH Magnum. What's the point when speed limits are only half that?

    Since I never need 100% power to merge onto the highway with my 2004 Prius, what's the point of more power? Less than maximum clearly satisfies the need.

    Some of us have discovered the speed ceiling has already been exceeded. Purchasing beyond that, for abilities you won't use (can't legally), is simply a waste of money.

    Falling victim to "more is better" marketing is not something to brag about.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Actually is is 1.2 seconds which is noticable 0-60 mph. You said they were equal and they are not even close.

    It is okay for Prius owners to love their cars. What is not okay is to make statements that are untrue and ignore objective facts.

    Actually, this is not your forum it is open to anyone to post.

    If your time is being wasted, try driving faster or becoming XCELs buddy.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    >> most people are not yet willing to give up performance

    >Where exactly do you use that "performance" ?

    Almost every day driving to work and then driving back home. People in Texas, drive faster and more aggressive than in Minnesota.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > drive faster and more aggressive

    "faster" and "more" are vague references.

    Please provide quantitative values.

    You can't hide behind an "it's different here" excuse. We want actual proof. Exactly how many seconds does it take for you to merge onto a highway, at what speed, and from what distance?

    Where are the facts?

    You claim the current "performance" is not enough. How much more is actually needed?

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    You just descibed the typical Prius driver!

    and you said "you'll get killed at that speed. ..."

    and if they "enjoy the car" they will get lousy mileage.

    Wow! Maybe it it the slow-paced Prius owners that waste time, don't have a life (except for this and other I Love </l> Prius boards) and don't enjoy life.

    I know several that don't like vagueness, don't like any comments against the Prius and don't think perormance is necessary or at least want to redefine performance. For you I can only say have a grenn and prosperous high mileage emission free life.

    One serious factor the AMA recently noted that people who live near expressways or heavy traffic areas have a significantly lower morality rate due to the effect of car byproduct polution on the lungs.

    Promote Telework! End driving altogether!

    YMMV,

     MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    The lanes are 5 wide in each direction the inside or slow lane exits while the merging lane enters. The length of the merge lane varies from very short 300 feet to some that are comfortably long 1200 feet. The average is around 430 feet with a standard deviation of 77.3 feet. The speed range on the inside lane is dependent on the time of the day. Between 6:30am and 8:30am is averages 58 miles per hour. each successive lane adds 6.1 miles per hour so the outside lane is 82.4 mph. The spacing between cars varies from 1 car length to 3.3 car lengths. A gap longer than 3.3 car lengths is rapidly filled. To travel that close at that speed a person has to be very cautious. In teach of the ramps there is an acceleration portion before the actual merge area, it varies from nothing (rare) to 500 feet (also rare) most are about 300 feet longs with a 3-5 degree incline. The acceleration need to adequately accelerate with some comfort level is achieve by a car running 85% of WOT capacity on a car in the range of 8-8.5 , 0 -60 mph acceleration capabilities. Cars slower than than are passed from behind by other cars in the acceleration lane. For example a Honda Insight with CVT (0-60 mph = 11.5 seconds) from a person I know say they are regularly passed trying to get on the expressway. So to merge comforatably at 1`00% WOT a car with 9-9.5 (0-60 mph performance) would be needed. Now slower cars require them to wait a long time or to find someone who will slow down to let them in, which is even rarer. Just from observation statistics, if you turn on your blinker people close the get 83% of the time and about 80-90% of the time people will only allow you to merge if you are going the same speed.

    You know making something quantitative does not make it non-vague. The is one Prius owner that previously had a classic Prius and now has a new Prius. They post their per tank mileage and their overall mileage on their web site. Does that make the data accurate and factual, well no!. Is is audited buy an outside accounting firm , we no. Maybe the person wants to show really good mileage so the add 2 mpg to every item they post, we don't know. The point is the data is basically an opinion of that person and probably is correct, but maybe it isn't. It is very easy to use numbers and statistics to back up and justify anything even if it isn't true. There is a great book on "How to Lie with Statistics" that shows how this is done.
  • djasonwdjasonw Posts: 624
    It appears that a couple of folks (we know who they are) are clearly annoyed that a majority of the Prius owners actually enjoy their cars. For those that are appalled by the pathetic performance, they need to get a life and learn to mind their own business. The only negative posts I've read are by those people who are annoyed (uninformed people) that they're not getting 60 MPG and instead are averaging a paultry 43 MPG. My mission is clear. I am driving a wonderfully engineered car that gets great mileage with minimal emissions. If the Prius wasn't available, I'd be driving a TDI. I don't see anyone knocking that car as its performance (0-60) is less than the Prius. Some people are clearly perturbed that they simply can't understand the success this car is having. It annoys them to the point that they feel their only release is to post negative comments on an open forum. Unfortunately, their posts will not change the current climate. The Prius, along with other hybrids will continue to enjoy great success. The naysayers will be similar to the people that snubbed their noses at the horseless carriage. It actually is a close analogy since I truly believe the hybrid technology is quite revolutionary. Just take a look at the average 4 cylinder ICE and it probably averages in the mid 20's. At worse, the Prius gets DOUBLE the mileage. I call that revolutionary. Some folks can't admit that a change is a comin'.

    Looking forward to $4.00/gallon gas. The additional cost is worth it, if it changes our culture into more conservative people.
  • ragueroraguero Posts: 60
    I don't pamper my 04 Prius to get the best mileage. I drive like a bat out of h-e-double hockey sticks! All over town, in and out of freeway traffic, as much as LA allows that anyway. I am STILL averaging 44 mpg! There is nothing to complain about. If you want a real hot rod, buy one. If you want decent performance and excellent mileage, the only way to go is this Prius. Oh, and mine will go as fast as 105 mph. But don't tell my wife that.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > You know making something quantitative does not make it non-vague.

    Not true, it actually does.

    NEED can very precisely be measured.

    WANT is an opinion, so naturally it differs from person to person.

    Your use of the word "comfortably" expresses an opinion, hence still being vague.

    JOHN
  • "you make the invalid assumption that the acceleration force is constant for the entire speed range in each gear."

    You are right. Those thrust(g) values for 4-speed multi gear transmission are calculated from the ideal engine torque peak. In reality, traditional car's thrust(g) should be less. In contrast, Prius E-CVT's value will be much closer to the calculated values.

    "but slower than the Corolla and the Excho even though it has hifgher g force numbers."

    It will be hard to make statements like that because you are talking about a fraction of a second. The thrust(g) for corolla and echo were used with the same wheel size. I don't think Echo comes with 15" wheels.

    "but not quite as good as your one on perpetual motion from magnets generating 450% efficiency"

    I know Minato Motor could work because I constructed a similar motor myself. The only diference is that he uses electromagnet with microchip to perfect the timing. I use my hand with PM and achieve inefficient results. There are differences between you and me. I'll leave you with a quote from JFK.
    "Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why?'
     I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not?"

    "But the absolute best was that the Prius would acclerate faster if it had a bigger battery ROTFLMAO"

    Stop laughing and think for a second. If Prius has higher capacity battery, it can discharge more electricity during acceleration. This enables the Power Split Device(PSD) to put more horsepower to the wheel, instead of routing hp to MG1 to generate electricity. Higher capacity battery will also be able to provide enough electricity(in terms of capacity, not discharge voltage), during winter as well.

    Dennis
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