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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4
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Comments
It'll seem like an overpriced, overweight rocket in reverse when he encounters a Forester XT...
Who wants to listen to Subaru owners justify their insecurities about their choice of ride
A classic case of shoe-on-wrong-foot if ever there was one.
Kyle
-juice
:-)
Sorry, I didn't mean to slight the FX but the BMW and Subaru dealers where I did the driving are only a little over a mile apart. There is no Infiniti dealer in that town.
Maybe in the near future...?
Ed
Steve, Host
Ed
Anyway, the FX is beautiful inside AND out. Much better than a station wagon!
A cynical person would use that statement as evidence that you're insecure because deep down you know that your FX really is nothing more than a tall stylized station wagon.
I don't see the FXers constantly defending and arguing about their choices (How many posts to this thread?).
Said cynic could also argue that most FX owners don't own computers (decorum prevents me from listing possible reasons why).
Good thing I'm not a cynic :-)
-Frank P
Said cynic could also argue that most FX owners don't own computers (decorum prevents me from listing possible reasons why).
no Frank....actually d_in_nj was correct. We spend our forum time on threads that are informative rather than arguing with Subie nuts that wouldn't know a quality vehicle if it ran over them....:-))...hava nice day.
So 'I hate SUVs, Why do You' is an informative thread? ROTFLMAO!
Absolutely! E.g., I learned that Pete is a part time standup comedian! ;-)
tidester, host
lol....you just like me cuz I feed ya KKs.
Subies keep getting taller and have more clearance so that's no longer possible. ;-)
The last Subie wedgy enough for a monster truck to drive over was the SVX.
-juice
1. the Subie salesperson did a great job of earning our business.
2. the fact that BMW owners actually take the time to talk about the Subie XT on this forum got my attention. this is great PR for Subaru.
-Ricky
-Frank P
What color? Tranny? Options?
Join the Subaru Crew threads under Owners Clubs, introduce yourself in Meet the Members.
-juice
Totally agree on previous comment that all three vehicles have their merits.
-juice
http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_cat_mvh- eadrest.jsp
Hope this helps.
Also, nice to hear about the mud flaps working -- I am more concerned about tar from the asphalt than mud.
Ricky
I got a power inverter and usually hook up my laptop w/DVD player. The 15" screen is nice, but...
I have to find a way to hide the wires plus I need headphones for the kids.
I think an integrated setup would be better.
-juice
Maybe prices will come down a bit by the time I buy my next new vehicle.
-juice
-juice
Over in Australia, many of us spend some time considering what to buy.
My wife drives a 3 series, and she is doing a higher mileage than anticipated; so she needs to have a longer life vehicle. We go skiing in Winter, about 6 hours return trip, or 10 hours to the lodge of which we are members. We take my LandCruiser for that, but I am considering another SUV style.
We were very excited about the X3, but then found out that BMW won't sell the 3 litre turbo diesel here, which performs better than the 3 litre six, and costs the same. its especially good on an auto.
My wife drives city traffic, in some hilly areas, and appreciates some get up and go, and an auto because she is in stop start traffic for much of here commuting.
This Saturday we have an invitation for the opening of the X3 into Australia, but I doubt we'll be able to drive it.
The sad thing about the X3 here is the prices. Firstly if one upgrades the 2.5 litre to a leather interior and an auto, there's only $US500 differrence between the 2.5 and the 3 litre. So the 2.5 litre is out, its bad value. But worse is the price: the X3 three litre is 85% more than a leather and sun roofed and side air bagged auto Subaru Forester. The Forester here does not have heated seats on any models, but seems to have most of the other options.
Our Subaru GTs all are two litres. I think the 2.5 engines will replace the 2.0 turbo engines, mainly because the Forester Turbo is the 2.5 litre. So I am cautious about the 2.0 Turbo GT cars. We also don't get the [non-permissible content removed] spec. powered engines, because of our poorer fuel, and some complexities with Australian polution requirements which are not as strick anyway as the US ones. Also we don't have the very high Octane fules which are available in Japan. So our STI and XRXs lack the power of Japan and even the 2.5 litre US.
But the Outback here can be got in a wagen and auto form with the 3 litre six. This costs about $US3,000 more than an equipped Forester, but without the VDC, Sun roof and full leather and curtain air bags. Another $US3000 and one gets those options.
So an Outback VDC wagen fully equipped is still way way cheaper than even a base with leather auto X3 3 litre.
Incidentally a very well equipped "Kluger" Toyota which you have over there under another name, cost about the same as an Outback, but its bigger, has seven seats, and sits higher, about the same height as a Forester. Its got more equipment than a Forester XT, but isn't nearly as quick, but not much slower than an X3.
