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Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

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Comments

  • Actually, stability control is not that important on FWD cars.

    Electronic skid control is very important on top heavy vehicles such as SUVs.

    Electronic skid control is more beneficial on RWD cars because when you enter a turn too fast the rear end slids ut and is harder to control by the normal user. On FWD you merely skid forward with lcoked wheels instead of turning. Easier to control.

    In the case of FWD skid control it is useful if a driver has inclement conditions (indecending order: snow, ice, rain) and tends to drive TOO FAST for the conditions. For 99% of FWD dreiver they will never activate electonic skid control. And of that 1% that do actiavate it, having it will only prevent an accident in 5% of the cases.

    While Skid control does provide a safety balnket for drivers who drive too fast for the condition and SUV drivers in genral, it provides only a insignificant benefit for FWD cars.

    The 2006 Honda Civic is an excellent car, especially the manual 6-speed Civic Si Coupe in Rallye Red!

    koolkinkajou said:

    "So Honda has made a deal with the devil and traded safety for styling and the “Car of the Year” award (which is probably given to the biggest bribe anyway) .
    The bottom line, is you can’t take that award into the operating room at the hospital! "


    What a uninformed, sour grapes statement! Honda is one of the safest cars available. If there were any truth at all in the above statement, then it would be mandatory that ALL cars had electonic skid control as a standard feature!

    From Brains,

    MidCow

    P.S.- I never have learned to drive an automatic or I would hvae considered a Prius!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There are 2 issues to discuss, active safety, such as ESC you mention, but also passive safety.

    Civic won the Gold award from the IIHS for passive safety in frontal offset/side crash tests and headrest evaluations. That can't be ignored.

    Fact is, indeed you might collide, but to say you'll end up in the hospital after the Civic won Gold (Prius didn't make the top 10) is very unfair to Honda.

    -juice
  • earthearth Posts: 76
    I have the coupe 06 EX, and no, its not real noisy. Had the 03 Corolla, and its was noisier than the new civic. Next car will be the Prius though. Don't believe some of those that say its noisy, its just not true and don't know what they are talking about or have it in for the honda.
  • It is true that ESD can avoid a certain percentage of accidents, and that Honda has made the trade-off (for now) of making the top of the passive protection pile instead of following others. The main benefit of ESD is to be seen in rear-drive vehicles, especially when excessive speed is involved.
    Since people who are inclined to buy hybrids are also inclined to drive more conservatively, this lack of ESD is even less significant.
  • I actually looked at all three candidates, for brevity Prius=P, Honda Civic Hybrid=C, Insight=I

    I decided what my goals were:

    (1) good miles per gallon
    (2) relaible
    (3) maual transmission
    (4) fun-to-drive ( some performance, some handling)
    (5) cost effectiveness- not just mpg savings
    (6) features

    Now add Now 2006 Honda Civic SI 6-speed coupe w/NAV = S

    (1) P=++, C=++ I=+++ S=+
    (2) P=+++ C=+++ I=+++ S=+++
    (3) P=--- , C=2005 ++ C=2006 ---, I=++ S=+++
    (4) P=-- , C=-- , I=- S=+++
    (5) P=-- , C=+ , I=+ S=+
    (6) P=+++ , C=++ , I=+ , S=++

    H'mm it looks like the following ranking:

    First = 2006 Honda Civic SI
    Second = 2005 HCH 5-speed manual
    Third= 2006 Insight 5-speed
    FOURTH= 2006 HCH CVT
    FIFTH= 2006 Prius CVT

    These results are a small sampling and may not be scientifcially accurate. Also, you opions, testing and findings may vary. It is just that I have found the only way hybrids are better is in mpg and that all folk's as Porky Pig used to say.

    Double sixes,

    MidCow
  • Hey Cowboy,
    I agree with you on most counts. Hybrids aren't as fun to drive as they should be, because too much of them is automated. If I could manually operate the engine shutoff, it would be much more efficient, since at present it frequently kills itself just before the light turns green, and I could manually shift it on my ride to work more efficiently than even the ECVT, which is pretty hard to beat anywhere but on the highway. I used to drive a Justy, which got me better than 50mpg just from my 'gentle touch' driving habits. It got crumpled between a pickup truck and a guard rail after Subaru stopped shipping them over here. You shouldn't have to buy an expensive hybrid in order to get a reasonably safe and efficient car, but I am not about to drive around with a highly explosive tank of natural gas, so here I am with an '06 HCH.
  • "For 99% of FWD drivers, they will never activate electonic skid control. And of that 1% that do actiavate it, having it will only prevent an accident in 5% of the cases."

