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I am still experimenting to be sure it is not an anomaly. Give me a couple of days to confirm what I am seeing. I still cannot quite believe it is using up less than or equal to 0.1 MPG as I climb our hill. Just got home from an errand and left with the read-out at 25.8. It fluctuated as I drove around town and and came home with the read-out back at 25.8. Strange. It seems too good to be true although I am seeing it more often now over the past month.
This happens for the temperature range of 55-65 (or higher), tire pressure is still 37-psi.
The only change is timely acceleration to give the car sufficient momentum to charge up the hill but in a manner that does not eat up too much gas. This makes sense because it is just physics but I need to verify that it is really working so well for our HH.
Once I can really confirm this, will post here with more usable details.
The HH actually makes perfect ecological sense for those of us who need a real working car the size and power of the HH. It also is the first SULEV rated "working" car that is also a FULL HYBRID.
When I need to tow ranch equipment or need to haul a heavy load, the car can meet most of my requirements so I do not need to use our Chevy V8 trucks. It can run on electric even when hauling a heavy load and the motors provide clean power when towing. When I have a light load and just driving around town, I can hypermile it and run on electric as much as possible to save gas.
There is no truck or SUV out there today that supports such a wide range of performance needs. And each time I work around our ranch, I thank the HH for not stinking up the whole place with exhaust fumes like our Chevy's.
I do not know what Toyota had in mind but from a user point of view, the HH is a very practical and ecological sensible real-world hard working car. I only wish that Toyota will create a 4x4 Tundra that uses the HSD.
As for babying the car, I think it is not just for hybrids but for all cars. When I drive a stick, I still coast on NEUTRAL and shift earlier or at lower shift-point to save gas. When I drive our old power-tranny van, I still coast a lot on N too and try gentle acceleration. All for the sake of saving a few gallons of gas. Just cutting speed to 65 from 60 will help, cut to 55 and we will be saving millions of gallons a day.
I just do not see how any technology can relieve us of individual contribution.
2.4L ICE @154 hp
3.3L ICE @215 hp
3.3L HSD @268 hp
There will be 2
3.5L ICE @268 hp High performance
2.4L HSD @190 hp High Economy
The SC would be driven by a 3 phase electric motor with its electric drive provided by a variable frequency solid state drive from the ~600 volts hybrid source. In most cases the SC would simply "lag" along only supplying atmospheric airflow levels, little or no power consumption.
But get aggressive on the accelerator and the SC motor drive spins the SC up to a serious BOOST level within milliseconds.
mmreid
We could not be happier with this vehicle. I have said it before and I will say it again, the combination of performance, low emissions and gas mileage is astonishing. For me, this HH hit the bullseye. The HH replaced a 2000 GMC Yukon 4X4 with the 5.3L motor. The HH not only provides better performance, it delivers twice the MPG. If I had the choice between a 4-cyl ICE engine coupled with the electric motors versus a 6-cyl ICE engine coupled with the electric motors I would opt for the higher performing 6-cyl, because for me, the extra performance is important. Not because I "need" it, I just like it
Two Questions (both concerns the HH):
1.) I have noticed several comments in the Escape Hybrid forum (at this and other sites) commenting about the electric motor(s) overheating. I don't recall any such comment in this HH forum. So, thought I'd ask the question: has anyone experience an electric motor overheating condition on the HH? If so, could you give some of the details, please.
2.) I'm wondering if the Nav Sys option for the HH Ltd is worth the extra money. I suspect the answer is, it depends. But, for someone who once or twice a year goes on an out of town trip to an area he hasn't ever been to (which means the use of the Nav Sys would be put to good use) and someone who intends to drive for maximum "reasonable" FE, does the extra expense make sense for my needs?
***(Note: I currently possess a Lowrance i-Way 500C Gps system which is quite good for my needs, but it is portable and not permanently mounted. I find myself disconnecting it each time I leave the car for fear of giving a would-be thief a "reason" to break a window to gain access to my car. Not having to do this is of "some" value.)
I know the "Pay Back" answer would be not to spend the $2000. But if economics were ones only concern, one wouldn't buy the Hybrid at all.
Thanks.
Check the NTSB site too to see if there are owner complaints on file. I would suggest search under both Prius and HH.
