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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • dcm61dcm61 Posts: 1,478
    Got the lean toward the OB XT, but you didn't side for the $200 or $10 steak dinner. How about the $89 or $5000 cruise (or the free ballistic style one)?

    DaveM
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,712
    BMW system is a full time AWD, not part-time reactive. It is biased roughly 60%rear 40%front under normal conditions. Power to both axles

    Not for MY '04. It's been changed to 100% RWD, and shifts power forward as needed.

    Bob
  • zmanzman Posts: 200
    $10.

    And I could see a Subie Crew cruise.

    Zman
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Not for MY '04. It's been changed to 100% RWD, and shifts power forward as needed"

    It only goes into RWD mode about 112. Other times the system performs as Mark detailed above. However, the system is infinitly variable as far as power to the axles and to the wheels.

    Like the FX it starts out a 0mph as a split between the front and rear axles and then works as described above. In addition, the system if slip is detected the xdrive will attempt to handle it, and if it can't fall-back to the DSC.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,712
    what the BMW dealer told me. He said 100% RWD, and shifts power forward as needed. He said the the system had been changed for '04. On '03 X5s, it was 60/40 front to rear, but not any more.

    Bob
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    my comments are based on that and info on the website.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Posts: 28
    The AWD system used before 04 was locked in how power was distributed. In 04, the x3 and x5 went to the Xdrive system. I don't know how to post the website, but Autoweek Dec 8 2003 interview with X3 product manager details how the system works. It is NOT 100% rwd. Your dealer is not accurate.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,712
    that with the revised X-Drive, there is never any time in which all 4-wheels receive at least some power? That there is never a driving situation in which the car ever be 100% RWD, or 100% FWD?

    Bob
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "That there is never a driving situation in which the car ever be 100% RWD, or 100% FWD?"

    If the two rear wheels have no traction, it will be 100% FWD. At speeds above 112 (where they got this number I dunno), it's 100% RWD.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Unless there is some sort of center differential, I don't see how it could be full-time, i.e. used on non-slippery surfaces. Audi uses a torsen, Subaru uses a viscous coupling. Mercedes actually has an open differential and lets the traction control distribute power.

    I guess we need to know more about BMW's new system. Anyone have a URL? Maybe they do what Mercedes does, i.e. open differential.

    I'm really curious to drive one now. What I like about the Subie is that it doesn't feel like FWD. I bet the Bimmer has that same feel, the FX probably also.

    XT can actually tow 2400 lbs with the MT.

    I don't think I'd get the X3's sport package either, not on a family oriented utility vehicle.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Bear with me here, I'm not familiar with it but I'm reading from the BMW USA web site.

    They say they use a multi-plate clutch, which is basically what Subaru uses on the auto tranny Forester XT, FWIW.

    Question is, how do they get around the binding issue on grippy surfaces? They say in an understeer condition, more power goes to the rear. Oversteer sends more power to the front. It doesn't meantion the steady-state power split.

    Here's what's interesting, they say on slippery surfaces the axles are locked together. When it's not slippery they aren't. So how does the multi-plate clutch disengage to allow the axles to spin at different speeds during, say, a U-turn?

    I'm asking just out of interest. That's not explained on their web site, nor is the default power split.

    More from the site, they say under the most challenging conditions, it delivers variable power to the individual wheels.

    Again, that doesn't address non-challenging, steady-state conditions.

    The videos show the AWD working only in curves and driving over water.

    Bob's dealer could still be right.

    Even though the Subaru XT MT is a mechanical system, I like that it is 50/50 default, so all wheels are getting power before you slip, in fact that might prevent slipping in the first place. I often don't notice it's icy, until I see people around me slip-sliding away.

    And BTW, the auto Subie XT has a multi-plate clutch just like BMW, and it too is intelligent and pro-active. Default power is 80/20 but if you hit the gas, it'll shift power before you slip. It lacks BMW's traction control to manage both axles, but the rear axle is managed with a viscous LSD.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm curious, has anyone driven both? :o)

    -juice
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    steve - re: post on FX35/FX45. We're all, uh, enthusiastic. ;)
  • overtime1overtime1 Posts: 134
    We don't want anyone who has driven both to mess up this perfectly theoretical discussion ;-). Besides, I might end up liking both cars a lot and then what would I do?!?!??!