    I guess since 99% of the time you won't need your seatbelt you shouldn't bother putting it on.
    Or since 99% people won't need their airbags, they should save the money and not buy them. Actually 99% is not a highly reliable number.
    You wouldn't want to get in an accident 1 out of 100 times you go to the store. The space shuttle is a little over 98% reilable ( 2 accidents out of 117).

    Additionally, I haven't seen anybody say that ESC isn't needed on front wheel drive cars. In fact, I've seen a discussion that indicates it is still needed on AWD cars.
    I guess they are just putting ESC in FWD cars for show like pinstripes.
    Granted ESC isn't going to save you from every accident, but if you keep a bible in the glove compartment, you should be ok for the other 95%.

    All that aside, I reviewed the safety features for the Civic and Toyota and I came up with a couple of nuggets I overlooked.

    To the advantage of the Civic, it has "Active Head Restraints" which is a nice feature that prevents whip lash (which 99% of the people wont need :shades: )

    And the Prius has a Tire monitor guage which alerts you to loss of air in the tires.
  • Apparently you did not read my statistical disclaimer:

    I said :
    "These results are a small sampling and may not be scientifcially accurate. Also, you opions, testing and findings may vary. It is just that I have found the only way hybrids are better is in mpg and that all folk's as Porky Pig used to say."


    koolkinkajou said: "Additionally, I haven't seen anybody say that ESC isn't needed on front wheel drive cars." Well, I for one say it is not needed, so there is a least one. Only needed if you do not drive correctly for the conditions.

    My choice is still the Civic Si. The Prius is one of the slowest Toyotas made!

    YOMV,

    MidCow
  • :blush: :surprise: :P
    Some people think that the Toyota Prius is the standard by which other Hybrids are to be measured, but not me!! Who made the first Hybrid car? Obviously it was Honda in 1999 with the Insight! Everyone else saw that Honda is the leader in Hybrids so then they created their cars to compete against Honda. It is easier to make your own hybrid when you already see someone elses design. Honda might not be all over the place advertising their Hybrids, but they sure do have a better reputation than Toyota. Believe me, Honda knows where to put what in their cars in favor of the drivers convenience. If you wanna compare the Prius to the Accord or civic hybrid, there is no way. Compare it to the Insight, genius, and dont just look at the features inside. Compare it to the same hatchback bodystyle and to the gas mileage. I dont believe that a 1.5 liter engine can acheive 60 miles per gallon. It gets around 36 in the real world. In someones high gas mileage prius world, it gets that kinda mileage which serves as propaganda. So there! Have it your way, but morew people have it my way and I take the stand with Honda and not Toyota. :P
  • Why dont they stop makind Diesel vehicles already. we have hybrids so move over diesels that cause asthma!!! Long live hybrids!!!:)
  • I assume you are talking USA becuase hyubrids are the leading economy car overseas.

    Actually, when they get clean sulphur, more compnies will import diesels into the USA besides Mercedes and VW and they will give the hybrids a run for their money!

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    P.S.- It has become a proven fact that for the first 5 years of their life hybrids are less economilca than an equivalent gas/diesel only car.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi MidCow:

    Even on ULSD as available in Europe, the cleanest Diesel in the Toyota Verso D-4D cannot touch Tier II/Bin 5. Ford and DCC have their Urea injection into an SCR but Toyota may not have that in their patent portfolio unless it was one of the techs Ford gave to them for the FEH’s eCVT/HSD tech. All you need to do is look it up. Euro IV using ULSD is 250 and 350% higher in PM and NOx over Tier II/Bin5 and Tier II/Bin5 is the worst case scenario here in the states starting next year. Damn things couldn’t be sold in CA or the other Green States this year and CA. already has ULSD available … DCC is saying they will have the Blue-Tec/SCR CAT placed in their Diesel MB’s for 50 state certification available very soon. Cleaning a CI-ICE to US emission specs is not an inexpensive proposition by any stretch.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • Zzzzzz Zzzzzz
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi MidCow:

    Do I have to teach you everything or do you think you can use Google to figure some of this out on your own rather then posting non-sense again and again and again?