(2) NAV.
My wife wanted it, I did not but it is growing on me. Most useful when I am driving alone to a new destination. If I make a wrong turn, the NAV will auto-correct and auto-plot a new course to destination. It also serves as a back-up to my paper maps. If I did not have it, I won't miss it. Now that it is here, I do use it more and more.
(3) NAV - Energy Flow Animation
Without the NAV screen, you will not be able to see the energy flow diagram. Hard to explain on line, you can see it in a Prius or a HH at a dealership or go on-line to Toyota sites and see a demo. Some owners do not miss this but I am actually very happy we have it. It helps me visualize and adjust my driving habit.
The "Pay Back" reference raised an alarm . Please consider the following:
1. I expect the HH to return EPA rated gas mileage.
2. I have little time to learn, practice, apply and adapt hypermile techniques to my locale.
3. I expect the HH to pay back purchase-premium through gas-savings.
If the 3 statements above all ring TRUE, the HH may not be a good candidate. These 3 exepctations are set so high that the fall can get painful.
It is much better to first look at size, room, safety, creature comfort, reliability and usefulness. If the HH meets all the needs in these areas, then consider whether the SULEV rating and the potential, not the guarantee, of achieving stellar class-leading FE are worth the money.
An even better approach is compare the HH to a similarly priced Mercedes or BMW or Acura or Chevy or GM or Ford. Compare luxuries, engine and all other items that you care about. Then remind yourself that when buying these cars, it is MONEY SPENT, MONEY GONE. There is no "pay-back". If the HH's short list still attracts your attention after all that, then the HH will make a good candidate.
You will be happier with the right expectation.
Good luck!
This is an excellent point often overlooked. This vehicle, and it's Lexus twin, was originally designed as a performance vehicle for an upscale buyer, primarily Lexus, who would like to drive a midsized 'V8' with excellent fuel economy. This is the expectation one should bring to acquiring either the 400h or the HH.
I find it kinda funny when I hear a car commercial or read a review for a durango or the new tahoe, they talk about "...and you can upgrade your engine to the more powerful hemi and it comes with cylinder deactivation so you can save gas too- it's like having your cake and eating it too- oooohhhh!!!" and talk like this makes these engines wildly popular. buy as soon as you mention the word "hybrid," which does essentially the same thing, people go running for the hills.
I understand why the HH isn't selling great, but I figured the rx400 and the accord would fly off the lots.
anyway, I'm sick of sitting on the sidelines. there's 2 hail damaged HH sitting on my dealers lots. I'm gonna see what kind of discounts are on these cars. I just hope a dinged up hood doesn't increase drag killing any FE gains
As for the NAV system, I do mostly local driving but I love that screen that shows how the engine and batteries etc. are working (it really helps you know what you are doing) and I like the touch screens for climate control and the audio system. Very cool and high tech.
If cost is a factor, you can go get a Honda Civic or Toyota
Corolla and get really good mileage and a much, much cheaper car. The HH isn't just about cost. I do love the fact that when I'm suddenly near a lunatic driver I can hit that pedal and get the heck out of Dodge and far away from crazy driver person and the vehicle is really responsive.
Another thing we loved this past weekend was we finally got to use the third row seat - had 2 kids in the back and 5 adults and we spent over an hour in the car each way and all were comfy. If I hadn't had the HH we'd have taken two cars.
One has to admit that cars are about more than transportation and the whole advertising thing for them is geared to selling us lifestyle and machismo and sex appeal and all that jazz. Even the Car Talk guys once said that people who drove Volvos were people who put crash helmets on their kids in the bathtub. . .The car you drive seems, in our culture, to make a statement about who you are. It may be wrong but that seems to be the dirty truth.
In my case, I wanted a hybrid SUV that would let me see and not having near accidents because everyone else was driving an SUV or pick-up or min-van and it was getting harder and harder in my little Acura to see to make turns and back out of parking spaces etc. The minute I saw the HH I was a woman in love. . .I'm getting better fuel economy than in the Acura and on regular, not super premium (it runs great on regular 76 or BP - i don't buy off-brand gas)and I love how it handles. Was it expensive? Yes. It was the first time in my life I ever paid sticker price for a vehicle. But we also wrote a check for the car (minus trade-in) and for us, not a big deal. I also intend to keep it for a really long time unless something radical happens - like a car that gets 100 mpg or something like that. Or runs on radish juice. Whatever. Heck, I saw on the news last week that Brazil is running everything on biofuel. . .completely
oil independent!
mmreid
It's in the Dealer Invoice price for the specific vehicle you are looking at in your locality. It's normally separate on the websites because it varies from region to region and the websites are national.