I've read most of the posts, and I feel the X3 probably out; with a diesel (available in New Zealand) I think I'd have a case for it.
We also have a Ford here, the Territory, which is an excellant vehicle, much like a larger and more efficient X5, developed in Australia, of our Falcon rear drive platform. Its about Forester price, but so far the 4 litre twin cam four valve straight six @182kw is the only engine available (they have not yet mentioned putting in the turbo six, which is faster than the 4 valve 5+ litre American Ford V8).
I had not considered the Forester, but I am now. its got the pace my wife would like, and would cost less than her 325, with good visibility for traffic, and the dogs would go in the back.
But whatever she gets, she'll miss the glory of BMW's steering system, brakes and carved from steel feel. Oh well.
I wonder what people think also of the Toyota (I forget your name for it, its the bigger and cheaper version of the Lexus 330 which we also have), which costs here less than the X3, and seems to me to be better value.
So you in the States who buy X3s, don't feel bad, they cost more in Australia, which is a big 4WD market.
Incidentally, the Forester XT is the lowest depreciating of all new vehicles according to our depreciation "Glasses" guide, maybe because its better value to buy here.
I'd appreciate any comments, and if anybody wants me to, I may post my findings.
Cheers all and appreciate your comments about where the Toyota fits in America.
That would be about 244 hp if I worked it out correctly.
tidester, host
Your Kluger is our Toyota Highlander.
The 2.0l Forester comes with a low range there, right? Cool. So there are trade-offs. Plus that explains why the price difference is bigger.
Try the Outback VDC or even the XT model. You guys get a full size spare, the US doesn't, so maybe we're not the lucky ones! ;-)
-juice
Bob
-Frank
The problem with an auto then is getting down them the hill. What happens with autos, even low range petrol ones like our LandCruiser, is that the brakes do all the work. A low range in a diesel will have the vehicle crawl down, but not many petrols will crawl down unless the gearbox is super low and the engine has strong engine braking characteristics.
Typically in Aus going down a steep track, you follow the wheel tracks, and middle clearance is what stops you (the middle of the vehicle's ground clearance is critical because the tracks are much deeper in the wheel rut areas than the higher often grassy middle of the track).
Incidentally while the Outback has good ground clearance, its not very effective over rocks because its wheelbase is long. Its overhangs are also poor as well, so the Outback is not regarded here as being as Outbackable as a Forester.
Going down hill, rocks in the tracks require some skill. You go down heavily on the brakes all the time. If one leaves the tracks sideways a bit because of climbing a rock, you won't be able to get back onto the wheel track ruts, because the rear wheels will still be in the wheel ruts. This is serious, because one of the front wheels is now off the ruts, which means its likely the vehicle is somewhat sideways. When on is sideways on a steep track, that's when you roll - lengthwise its tough for them to tip over the front! Although in Aus, some short wheelbase vehicles have flipped over backwards going up steep tracks. Toyata have a light LandCruiser here, with a chassis, but they don't sell the short wheelbase version. No doubt they fear in Aus it might flip over lengthwise!
But sideways its much more easy to roll over, especially with high roll centre vehicles (which the Subaru is very much not). Also a shorter wheelbase helps get over any bumps.
For rough stuff, we would take the LandCruiser anyway. Its much more capable off road, and a chassis stops the body getting wrecked, as with a mono chassis like a Subaru etc. every bump into the floor pan affects the whole body in my opinion.
As to the wheels, Subarus here get a fifth wheel that is exactly the same as the road wheels - an alloy one.
But here, one can only get the side air bag if one gets leather and a sun roof. the Subaru passes our safety tests without a side air bag, so for some reason Subaru onlu put it into the luxury ones.
For some reason, such a big hole in the roof concerns me - it must weaken the structure IMO; and if not, there must be quite a weight penalty, in a place that is bad news for handling, as its at the top of a high place.
The Highlander - yes that's the name, Thanks. I like it too. My wife thinks the front is ugly, but otherwise its external styling is great. No four cyclinder here! And no one here knows about an electric hybrid either. The Toyota Prius hybrid doesn't yet sell well here, unlike the States, but who knows if a hybrid came to Aus. I'd imagine it would be great as it would save fuel and provide a different way of achieving all wheel drive. The media here have reported that Toyota subsidises the Prius $US7000 per vehicle here.
We are driving the X3 this weekend it turns out. I think its not worth it here, its probably cheaper here over 4 years to buy a diesel X5, which cost not much more than a leathered X5 3 litre. We'll test the turbo Forester as well, and maybe the Ford and Toyota, if we have time. Just quick spins for a look and feel.
