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Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150

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Comments

  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    I think NV's correct.

     

    The fastest a throttle can open on a direct cable system is only limited by the operator's human motor control. If we assume that drive-by-wire is faster, it still cannot be faster than the operator's foot.

     

    On drive-by-wire systems the throttle is opened by a 4-pole stepper motor. Any computer lag time issues aside, these typically have a 50-150 millisecond reaction time, unless you're talking about a very expensive motor. The computer circuit that operates the throttle motor will have a reaction speed as well. This is typically limited by whatever clock frequency (speed) is plus the buffer (op. amp.). It's very likely that a drive-by-wire system could have as much as 300 ms delay, even in the best of circuits.

     

    Three-hundred milliseconds would not necessarily be noticeable to the average driver. But it is very doubtful that drive-by-wire could ever be as fast as a direct cable operated throttle, in my opinion.

     

    Dusty
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    but dont forget that slack that forms in a cable, along with the imprecise nature of a mechanical throttle. the ETC has no lag in a cable, and the only lag time is in the computation for the right mixture, which you dont get in the mechanical ones...therefore, you get the "throttle lag".

     

    this throttle lag is extremely apparent to me on non-ETC vehicles now that i know the difference.

     

    drive the ford, then drive the nissan, and you will see the difference.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I'm taking my anecdotal evidence from the complaints on the Lexus boards, where the drivers are complaining about the "hesitation" in the throttle response caused by the drive by wire in the new models over the older ones. It seems noticeable to them. Maybe Nissan has a more expensive motor? Doubt it though.
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    being more expensive has nothing to do with it. the lexus motor is a toyota, so maybe nissan just did it better...maybe the software in the lexus is faulty...who knows...all i know is the response in the titan is noticeably quicker than the f150. nissans engineers say its because of the DBW.
  • oldharryoldharry Posts: 413
    DBW may not change the response time, but the computer limits how fast the throttle opens.

     

    I drove a Titan last week, and I did not like the throttle, it felt "twitchy". With my chevy, or any number of other Chevys and Fords, pressing slowly and gently on the pedal causes the truck to ease into motion, great for backing the hitch ball under the tongue. The Titan did nothing until the pedal moved significantly, then started moving with a twitch.

     

    I did not like the feel of the steering either, but that may be just personal preferences.

     

    Harry
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,651
    but the computer limits how fast the throttle opens.

     

    This can be good and bad, I suppose. Good because it will help those drivers who think they can force more power out of their trucks (under a load) not pour all their fuel out their tailpipes. Bad because if the response is not as sensitive as wire at low speeds, that would certainly be an issue (for me and others who use trucks for their primary purpose). Nearly every time I drive my truck, I'm either backing up to something or hitching a trailer solo. A jumpy truck wouldn't help much in such precision situations as these.

     

    Honestly, why buy a..... Oh, nevermind. We're talking light-duty full size trucks here. No sense in my stirring up the waters. *sheepish grin*
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    "I did not like the throttle, it felt "twitchy"."

     

    thats because with older, more traditional throttles, you have a split second of "lag time" between when you hit the gas and the vehicle goes. most people have become used to this, and going to an instant throttle in the titan can be disconcerting at first if you are not ready for the power. with the titan, there is almost no lag at all. it goes as soon as you touch the gas, with no delay.
  • oldharryoldharry Posts: 413
    It was a twitch. I touched the throttle very gently, and there was no immediate response until the pedal had moved a fair amount, then the vehicle "twitched" into motion. It was not a strong enough response to call a surge. With the mechanical throttle on my truck, I can increase the engine RPM a few at a time if I try, the Nissan gave nothing till it jumped about 50.

     

    In drive by wire, as the Nissan has, engine response is not more instantanious than mechanical linkage. The opening of the throttle plate allowing more air into the intake is still what raises the RPM. Instead of a cable or rod, DBW has a rheostat that signals a computer that you want more power. The computer sends a signal to a controller that feeds electrical power to the throttle motor.

     

    As throttle response is controlled by movement of your foot, there would have to be a LOT of stretching in the cable for the computer to open the throttle sooner.

     

    I have driven Cadillacs with DBW, and their's is smoother than Titan's.

     

    Harry
  • jrc346jrc346 Posts: 337
    I am 99% sure the 2004 F-150 came out with drive by wire throttle. Besides, these milliseconds spoken of are in MOST cases beyond detection. The main difference in how the two trucks here take off, probably has to do with torque converter differences and 4-speed as opposed to 5-speed auto transmissions.

     

    While I find that under "drive by wire advantages" you do see "responce," automakers seem to site other reasons for adapting this technology to their vehicles. These include the desire to reduce moving parts, and to eliminate whole parts like the idle air control motor, and TPS senor and making one unit with all of these sensors/functions combined.
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    i guess i should play the lottery...im on the 1% side this time...lol.

     

    the f150s do not have DBW.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    They have "Electronic Throttle Control" which in essense, same thing.

     

    BTW, 939,511 F-Series trucks sold for 2004, shattering the previous all-time record of 911,597 set in 2001. Just though I'd share since the "they'll never sell that much again because of new competition" bandwagon was concerned...
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    has ETC only for the 5.4L motor. the other 2 engines are still antiques...lol.

     

    also, the ETC wasnt on the truck till the '05 models. when the redesigned truck came out in '03, they all had a mechanical throttle.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The redesigned truck debuted MY2004, and has had ETC from the start.
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    my fault. the 5.4L has ETC, but the 4.6 and 4.2 do not.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,651
    Wow. That's a heck of a lot of trucks. How many of those are F350s and below?