Do not pay the "advertisement assessment", it is a mark-up, period. We always got up and walked when the dealers wouldn't budge on this item.
About the only legit fee we pay is the "destination charge" and it is $500 for our HH in CA.
Watch out for "dealer prep" and several other things that are add-on. One Toyota dealer here agreed to a low offer from us and then tried to sell all sorts of prep, undercarriage treatment and so on that added back up to $2000 just as we were about to sign the papers. So we politely refuse the deal and the sales manager backed down. He was of course extremely cool and terse from then on.
It may seem strange to haggle over $780 ($600 in our case) when buying a $42K car but I rather like to decide what and how much to spend on what. $780 can fly a bunch of us to Disneyland and pay for all food and lodging .
He gave me the following off that report:
HH 4WD Ltd Dealer Invoice is $35803 which includes $786 dealer hold-back.
HH 4WD Ltd bottom line invoice price is $35017. This excludes the hold-back.
HH 4WD Ltd w/ NAV adds $1700 invoice making it $36717.
CR recommends negotiating using either $35017 or $36717 as invoice basis depending on what you want.
Your quote of $38419 is higher. It may of course include other items like hitch and so on, I won't know.
I agree that the "advertising" fee is not something you want to pay. Good luck.
Destination charge in CA for HH is $600, not negotiable. Our experience with advertisement fee & the $2000 add-on negotiation happened when buying our van, not when buying our HH.
I know when I was shopping for my last car I spent quite a bit of time thinking about what the neighbors would think of my new car.
The minute I saw the HH I was a woman in love. . .
The Highlander is a car people fall in love with!
I just want to let you know that I appreciate your willingness to share your experience and expertise with this online community. You help make this a great resource.
My only agenda is trying to figure out what's causing my poor mileage. My conclusion is that the answer is either (b) my driving profile does not allow me to take advantage of the HSD, or there's something wrong with my vehicle.
And that's what pisses me off. And my anger is targeted at my dealer. First, they should know that certain driving profiles will deliver phenomenally lower numbers than the EPA estimates and they should disclose this to customers before the purchase. And secondly, when I brought my car in to have it checked, they said everything is working like it should and mentioned nothing about any "ISC Learn" process that could be affecting my mileage. So shame on them.
And by the way, the class-action case I mentioned in an earlier post is entirely possible. It has nothing to do with suing the government over EPA estimates. It has to do with Toyota and its dealers systemically misleading or withholding information from its customers. I'm not going to start anything, but I'm sure there's an idle lawyer out there willing to take a chance on something like this. Based on what I read on this site, there are plenty of potential plaintiffs.
May be just need to give yourself some time. I was watching the Edmond Lexus board last year because the 400h came out first. There was a lady who was really upset after trading her BMW for the 400 and got "poor" mileage for a long spell. I can go back and look for it if you would like. In any case, after a long running series of complaints, suddenly she announced she finally got her first 24 mpg (I believe) and then 26 and she becamse a happy camper.
Many on that board tried to tell her the same thing we tell everyone here, try this, try that, give it time and so on. It finally worked out for her.
What is odometer reading on your HH? We were getting 22-24, mostly 22 in the summer for the first 1000 miles. It did not reach 28 mpg until after 2000 miles and even then, it was 26-28. By 5000 miles, we were consistently at 28 or higher, sometimes up to 29.
None of this great mieage (at least to us) is from a lot of fancy Priuse style "hpermiling", just normal driving. Normal means non aggressive, observing speed limit, coast to stop and easy but brisk acceleration and follow the traffic on the freeway.