No answers about the Toyota, I guess because its off topic. It seems to be in a different category.
Cheers all.
The 2005 Outback will go from 7.3 in. clearance to 8.5 I hear. With the bumpers raised about an inch. The Highlander is the same platform as the Altima and the RX300/330 and not designed for heavy off-roading. Interesting, if heavy off-roading is important to you, why aren't you looking at truck-based SUVs (body on frame)?
It fits on the MT5 models as well, but doesn't come standard. SoA found it wasn't needed because the towing capacity for the manual is actually greater even without the oil cooler.
2005 US Outbacks have 8.4-8.7" of clearance, very good actually.
The 2004 Forester has 7.5" but better approach/departure angles, like you said. The 2005 model is supposed to get even more clearance but I haven't been able to confirm this yet.
Bob - you said you got a brochure, right? Does it mention that?
Back to the comparisons, BMW invited me to the X3 Ultimate Driving Event, I'm registered for August 6 here in DC. Bob Holland is going with me.
I have a Forester, Bob has an Explorer but a few Subies in his family. We've both driven the Forester XT so perhaps we can do a little compare/contrast after the event.
-juice
Bob
Maybe we should drive the F-XT again just before (or after) the event again, so our comments would be more accurate. I haven't driven the F-XT in over a year, so my recollection isn't fresh. Also, there have been some minor updates on the F-XT since last year.
Bob
Because we already have a truck based frame chassis Toyota vehicle. The attraction of a 4 wheel powered vehicle is for the snow, and the none chassis frame vehicles use much more fuel to get to our snow fields, about 5 hours one way @ 70 MPH.
We have had the new 2005 Subaru Outbacks since last year. Because we are right hand drive, we get the Japanese vehicles earlier than you. Yes the Outback has been raised, despite a lower centre of gravity by lowering the engine. I did not know about the bumper angle change. Nonetheless it is the type of vehicle that would not climb a rock without hitting it. It would be fine for going along wide tracks in open country, because you can steer around rock outcrops on the big tracks (tracks that go to central Australia were aboriginal trading highways and followed water courses in what are deserts). They are quite wide and flat, and dressed with broken up rocks. The Outback would be fine out there. But steep tracks would catch it out, whereas a Forester is much better because of its shorter wheelbase, which is critical in avoiding the centre of the vehicle scraping on a rock which one was to climb over.
For us, both vehicles would be city cars that do quite a few country trips to the snow.
Somehow I think the Outback although more expensive would be a nicer place to be. I imagine it quieter, and its more roomy in the back seat for our 12 year old who will be six foot by the time we change vehicles.
I figure the Forester is better in acceleration, which is a fantastic benefit, and also the Forester sits higher than the Outback, which is more pleasant for the driver in traffic, and safer too. But I worry about the Forester's room for out son, whether it could take three people in the back (my parents) and whether it is a noisy almost harsh environment.
We trialed a WRX before buying the BMW 325, and the WRX was quite a harsh environment. However the only reason we did not by it was because the seats when raised in height did not support the lower back at all - they were extraordinarily uncomfortable. We asked Subaru, and they came back with nothing could be done. We could not even put in the standard car's cheaper seats. We then priced spare parts, as the STI had a bottom seat part that was raisable on the front and back of the seat, which provided support for the lower (small) of one's back. But the parts cost the same as new Recaros, about $US1,000 per seat. Not worth it - 10% of the value of the car in seats was silly.
We later found out that dealers had solved the problem, by putting in an air bladder behind the lining of the seat, with a one way air valve that you hand squeezed until one got the back support. The device cost $US35 per seat!
I can't drive another F-XT. Too tempting!
-juice
She said the X3 had the advantage of being very familiar in its controls (sas she has a current 3 series BMW).
She liked the two tone colour scheme of the BMW, as it had dark colours below elbow height, which was pleasant and clever she thought.
She said all the vehicles she drove were very good which surprised her. She felt the BMW was just not worth it (In Aus. they are quite expensive).
We very much liked the Forester. It offers a great compromise between sitting high and good handling.
It was not noisy. The seats were comfortable. The rear compartment good for our two Jack Russel dogs, although in reality its dark interior would show their cream doggy hair. A black rubber mat would be bought anyway.
Its external appearance compared to most others really poor; it seems that Subaru have just decided to forego style. It gains no emotive points from its body shape. It may be logically justifiable, but it does not capture the heart, like a Rav4 does for instance.
Interestingly, my wife has crossed the Subaru Outbacks off her list. Mostly because from the driver seat, it is low. Because of traffic driving, if she is to have a rear compartment for two dogs or sailing gear, she'd like the lest claustrophic benefits of sitting higher, which the Forester does much better than the Outback.