    I have sat in an X3 but I have not driven in one...maybe soon.

    overtime
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "We don't want anyone who has driven both to mess up this perfectly theoretical discussion ;-)."

    How about someone who has driven all three?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Even better. I have an Infinit dealer near me, may drop by. I feel bad, though, if I'm not honestly giving it consideration.

    I wish Infiniti had squared off the back, like Renault does with some models. It looks quirky, but I'm function over form, any day.

    As it stands, Murano is more practical for me, but it too has major blind spots. Hey, maybe that's why they offer those rear back up cameras. I don't really have a problems seeing what's behind my Forester.

    -juice
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Even better. I have an Infinit dealer near me, may drop by. I feel bad, though, if I'm not honestly giving it consideration."

    I would feel like I was cheating on my BMW.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    He he, good one.

    Just give her a nice bath (hand wash) when you get back, so she's not jealous.

    I test drive enough that my Forester must have about 100 accessories. :-)

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Posts: 1,760
    but i couldnt. fx45 is a very nice auto. but price variance could not get past my accountant, err, wife.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Posts: 1,760
    the one thing i really like about leasing is having a new car every x years and having it underwarranty. note to missle dude, i bought my fxt thinking that it would be reliable enough and i would drive in until it died with 200,000+ miles on it.
  • petew4petew4 Posts: 71
    yo subie land! I'm new to this board but some of the folks here I know from FX land and from a while back on the Outback VDC boards. I own an FX45 loaded to the gills & have never enjoyed a vehicle more but that is neither here nor there with regard to comparing an FX35 to an XT. I've also owned Subarus - I traded in a 2001 Outback VDC (the top of the line Subie at the time) for my FX & I liked the subie. It performed well off-road and on. The McIntosh stereo is probably the best factory installed unit out there. And it made an honest attempt at breaking into the lower end of the luxury SUV market in many ways. BUT comparing it to the FX is like comparing a tricycle to a mountain bike. I haven't driven the XT & I understand that it is fast but the comparison dies there IMO. Performance in other areas just isn't there like it is in many high-end crossovers (FX, Cayenne, X5, etc.) and not with the aesthetics that these vehicles offer. I just don't see how the XT could be construed to compete in that arena. Subie makes an awesome vehicle but it isn't even in the ballpark with the FX on too many levels to accept it (yet) as a luxury/performance suv. I know it must be fun for you guys to compare your vehicle on a loftier level but comon...get real.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Posts: 1,760
    and decided that it wasnt worth the extra bucks
  • zmanzman Posts: 200
    Luxury: yes, absolutely.
    Performance: only if you're willing to let the car shift gears for you. I guess I'm not. Sorry.

    Zman
  • overtime1overtime1 Posts: 134
    It looks like you might have some make-up reading to do...most of those points have been discussed a few times already without any definitive edge given to the FX in any area except lux and prestige and - to some people - looks (I'd agree...I think the FX looks GREAT).

    BTW, we weren't comparing the XT to a loaded FX45 which might be a little short on speed but offers one heck of a all-around package ;-).

    overtime
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You also miss the small point, that while you believe there is no definite edge in 0-60, there is a definite edge to the entire package, which it makes it worth my (our) whiles.
  • overtime1overtime1 Posts: 134
    No edge 0-60?

    Check this link that I posted before:

    http://members.rogers.com/ajac/results.htm

    Not only is 0-60 substantially faster but the passing test is comically unbalanced:

    XT 0-62mph: 6.7s
    FX45 0-62mph: 7.2s

    XT 80-120kpm: 4.3s
    FX45 80-120kpm: 6.4s

    It looks like they didn't aggressively launch either car in the 0-60 test. Results are for the manual XT. I don't think the AT is much slower for that particular 0-60 test because the 2nd gear in the MT doesn't reach 60mph but it exceeds 60mph in the AT (I just tested that :-) ).

    FWIW, the braking test for both the FX and XT showed similar results. Of course, there is a LOT of room to upgrade the XT's feet.

    overtime
This discussion has been closed.