I hope this all works out for you.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/?14@@.ef0c00b/54
Note: you may have to retype the above url) Seems like, and I didn't do a tally, that about half feel one should pay for the advertisement and half feel one shouldn't. I guess for me it all boils down to whether or not the dealer actually has to pay for Toyota's national advertisement campaign or not. I say National as compared to a local campaign as all dealers usually advertise to some degree to their local customers and we all agree not to have to pay for this as a separate item. Has anyone seen an "actual invoice" from Toyota to the dealer for a particular auto?? (Note: I'm not talking of the computer generated invoice that we are usually shown by the sales person.)If so, did it show the advertisement fee (usually called "TDA")? And to take this a step further, if the actual invoice does include a TDA, did the dealer show you his payment to Toyota that included that charge?
A couple of days ago I found a site (just tried to re-locate it but couldn't) that stated that Toyota just settled a class action law suit claiming that toyota was using the Advertisement entry expecting the purchaser to pay but later rebating a portion of that amount back to the dealer. The Class Action alleged that this was against some federal law. It went on to say that all claims had been paid by Toyota by 2002 so the suit was fairly old. Toyota admitted to no wrong doing on its part.
I also found at the below site:
http://www.siennaclub.org/forum/index.php?s=bd09ced0415c430e9c930bae8e6bb3f8&sho- wtopic=800&pid=41932&st=0&#entry41932
what was purported to be an actual 2003 Toyota Sienna Van invoice. I'm not sure how to properly translate the invoice, but surely the talley of left column entries which looks like the invoice price for base van and extras and tda and hold back and finance costs and other items are not all paid for by the dealer as indicated by the total for this column titled "DLR." It doesn't make sense that the dealer pays for all those items then gets them back. So I suspect that the dealer actually paid:
$24,090 + 2,826 + 565.35 + 535 + maybe 250, and then he got $560 + 54 + 280 as a "holdback" to him. Note: I have no idea what the "M.A.F" cost of $361 is???
Anyway, back to my question: has anyone seen an "actual Toyota invoice?"
Somone posted base price data from Consumer Report in response to your question. Based on your research, it seems the "advertisement" fee of $780 closely matches the "hold back" of $786 listed on the CR research. Hmmmm... conincidence? $780 vs, $786 to circumvent the "old settlement" in your research? Makes me wonder.......
In any case, if CR is to be belived, the dealer is making an impressive gross (not net) profit per HH getting off the lot.
When we bought our Sienna, there was only the computer invoice. At the time, I was using CR as well, just like another poster, and the moment he knew I was using CR data, the whole haggling process shortened. It became a matter of him deciding whether he wanted the deal and how much gross profit we were willing to pay him. I believed the MSRP was $28690 and we walked out paying only $25850.
Where have you had your maintenance done? Toyota Dealer or Private Authorized by Toyota? How much should it cost and what are you getting? One Toyota Service includes a 19 point inspection visually only. Which doesn't mean too much to me. After I went in for my 5,000 miles maintenance, my gas miles when down = to when I 1st got the car. It's back up to 26 mpg now, but I fear it's going to go back down again. Anyone else had the same problem? Much thanks all for previous information on this forum
Every 5K mi or 6 mo's change the oil/filters and rotate the tires; When the tires are being rotated check the brakes. Dats it. It's in your Maintenance manual. On the HH the 3.3L engine has a timing belt that needs to be changed somewhere in the 60-75K range.
In the Maintenance manual the small items above the shaded area are what has to be done each interval. If you change your own tires regularly then you don't have to do it on the specific schedule they say.
The last few days in seattle have been above 60F and that has helped my mpg go from 22 on cold days to 26 to 27 the last two days. If you have been driving only in winter conditions that is part of your problem. Also please dont assume every dealer glossed over low mpg problems. I can promise you as i sat in the 400h just prior to taking off from the dealer for the first time my salesman told me: Toyota wants you to be happy with your mpg, its going to average around 25 mpg as far as we can tell and you might get close to that with an rx330 if you want and save ten grand. Of course after driving the hybrid i knew nothing else would satsify me. This dealer was also monitoring actual mpg on cars they had sold by calling the owners. They called me once a week for three months after my purchase to ask about ANY concerns i had. If anything my dealer under promised and over delivered.
Amen, brother (or sister). We're in the market for a new family car. We have four children so we need at least seating for 6, plus we need to tow a small (1800 lb) trailer several times a year.