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • Wayne,

    Cool Beans, No problem, teacher! If you don't know the answer, yes I can look it up on Google. By the way I don't think the word nonsense has a hyphen ;)

    Have a Good Day, cruis'n at FE better thna EPA :shades: ,

    MidCow
  • mk004mk004 Posts: 5
    Re: Who made the first Hybrid car? Obviously it was Honda in 1999 with the Insight!

    Actually the Prius came out first and started selling as a 1997 model in Japan.
  • Since there are waiting lists and dealer markups on both HCH and Prius, it is a seller's market. The more info buyers have about actual selling prices, the more power they have in negotiating with dealers. Let's use this thread to give buyers more power. How much did you pay for your hybrid? In order to compare apples to apples, be sure to use the "Cash Price Vehicle" cost. This is the bare bones price without accessories, or any other taxes/fees.

    We bought a 2006 HCH w/o NAVI on 2/26/06 at Stevens Creek Honda, San Jose, CA, for $25,100.
  • Even if that was an out the door price you paid way too much. You should have gotten an EX sedan. The difference in mileage savings on your $25,100 HCH would be realized unless you keep your car 10 years!

    For only $6,000 more you could have gotten a S2000 ant invoice and had some real fun!

    Keep on cruis'n :shades: ,

    MidCow

    P.S.- I did the $6k more and I'm only getting about 23 mpg on premium. But with a short-shift 6-speed and a loud Invidia exhaust it is hard to drive for hyper-mileage :P
  • Prelude2, most publications currently laud Toyota as the leaders in hybrid technology, and, like mk004 said, the Prius is the actual first mass-produced hybrid, having been sold since 1997. Also, the Prius CAN achieve, even surpass 60 mpg, so long as you drive more like one's grandmother than one's adolescent son. The mileage isn't propaganda-- companies are required by law to publish EPA mileage estimates; Toyota and Honda have acknowledged that the EPA estimates are misleading, but it's also not the manufacturer's fault that American consumers are so stupid and ignorant sometimes.

    Oh, and I've seen countelss advertisements for Honda's hybrids (much more than for Toyota's hybrids).
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Read the lastest Consumer Reports article about the "The dollars & sense of hybrids".

    Quoted: "In our analysis, none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership (see Hybrids vs. all gas). Nor did any when the analysis was extended to 10 years and 150,000 miles. Rather, extra ownership costs over five years ranged from $3,700 to $13,300. "

    Out of 6 hybirds they tested ,NONE were more cost effective after five years than their equvalent non-Hybrid models.

    I find it humorous that the Prius no equivalent is equated to the Corolla.

    Lucky I didn't buy a hydrid, becuase who in their right might lake's to drive like thier grandmother :confuse:

    Double Sixes,

    MidCow
  • bravoqbravoq Posts: 5
    CR made a small error in their calcs:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/14045918.htm

    ``We deeply regret the error,'' Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, said in the statement. :cry:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They are still making a lot of assumptions, one big one being that hybrids will maintain the high residuals they've enjoyed so far.

    75,000 miles from now, there will be many more new hybrid options out on the road, it's very difficult to guess what they will be worth once there is more competition out there.

    We also don't know what gas prices will do, they have fluctuated wildly in the past couple of years. That also affects resale values and operating costs.

    -juice
  • jrbldrjrbldr Posts: 3
    You miss the point entirely. People buy a hybrid to make an environmental statement about their concern for the planet and to use as little fuel as possible, whether the additional investment pays back or not. Global warming from greenhouse emissions is widely acknowledged to be an accelerating phenomena that will take decades to stabilize even if we begin to decrease CO2 emissions immediately. With this knowledge, purchasing a vehicle or anything else that wastes fossil fuels unnecessarily would seem to be pretty selfish.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    jrbldr said:

    "You miss the point entirely. People buy a hybrid to make an environmental statement about their concern for the planet and to use as little fuel as possible, whether the additional investment pays back or not."

    Your opinion, okay. But most people and the adverstisements are still hawking the mileage savings ... which really don't exist.

