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Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150

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  • Does anybody know what happened to Ford's plans to have twin spark ignintion on their new 3V engines?
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    will probably come with hybrid technology...like honda does.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    The Tempo had a twin spark engine in it for at least a year. Didn't notice any remarkable improvement from that.
  • The Tempo never had a twin spark engine. The Ranger pickup truck had a twin spark 2.5 liter OHC four, but never the Tempo. The Tempo used two versions of the ancient pushrod 2.3 liter four (which I think was derived from some 50's era inline six).

    I had read rumors that Ford was working on a 300+hp twin spark Triton 5.4V8. I was just wondering if Ford had a more competitive engine waiting in the wings. It looks like Ford either needs a more powerful engine or a better transmission to match the performance of the Titan.

    In the meantime, someone should work on getting the Nissan drivetrain in the F150.....
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I could swear the Tempo had that twin spark 2.3L one year.....but if I'm wrong, did it do any good in the Ranger?
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    1992 and half of 1993...the tempo had a V6. same 3.0L that the base taurus and ranger still have. i might be mistaken, but didnt that engine have twin spark in its early days?
  • The Vulcan V6 never had twin plug ignition.

    Did the twin plug head on the Ranger's 2.5 SOHC inline four do any good? Yes, but given that the engine was such an outdated lump it was hard to tell. I think it was more like Ford attempting to squeeze the last ounce of utility out of an ancient design. A noble pursuit, but without significant gains.

    As many of you likely know, Mercedes uses twin plug 3V heads on most of its engines. It seems to work well for them - why not Ford?
  • That 2.3l four cylinder was a stout motor. It wasn't a huge performer, but it got great gas milage and had great reliability. I took one over 140,000 miles and never had the valve cover off. The tempo was OHV while the 2.3l found in mustangs, rangers and aerostars were OHC. The fact that there were used 1974-95, and in minivans is a testament. The dual spark was introduced early 90's. I believe the current Ford 2.3l is an all 4V aluminum version of this same motor, with tweaks in design. The Turbo 2.3l found in Mustang SVO's were quite the motor that could easily hang, and out slalom the v8's of the day.
  • keaneckeanec Posts: 349
    Didn't the old Nissan 2.4l have a dual spark plug setup? I had a '84 Nissan pickup (my first new vehicle) and it had 8 sparkplugs in a four cylinder. Is this what you guys are talking about? I don't think it was a 3 valve design though, but isn't this old tech?
  • Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance.
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    has been recycled into a modern version in the focus for 2004...weird.
  • Anyone knows why Ford's 5.4L is only 3V not 4V? Honda has SOHC 4V for a long time. 4V and 3V (if both SOHC) are the same width if size is a concern (to fit in Econoline's doghouse).
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    If Ford put the 4V engine in, they would have the Lincoln Intech engine, without paying for it. This way, they get close.
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    is also a marketing gimmick...many truck buyers are afraid of 4 valve engines because of the old wives tale of low torque.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    "has been recycled into a modern version in the focus for 2004...weird"

    The old 2.3L shares nothing with the new 2.3L that's found in the current Focus. Two totally different designs that ironically have the same displacement.

    "Anyone knows why Ford's 5.4L is only 3V not 4V?"

    Cost, efficiency. The 4V as Nvbanker stated, would be Intech which is used in the Navigator.

    "Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance"

    Very true, that was the main emphansize of Ford's engine redesign.
  • Tough month to be selling trucks, unless your Nissan or Toyota or GM or Chrysler?????

    "GM's truck sales were up 12.8 percent. Ford's truck sales fell 4.7 percent, despite the continuing success of the F-150 pickup. Chrysler sold 21.5 percent more trucks than the previous January.

    Jim O'Connor, Ford's vice president for North American marketing, sales and service, expressed confidence that the company's new models of cars would yield results by the end of 2004. "

    Ford, GM Report Decline in January Sales
     
    February 4, 2004 06:10 AM EST
     

    DETROIT - As the overall car and truck market stagnates, General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. saw sales drop more than expected last month even as Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. continue to surge in the American market.

    Together, domestic and foreign makers reported a 0.7 percent drop in car and light-truck sales for January.