What are my choices for a vehicle that gets more than 20 mpg around town and seats 6 (even forget the towing)? Almost none. The HH is the only thing out there that fits the bill.
What if I want 20 mpg or more and want to spend less than $30k? There's nothing out there. $30k is enough money that there should be more than one option. [If there is, and I've missed it, let me know!]
I wish enviromental groups and CAR MANUFACTURERS would realize that some of us have very little choice when it comes to fuel efficiency. No matter what we want to do to decrease our dependence on oil, we can't do it if the product isn't there.
You should look at the Sienna or Odyssey. Both carry 8 people and tow as much as the HH. Much roomier and both can get mileage equal to the HH. Both can be bought under $30k.
NO, not even close.
Sienna AWD is EPA rated 17/23 with 20 mixed. ULEV?
Sienna 2WD is EPA rated 19/26 with 22.5 mixed. ULEV?
Odyssey 1 trim level is EPA rated 19/25 with 22 mixed. ULEV-2
Odyssey another trim is EPA rated 20/28 with 24 mixed. ULEV-2
EPA rated mileage for these vans range from 20 to 24 and we all know in real life, not many of us can get EPA numbers.
My HH is getting 24 MPG real-life in normal cold winter use and we expect it to return to 28-29 MPG when summer gas returns in April. If we take it easy in winter, mileage goes to 25-26 mpg.
I know we want to generalize because averaging is the most popular way to do this. Unfortunately, generalization does not work for the HH because it is very dependent on driving style and terrain. Those 2 factors makes off-handed simple averaging uselss.
To be fair, one needs to present both sides of the story.
We drive 7 people around a lot, either 1 driver and 6 kids or 1 driver, 4 kids and 2 adults. The kids' age range from 4 to 9 and the tallest is around 4-ft. Two of them always take the 3-rd row. I have squeezed one 5'8" adult in the 3rd row and she said it was OK for a short trip but not for anything more than 1 hour.
The problem is what happens long term. Because your four children will grow and once they hit the 5-ft mark, the 3rd row becomes a tight fit. You also have to consider room for gear. With the 3-rd row up, is there enough space to carry whatever gear you may need to lug.
Another problem is long trip. When 4 of us go camping for a week, the amount of gear will not allow use of the 3rd row if we want everything to fit inside. If we have to take more people, we must use our overhear carrier.
I really appreciate your situation because at the very end, we were comparing a Sienna against the HH. We really wanted the room in the new Sienna but we dislike the lousy mileage and the emission rating. So we bit the bullet and got the HH instead.
If stupid GM would make a FULL-HYBRID Tahoe that gets 28-29 mpg, I might have bought one. Like you, I wish the car companies understand that some people need bigger car but not the giant engine and the lousy mileage.
I didn't need room for 6 but did need carrying room and the HH has fit the needs very well, it's really proven to be quite flexible and does well with people and cargo. Plus it's comfortable, more responsive, a pleasure to drive and now that gas is back over $2.50 a gallon around Philadelphia and climbing, it's even nicer to fill up less often. Sure a lower price would be nice but now at 6500 miles we're still happy and totally trouble free, with the temperatures back up around here mileage is coming up, even with a good number of short hops. Even at its lowest it's never gotten less than 20% better mileage than the van it replaced. - John
My HH mileage is absolutely better than you claim. What is your HH mileage?
SULEV to me is an important issue especially when I crawl on city streets or our place and when summer smog hits our area.
Whether others will pay for the car is irrelevant, what is relevant is providing unbiased first-hand experience and practical data and let the person decide.
As for HH sales, Up or down, no trend yet. January '06 was 2300+ units and February was reported at 2631 units. 29% of all Highlander sales is the Highlander Hybrid. Green Car Congress provides this data and there is a graph showing HH sales trend.
See the data at
http://www.greencarcongress.com/sales/index.html
Scroll down just a bit and you will see the February sales data.
I believe your position is that applying P&G to gas engine cars will do as much for gas efficiency as gas-electric hybrids and that diesel is a viable alternative. You do not believe gas-electric is a worthy choice, true? I agree with some parts of your first two positions but not the third. People should apply P&G to gas-engine cars and biodiesel is a real alternative if the emission problem can be solved. Gas-electric is also viable as the Prius has shown. We will just continue to disagree on that last one.