    Let me ask you a question and answer it honestly. How many of the people that want to use as little fule as possible have installed solar water heaters, solar electric panels, and wind electric genrators on their houses, only use a push non-gas lawnmower, and ride a bicycle for all short trips where possible? If they really want to 'use as little fuel as possilbe' the answer would be yes to all of these. My guess the real answer is only tenths of one percent.

    I decided I did not WANT to put up with the sacrifices required to drive a Hybrid. I economize and practice good business money managmeent, but gas is only a minor expense in the big picture.

    Double Sixes,

    MidcOW

    P.S.- If you are really interested in reducing polution replace coal electric generation with nulcear! Go nuclear!
  • davhandavhan Posts: 21
    Hybrids do make a lot of sense in Australia.

    Fuel prices in Australia are = $6.00 to $6.50 per gallon for standard!!!

    Plug that into your pay back data and see what happens.

    I've just purchased a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid for that reason.

    Honda Civic Hybrid $35k (on the road)

    Prius $41k (on the road)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Welcome to the forum.

    You live in a country I would love to visit. Keep us posted on how you like the Civic Hybrid. By comparison what does diesel cost in Melbourne?
    Gary
  • well, now that i have owned both of these fuel miserly cars for a while, i think i'm in a good position to compare them for other people.
    1-both cars have been getting about 50mpg with me and my girlfriend driving them.
    2-the prius has a MUCH bigger back seat (front seat and hatch area feel about the same size)
    3-both of the vehicles accelerate about the same (the golf is a little faster, but feels much quicker because of the manual transmission)
    4-the bright red prius has much more curb appeal than the anthracite blue golf
    5- the golf keeps it's 50 mpg rate at 75 mph. the prius doesn't
    6- the prius is MUCH easier to drive in heavy traffic than the manual transmission golf.
    7- the prius has more high tech gadgets, but the golf gadgets and accessories have been more well thought out.
    8- the diesel vw golf can tow a 1300 lb trailer at highway speeds with no difficulty. the prius can't.
    9- the diesel isn't nearly as fun as the prius 0n 5 degree fahrenheit mornings as i back up through the cloud of smoke made by the ice cold diesel engine.
    10- i run 20% biodiesel in my golf, i can only run 10% ethanol in the prius.
    11- on an overflowing tank of diesel i can travel over 800 miles in the golf, i only seem to be getting about 450 miles to the tank on the prius.(cold fuel bladder seems to keep the tank capacity well under 10 gallons)
    12 the golf cost 20,300 (list price, no deals), the prius cost a little over 24,000 (also list, no deals)

    each of these cars has shown itself to be suited for different jobs and we use them for such.
    heavy hauling gets done by the golf
    long road trips at 80mph get done in the golf
    commutes through rush hour traffic get done in the prius.
    driving somewhere with 4 people definitely gets done in the prius.
  • engnrngengnrng Posts: 4
    Although Toyota first introduced the Prius in 1997, Honda was first in North America with the Insight in 1999. The present Prius is actually Toyota's 3rd generation in the marketplace. However, the Toyota Synergy system using the highly efficient Atkinson cycle gas engine (compression ratio 13:1) and 2 electric motor/generators was first developed and patented by good old Americans in El Segundo California working for TRW automotive systems in 1974. Of course, they couldn't interest anyone in Detroit in the technology, so it died until Toyota picked it up and made it work during the mid-1990's.
    BTW, I proudly averaged 45 mpg in mixed driving of my Prius during the first 25,000 miles. My wife started driving it and averaged 49 mpg, with a little more highway driving. Needless to say, I have been taking lessons... My primary motivation for buying a Prius was/is the low emissions (EV-1 was no longer available), and, yes, I do have solar electric at my house, along with solar hot water.
    I test drove a new RX 400h for over 15 miles, averaged 28 mpg on combination driving. Seemed nice but a little noisy until I made sure the 3 back seat latches were properly caught.

    Have Fun!
  • swtoreswtore Posts: 1
    They also had the wrong price for the Civic EX used for comparison to the HCH, and intetionally used conservative fuel economy numers for the hybrids, assuming most buyers will drive them like they do. Most hybrid owners, as opposed to the average driver, will likely try to optimize their FE by revising their habits to the suit the car.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Agreed, but those same buyers would do the same with an efficient gas car. So that might sway the numbers unfairly the other way.

    -juice
This discussion has been closed.