    GM, the world's largest automaker, said Tuesday that its new car and truck sales fell 1.8 percent in January, while Ford reported a "painful" decline of 9.8 percent.

    Nissan said its sales soared 25.7 percent, while Toyota's climbed 15.8 percent. Honda sales fell 3.7 percent.

    DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group was alone among the traditional "Big Three" domestic automakers to report a positive month, noting a 9.4 percent increase.

    Analysts had expected frigid weather in much of the country to offset brisk business at the end of January. But if the weather was a factor, it did not appear to affect all companies.

    "Perhaps it only snowed on GM and Ford dealers during the month," quipped David Healy, an analyst with Burnham Securities Inc. "Bottom line, it's the same old story - the Japanese brands are eating Detroit's lunch."

    The seasonally adjusted annual sales rate for January was 16.1 million units, compared with 16.2 million in January 2003. The sales rate indicates what sales for the full year would be if they remained at the same pace for all 12 months.

    "January sales results were below expectations," said John Smith, GM's vice president for North American sales, service and marketing. "While we had good results in some divisions ... a new industry record in sport utility sales and strong truck sales overall, car sales and sales in certain regions were disappointing."

    Ford, the nation's second biggest automaker, said it remained optimistic that a new car lineup would change its fortunes.

    Both GM and Ford saw the biggest declines in their car sales, with GM's car sales down 16.8 percent and car sales for the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands falling 20.1 percent. Chrysler's car sales also fell, declining 23.2 percent.

    GM's truck sales were up 12.8 percent. Ford's truck sales fell 4.7 percent, despite the continuing success of the F-150 pickup. Chrysler sold 21.5 percent more trucks than the previous January.

    Jim O'Connor, Ford's vice president for North American marketing, sales and service, expressed confidence that the company's new models of cars would yield results by the end of 2004.

    "The most painful declines from the standpoint of our overall performance are the midsize cars - the Ford Taurus and the Mercury Sable," Ford sales analyst George Pipas said in a conference call with investors. "Painful in the sense that mid-size cars still represent about 20 percent of total new vehicle sales in the United States."

    Taurus sales fell 26.6 percent, and Sable sales were down 47.1 percent.

    But Pipas said "help is on the way" in the form of two new mid-size sedans, the Ford Five Hundred and the Mercury Montego.

    Also going on sale this year, which Ford has dubbed "the year of the car," are a redesigned Focus, a new Mustang, and the crossover Freestyle wagon.

    The car introductions mark a shift for Ford, which like other U.S. automakers, has put most of its emphasis on pickups and SUVs in recent years, losing ground in the car market to Japanese companies.

    More:

    "As U.S. automakers have neglected the car market, Japanese companies have gained ground with trucks. Nissan, which last year introduced the Armada, a full-size SUV, and the Titan pickup, saw truck sales soar 65 percent last month. Toyota's truck sales were up 27.4 percent."

    Full Text of the Story:

    http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=1&aid=D80GD6300_st- - ory
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    chrysler sold more trucks because they have more "light trucks" than they did before.
  • "The 4V as Nvbanker stated, would be Intech which is used in the Navigator"

    -But Lincoln's 5.4L is a DOHC.

    ""Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance"

    Very true, that was the main emphansize of Ford's engine redesign."

    -So where is Ford's 2nd spark plug?
  • haironghairong Posts: 153
    Sticking to this topic, Ford F-series had a record month for january, at 61,979, up 9.6 percent, while Nissan sold 4,035 Titan. If you notice, Ford's year over year increase is more than the total Titan sales. I don't claim to know Nissan's monthly sales goal, so I will ask Bowke, do you know what was Nissan's projection for Jan? And was Nissan satisfied with Titan's sale so far? All I know is Nissan's published goal of 100k for 12 months. Thanks.
  • keaneckeanec Posts: 349
    Don't forget the record month for f-series includes, all the 2003s F-150s that have been heavily discounted, all the heritage models, and most importantly F-250, and f-350's. Ford has been pretty secretive about breaking out the number of the new 2004 F-150s sold. They just say it helped.