I have to admit that when we bought the HH I was not really thinking about the smog but it really is becoming one single most important factor now that spring is here and it really hit home yesterday on a trip out in the countryside that I was doing the best I could for the smog-reducing efforts. Gliding, listening to the wind, and smelling the spring air was one beautiful combination that without a HH ticket one would not understand completely. Just beautiful!
YYYaaaa! I am with you on this all the way. Hit a country lane, meadows and wild flowers on both sides, on a crisp clear spring morning, glide and smell the crisp fresh mountain pine, NOT the exhaust from my own tailpipe .
We went to Pinnacles national monument a couple of weeks ago and as we pulled up to the gate station, Mr. Range asked that we turn off the engine but he was actually hearing the blower. So we turned off the fan and everything went silent. He talked to us a bit, gave us the info and brochure and as we pulled away, he yelled, "Love that hybrid!!!". Guess he noticed . With that salute, we ran on electric all the way on the flat portion until we hit the climb to the ranger HQ .
Then we ran on electric around the ranger station looking for a parking space and 2 more rangers came up to talk to us about hybrids.
We can argue all about money, gas mileage, battery acid and so on but I must say, there is nothing like driving on full electric at a national park. Next stop, Yosemite Valley!
I'm not sure we disagree on the enjoyment you are gaining from owning the HH. I am happy for you. I really jumped in when someone asked if there were any vehicles that would handle their needs for under $30k. Not everyone can afford a midsized SUV that sells in the $35K to $43k range. A loaded HH in San Diego MSRP of $43,665 and a TMV of $42,954. Near luxury SUV prices.
I have a question for you as a hybrid owner. What is your take on the slow sales on hybrids for Jan & Feb? Especially the Prius. I was expecting a real sales blast after the first of the year, by those hoping for a tax credit.
Sales of Prius' are not weak as you suggest:
PRIUS ... 6,547 .. 7,078 .. -7.5% .. 14,201 .. 12,644 .. 12.3%
source:
http://www.pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2006030112235
Jan and Feb are the two slowest months seasonally in the Toyota calendar. I'd be very surprised if the sales didnt exceed last year's 100,000 units by the end of the year, despite the launch of the TCH and the new Lexus'.
I won't know why the Prius sales is down. KhdSpyder has a good insider's reply for that.
*UNAVOIDABLE:
Destination Charge
Documentation Fee (although it goes on to say that if charged, $50 is warranted and to question anything over $100.)
Gap Insurance (This item for leased vehicles.)
Title & Registration (The administration & handling cost to be included in the above "Documentation Fee" but the state's costs to be whatever the state charges.)
(Sales Tax)
*Maybe:
Advertising Charge (States that more and more regional dealer cooperatives are assessing fees. Further, if the charge shows up only at the closing, contest it. "You may end up having to pay.")
Extended Warranty
*Avoid:
Additional dealer markup
Dealer preparation fee
-----
The above list are things that we already knew. As far as the Advertisement Fee, it wasn't definitive nor conclusive about whether to pay. However, in the cost breakdown for this vehicle, CR did NOT include the advertisement fee when recommending the base (starting point) for negotiations. Also, CR suggests that a 4% profit is REASONABLE, and I THINK they would leave out the advertisement charge when calulating the dealer cost + 4%.
Anyway, I suspect you all are tired of hearing about this advertisement fee thing so I'll move on.
Someone else posted the Green Congress report that stated that Prius sales were low.
I am curious if the US dealers sold twice as many cars in September as February, why didn't they get their 1 for 1 sold allotments? It looks more like if you sell 2 we will give you 1 to sell. What I am trying to say is if you get one when you sell one you should have the same amount for sale in February as you had in December. Are they stacking up in parts of the US? From fall sales figures there should be a large surplus on the lots at this time.
Also Toyotathon - the yearend blowout during December - draws all the inventory levels down so that many items are gone by Jan 7th of any year. Jan/Feb then are used to stock up again for the Spring/Summer selling season. There is no reason to have vehicles anywhere in the system if they aren't going to be sold. It's why Toyota often has the lowest 'days in inventory' numbers. In the Fall after the strong Summer season like this past one we had at times 15 days of inventory on hand at times and in some products 2 days of sales ( Corolla's ).