Also, we found the back (middle compared to 7 seaters) seat in the Forester more comfortable than the Outbacks seats. Firstly the Forester's almost bench seats were higher off the floor, and the Outbacks seats' felt flat and shallow under the bumb. A disappointment for their upper model. Also with three in the back, the middle position was quite hard in the Outback compared to the even comfort bench bottom seat of the Forester.
The Subaru guy said one should spend $US700 on a Japanese wider exhaust system for the Forester, as the [non-permissible content removed] system bolts perfectly in. Its wider diameter lowers back pressure and results in much greater performance for the turbo.
He also said that on has to idle the motor up for a few minutes before driving off in the mornings, and idle the motor down at the end of your journey, to keep the turbo bearings healthy, and also to change to double the factory recommended engine oil change interval, and to use a top synthetic oil. Such care would ensure much longer turbo bearing life.
Stock XTs dyno in at around 240-250 hp, so in the US it's understated. With an ECU reflash, people are getting 260-280hp from a stock motor with no mods, but say bye-bye to your warranty.
-juice
And the Forester interior is two shades as well, and is dark down low. But the X3 is beige up top, and dark grey low; light and airy up top, and servicable down low. The Forester is really two shades of grey, but its still a well built "honest" interior.
I actually don't usually like a beige/gray combination but I'll get to see it up close in August at that event I registered for.
Cheers.
-juice
-Frank
Yes Elissa the "dealer" said to change the oil twice as often as recommended. However in fact, it was the salesperson, who is part time (we tested on the busiest day, as Saturday, so the person who road tested with us was a casual). He also was a hot up guru. He had bought about 10 WRXs and fixed them up and sold them. He now has a new job with one large bank, and he is aware that he hasn't actually made any money fixing up the WRXs: he said that the reality has been he's got some bad cars and then sold them after repair there now being excellant cars, and the owners have got the benefit.
He also said, (and this is a major negative on the XT for those BMW folk who see it as a criticism) he said that one should idle up the motor for a few minutes in the morning, and run it for a few minutes after any trip.
In Australia there were rumours that BMW would introduce turbo sixes. They know how to do it - in fact the 2002 turbo was the first production turbo car. Their turbo diesels are the best car diesel engines in their category. Mercedes supercharges their "chaff cutter" four cylinder engines. I feel if BMW did have a turbo six, they might have a strategy about keeping the bearing oil cool after turning off. But I don't know what they do with their current diesels.
I had a 99 SAAB turbo, the first true production turbo car, one of the first in Australia (mid 1970s). I remember on a night drive with friends, we stopped and I opened the bonnet: the whole of the engine bay was lit up by the glow of the still glowing red turbo charger.
Some vehicles have systems to pump the oil around the turbo bearings after turn off. I presume the Subaru has water cooling over the bearings. But I don't think there is an oil pump that circulates the oil that lubricates the bearings after one turns the engine off.
The Subaru uses an intercooller, which cools the intake air which increases its density and therefore its efficiency, espicially when ambiant temperatures are high. Such cool air would lower turbine temperatures. But the exhaust gas would be as hot as the SAABS, and that does heat up the turbine. I don't know what strategies Subaru uses to keep the turbine cool. Having a cool turbine is not really necessary anyway, except when the engine is turned off. Then the heat from the turbine will transfer to the turbines bearings, and the oil in the bearings will then absorb an awefull lot of heat. This heat breaks down the oil. So hence the turbo expert guy said change the oil twice as often, and run the engine before turbine use and after (in other words, warm the oil up before driving and after driving cool the bearings down by running the oil through the bearings by idling the motor).
I presume the reason why one runs the engine up before driving off is not just to warm up the oil though. If the engine has been switched off straight away, and the bearings have gotten hot from heat transfer from the turbine, the oil around the bearings can get very hot indeed. If this happens, the oil can break down. So if one runs the engine before driving, the turbine itself will not spin at idle. But the oil pump will push the oil around the bearings out. If the oil has broken down due to heat after switch off, any solids in the bearings will be pumped away. So idle it for a few minutes, and when you drive off and the turbo lightly spins, the good oil will be straight into the turbine bearings, and there will be no extra turbine bearing wear.
I would have no problem doing that, but I suspect my wife will not be bothered. I don't know how much it costs to replace the turbine bearings, and I don't know if a bearing failure would damage the turbine. I suspect the turbine would be designed maintain entegrity after a bearing failure. I's also imagine it would be designed to be cheap to replace the bearings. Nonetheless a bearing replacement is something that all turbos aventually have, but it is also something that can be avoided most particularly by idling the motor for a few minutes after use.
-Frank