     

    I honestly haven't noticed all that many new F150s or Titans up here in Fairbanks. Both are quite noticable because they are in marked contrast to other pickups on the road. Most of the new Fords I see on the road are 250/350, and Titans.... hmm. I have seen 3 or 4 that I know are different rigs, but maybe the 150s and Titans both are more popular with the military folk and just don't commute/drive on the side of town I frequent as much. I see new GMC 1/2 tons more than anything else, but our local GMC dealer (Aurora Motors) tends to garner a lot of local "loyalty."
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    all are f350s and below, some are fleet, but the vast majority are f150s.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Xwesx,

     

    927,002 are F-150-350, only 12,509 were above.
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    i think those 12k units are only f450 and f550...no 650 or 750s in that equation.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    How many Titans were sold in 04? Did they get to 100,000? My Dr. across the street was disgusted Saturday, with his Armada - said it's been "one thing after the other" go wrong with it. Been in twice for brakes in 18,000 miles.
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    they got to almost 90k. impressive with the slow start they had.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,651
    That's pretty good for an entirely new truck. Shows that Nissan did their homework before they entered the market, regardless of the few production jitters they encountered.

     

    That's absolutely incredible, Ant. I find it unbelievable that so many entered the roadways in one year. If you estimate an average length of 20' per rig, that's around 3,500 miles of back-to-back Ford pickups. Yikes.

     

    I wonder what the national average is for length-of-ownership on trucks? Most of the folks I know usually keep their trucks for 10+ years unless they have some glaring problem with them that they cannot handle, as opposed to about 6 years for their cars/small suvs.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • dbauerdbauer Posts: 416
    heavy or super duty trucks have a long ownership average, especially diesels.

     

    but simple 1/4 or 1/2 ton trucks are not much different from passenger cars when it comes to trade cycle...generally between 27 and 39 months.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,651
    Seriously? Haha.... I guess that explains why the salespeople to whom I spoke when I was looking for my last car thought I was crazy when I said, "I want my vehicle to reliably go 10 years as a primary vehicle." My '96 Subaru is approaching the 10 year mark here in another 8 months and I'll probably end up having it another 3 years or more as my primary. And, that's at 20+K per year. If I drove it at 12-15K annually, I'd expect to get another 5 or more out of it pretty easy.

     

    I cannot see how purchasing a vehicle is a good investment if you only hang on to it for 3 years or less.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "Shows that Nissan did their homework before they entered the market,"

     

    They sure did xwesx, they shamelessly copied the new F-150 from bumper to bumper! But so did Toyota on the first Tundra, and why not, it's the Gold Standard evidently.
  • jrc346jrc346 Posts: 337
    Unconfirmed Titan sales for 2004 are 83,848.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,651
    Imitation is the best form of flattery! And, I don't see how Toyota could have possibly copied Ford with the T100, that truck isn't half the truck (okay, so maybe 3/4! haha) of a same-model-year F150.

     

    And, I suppose it is just yet another opinion out there, but the Titan is most certainly distinct and separate from an F150. Both manufactures departed, quite blessedly, from the trend toward soft, sleek looks (as did Chevrolet to some extent, but I think their aesthetic quality took a nose dive because of it - pun intended). However, if you take a look at the Titan, it follows the same general trend as the rest of Nissan's products in appearance. I personally like the appearance of the Ford better, but I'd buy neither because I need a truck to really work and a 1/2 ton just can't cut the mustard. If I were to consider them at all for some off reason, I'd do so equally because folks on both sides of the fence have laid forth good pros and cons. Other similarities, like bed and interior dimensions, should be similar because Ford knows how to make a functional pickup, so why should Nissan try to buck a system that is obviously what the consumer wants and has wanted for decades? They aren't trying to make a specialty vehicle that will appeal to a small market....

     

    -Wes-
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    No, you're right on that one, I don't know what the T-100 was trying to be, but rugged, it was not. Still, it was a long lasting, if wimpy and softly sprung truck. It resembled an El Camino in handling and size. They are still running around, mostly doing pools in this area...... Very light duty.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,651
    Ah, I actually mis-interpreted you on your "Tundra" post. I guess I do not look at the Tundra as being a new introduction as it was really just a model rebuild/makeover to salvage market share after the T100 introduction. To me, it was like deciding to call their compact pickup a "Tacoma" rather than just being a generic Toyota pickup. I'm sure the modifications were much deeper on the T100-to-Tundra makeover, but it's all about perception and mine didn't change. So, when you said "introduced...Tundra," I interpreted it as the first introduction, i.e., T100. *shrugs*

     

    Anyhow, enough of Toyota, this is about Nissan and Ford. My apologies for the detour all.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • I've been gone for a while so sorry i couldn't get back to you sooner "aspesisteve."

    All the mods that i have put on my truck -except the chip- have, over all, helped my gas mileage. But when the chip is in- i start to see my gas mileage go from 16 to about 12 believe it or not ...so it really depends what you want in a truck. The horse power i gained was probably not worth the gas mileage, but if you want an extra 20 horse power then go for the chip also.

    exhaust on a f-150 is always a must (in my opinion). For one thing it always adds an awesome look and sound (assuming you get the 40 series with the 3" tips or something like it) and it also allows your exhaust to "breath" better. as far as manufactures go Flowmaster guarantees 10-12 hp. And if you want some other brand besides flowmaster- Gibson is what i would call "2nd" best.

    intakes are anyones guess, but i have been very happy with my K&N system. I think they have been selling on ebay for around $150. It'll give your truck around 10hp and it also adds a nice mix of sound with the exhaust.

    chris
  • just an update.... that titan le 4x2 with 7k miles on it still sits un-looked at with a 24k price tag on it. its been a full 2 months now. 83000 units indeed. 83000 people that wont be getting out of their misguided purchase any time soon.

    just thought youd wanna know.
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