    As to the 4000+ Titans sold. Nissan is extremely satisfied as they really didn't have much inventory on many dealers lots. It is going to take a while to get the inventory to the level where customers can buy their choice off the lot. Many people (including me), have had to order and that takes up to 90 days. I read an article that said the Nissan brass is very happy at how well it is selling.
  • haironghairong Posts: 153
    What's your point? Didn't Ford have all the "heavily dicounted" 2002 F150s, and the F250s, F350s, back in January 2003? A 9.6% increase to a new record is impressive, and it's due largely to the all new '04 F150. Fact is, since the introduction of '04 F150, F-series sales had double digit (if you round 9.6 to 10) increase for 5 months in a row, while setting 3 monthly records. Considering the heavy incentives have been there for more than two years, the only plausible and logical reason is the new f150.
  • keaneckeanec Posts: 349
    You are making assumptions and that is my point. Ford has not released (that I know of - maybe you have info I don't?) the figures broken down into how many new F150 2004 non heritage edition they have sold. If we go by the fact there was an increase so it must be the new F-150, then that is a assumption, not a fact. The fact is Ford sold 12000+ Econoline Vans this January and 11000- ones last year for a 12.6(lets roundup to 13%) increase. Was that because of the new F150?

    Another fact is Ford sold 84,278 F-150s in Dec 2003, which you say is a record - but they sold 84,657 in Dec of 2001 - not much of an increase, eh?

    My point wasn't to cut down Ford about how many new trucks they sold, it is just be careful how companies say things. I would like them to give us a breakdown of how many of those F-series trucks that were sold (not to the dealers, but the end consumers) were the new F-150's.

    We know exactly what Nissan sold, but we don't know what the new F-150 sold.

    Besides - Ford is going to sell a ton of F-150s. Nobody is really disputing that. Each Titan that is sold a new sale for Nissan and a lost potential sale for Ford. So, in January, Ford sold 4000+ units less than they could have sold.
  • hjodyhjody Posts: 5
    Actually, all 4000 people that bought a Titan wouldn't have bought a Ford, perhaps they would have bought a Dodge, Chevy, Toyota, or even an Acura...So, saying Ford lost 4000 potential buyers isn't exactly correct...
    I'd like to see the sales figures on the F-150 vs. Chevy 1500 vs. Ram 1500...why can't they publish the half-ton sales individually?...what are they hiding?...I own an F-150 myself but honestly I've never seen so many Dodge Rams in my entire life...their sales have to be up, bigtime...
  • keaneckeanec Posts: 349
    Hairong.

    Just to go a little further, Ford actually had the 2nd worst increase of full size truck sales in January.

    Nissan Titan Jan 2004 N/A no sales in Jan 2003
    Toyota Tundra Jan 2004 23.7% increase over Jan 2003
    GM F/S trucks Jan 2004 15% increase over Jan 2003
    Ford F series Jan 2004 9.6% increase over Jan 2003
    Dodge Ram Jan 2004 1 % increase over Jan 2003

    This probably means that Ford loss market share in Jan 2004, although how much? who knows.

    What is obvious from these numbers is the F/S segment grew in Jan 2004.

    Make any other assumptions you want.
  • keaneckeanec Posts: 349
    Ford chose to use a different calculation than the rest of the companies. If you modify their numbers to match Ford's calculations, then Chevy was up 13.5%, Dodge 4.74%, Sierra 21.2% and Toyota 28.6%
  • haironghairong Posts: 153
    I like the way you skew the fact to support your argument. The new F150 caused E-van increase? Of course not. It's the reason for the F-series increase? Yes, of course.

    What you call assumption, I say obvious. Let's use common sense here:
    1) 2 out of 3 F150 factories produce the new F150 (at full speed), the other one, '04 heritage model;
    2) dumping of the '03 F150 started in Sep. 03, it had been going on for 5 months before Jan. 04.
    3) HD F-series is about 40% of the total, and pretty steady, likely not the reason for double digit increase 5 months in a row.
    My conclusion: Unit wise in Jan. 04, '04 F150 > '04 heritage > '03 F150. ANT may get you some hard number. I will also ask around.

    If you insist on calling it an assumption, fine. I would say my "assumption" is about 95% correct, the other 5% being HD F-series had significant increase. Do you want to bet that my "assumpiton" is wrong?

    PS: you number on December F-series sales should be reversed, it's 84,657 for 12/03 and 84,278 for 12/01. So, yes, it is a new all time record against an old all time record.

    PPS: regarding total full size PU sale, I already posted it yesterday. Since it did not fit this topic, I posted in another thread,
    hairong "How long before the big 3 lose the truck market?" Feb 3, 2004 4:00pm
    with a title, Everybody's happy.
  • keaneckeanec Posts: 349
    You're not getting any of my point. Chevy/GMC had a much bigger increase and didn't have any Brand new hot model to sell. The f-150 reference to the econoline was a joke; although I was making a point that the econoline is still the same old econoline but it increased even more than the F-150.

    The whole market for full sized trucks increased but Ford was the 2nd worst all all the full sized manufacturers. No assumptions there.

    So if you take your assumption as fact (that is fine by me) the new F-150 might have increased the sales of the F series, but not as much as the competition, and in that sense, the new F-150 isn't yet the success you are making it out to be. That is not saying that it won't become a success going forward, Ford seems to be stuck in a small rut right now, though, and that might be hindering the F150 also. Things can and do change, so we will see if it is a positive and negative one for Ford going forward.

    By the way, Edmunds has a new F-150 as a long term tester and so far it is a mixed review not looking to good. That too can change over the course of the next year or two. Especially since they are also getting a similiar Titan as a long-term tester to compare to! Maybe the F-150 will rise way above the Titan, maybe not. :-)
  • bowke28bowke28 Posts: 2,185
    include everything from a regular cab 2003 handshaker to the f-650/750 super crewzer.

    f150 retail sales by itself are usually about 45% of the total.

    i cant say for ford as a whole, but we have sold more f250s and f350s in the last few months than any other time in the past.
  • haironghairong Posts: 153
    bowke, bowke, I asked you for some hard number on Nissan, look what you give me: some bogus Ford number.

    1) F-series is from F150 to F550, 650/750 are not included. Ford calls them Heavy Trucks and count them separately.
    2) In 2003, Ford sold 845,586 F-series, 350,320 of them were F250-F550, good for 41%. In other words, F150 accounts for 59%, not 45%.
    3) Heavy Trucks (F650/750s) sales were 976 in 12/03 and 839 in 01/04. If Nissan were to have commercial trucks in NA market, these number would have had significant contribution to Titan sales (trying vainly to be on topic). But for F-series, they barely even register.

    You said you are also a Ford dealer, you really should have known better. Now where is the Nissan number.
  • haironghairong Posts: 153
    keanec,

    From "Don't forget the record month for f-series includes, all the 2003s F-150s that have been heavily discounted, all the heritage models, and most importantly F-250, and f-350's",
    to "You are making assumptions...We know exactly what Nissan sold, but we don't know what the new F-150 sold",
    to "the new F-150 might have increased the sales of the F series",

    I am glad I convinced you that the new F150 did increased the sales of the F-series. Common sense always win out. Actually Ford sold over 26k of new F150 in January, about 8k of the old ones (03&04 models), so there you go.

    "The whole market for full sized trucks increased but Ford was the 2nd worst all all the full sized manufacturers. No assumptions there."

    There you go again. Trying to skew the fact in your favor. If I may, let me try to spin it in Ford's favor.

    1) For the past two years, GM monthly market share have fluctuated anywhere from 26% to 32%, a direct result of their different incentive level. So their increase really did not surprise me. OTOH, Ford market share have been on steady decline, sad but worked in my favor for this case.

    2) Ford, Nissan and Toyota all benefited greatly from their new products. But since their base number were so different, 56k, 0 and 6k respectively, the percentage number are all over the place. If you look at unit increase, at 5428, 4035 and 1500 respectively, Ford may have made more profit on the increase alone than
    Nissan made on all Titan sales in January. How's that for a spin.

    3) Percentage wise, Titan's number is out of the universe. But, even if they only sold 1 Titan in Jan., the number is still out of the universe. That's why I asked bowke for Nissan's projection in the first place.

    Like I said, everybody is happy. They should.
This discussion has been closed.