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Hybrid Honda Accord

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  • Accord EX-V6 Auto: 3,384 lbs
    Accord Hybrid Auto: 3,501 lbs

    HAH is only 117 lbs over Accord EX-V6. Interesting.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    2003 Honda Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 in 7.0 seconds per C&D Oct. 02. It was also rated at 21/30 City/Highway according to the EPA and 34 on the Highway according to CR.

    2005 Honda Accord Hybrid: 0 - 60 in 6.5 seconds w/ 30/37 City/Highway according to the EPA. Who knows what CR will receive?

    ___Now let us wait and see if the price is ridiculous or not?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    That's pretty impressive for a mild hybrid... but it raises a question: How is the electricity generated?

    Since the full hybrid system in Prius uses a constant-recharge strategy, it is no big deal. Having two electric motors and a power-split device means there is always an ample reserve of electricity available.

    IMA only has one electric motor, and it is directly linked to the engine. So the recharging strategy has always been either passive or aggressive. That has meant on rare occasions passive wasn't enough and owners would temporarily lose the electric assist, since aggressive was needed (which hurts MPG, so owners try their best to avoid it).

    If the A/C will be tapping into the battery-pack pack now, those occasions will become far more frequent.

    Is there any information that proves that isn't the case. Could Honda have found a way to recharge at a moderate rate instead? And what about the thermal concerns for keeping the battery-pack cool, especially when it's hot and the A/C is needed? Or will it be that the gasoline engine won't actually be able to remain off for too long?

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,906
    I cannot concieve of a reason to buy a hybrid Accord over the diesel Accord. The diesel Accord easily gets 50 mpg. The difference in emissions is a lot less than many would have you believe when using ULSD. ECD-1 is available in CA with a little effort. The diesel Accord has to be more cost effective with a 35% increase in mileage over the Hybrid. All we have to do is demand that Honda give the US the option. If we follow like sheep and jump on whatever they offer we will get just that. If the people demand better mileage (>50mpg) Honda or one of the other diesel auto manufacturers will offer them. It can be done without the extra baggage required for hybrids. Plus the diesel Accord can run on renewable Biodiesel which the current and projected hybrid cars cannot do.

    http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=234399
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > which the current and projected hybrid cars cannot do.

    Don't be vague.

    There have been several diesel-hybrid prototypes already.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,906
    There have been several diesel-hybrid prototypes already.

    Are any available on the World market? You are correct that a diesel hybrid would be an option to use renewable fuel. That still does not account for the added mechanics and technology required to keep a hybrid moving. I cannot believe that one or two electric motors and an ICE are as trouble free as a simple ICE. I may change my mind as time goes on. We in San Diego are the first to get a hybrid SUV. So not everyone here is as much of a skeptic as I am.
  • "If the A/C will be tapping into the battery-pack pack now, those occasions will become far more frequent.
    Is there any information that proves that isn't the case. Could Honda have found a way to recharge at a moderate rate instead?


    Yes, there is. "Occasionally, the idle stop feature is disabled when driving on a hot day and full air-conditioning power is needed by the hybrid air conditioning system." Above information tell us that there are occasions when HV battery powered A/C isn't enough and ICE has to kick in. We can deduce that if the HV battery does not have enough charge, the ICE will also need to kick in. The design sounded good at first but when analyzed further, the fuel penalty for the worst case is very high.

    When HAH reaches a cruising speed, IMA can recharge battery while VCM runs on 3 cylinders. IMA will also recharge during braking.

    "And what about the thermal concerns for keeping the battery-pack cool, especially when it's hot and the A/C is needed?"

    I'll just quote you the info. "The motor produces 10 percent more horsepower assist (12 kW total) than the Civic Hybrid and 26 percent more supplemental torque (100.4 lb.-ft. total). During regenerative braking when the motor acts as a generator for the IMA's battery pack, the generator also produces 12% percent more kW of power (14 kW total), and in both cases, the motor is more efficient, transferring 97.5 percent (vs. 94.6% in Civic Hybrid) of the available energy in assist mode, and converting 95.2 percent (vs. 93.6%) of renewable kinetic energy into electrical energy in charge mode. In addition, the Accord Hybrid's Nickel Metal-Hydride battery pack and integrated cooling system are more compact, yet more efficient than that in a Civic Hybrid Sedan."

    http://hondanews.com/CatID2128?mid=2004091737214&mime=asc

    "Or will it be that the gasoline engine won't actually be able to remain off for too long?"

    It seems to be the case since the battery capacity is the same as in Civic Hybrid. 144V 6.0Amp equal to 0.9kW. Even Prius' battery is about 50% larger in capacity. Maybe Prius was too far ahead of it's time?

    I am disappointed in the 3rd gen of IMA simply because this hybrid design gets milder and milder. ICE is 15 times more powerful than electric drivetrain! 2nd gen HCH IMA's ICE was 7 times more powerful than it's electric drivetrain.

    In order to gain fuel efficiency, a hybrid design need a more powerful electric drivetrain. The longer a hybrid can stay in electricity, the more gasoline(fuel/oil) it can save. The benchmark was set by the Prius. It had 76hp ICE with 67hp primary electric motor.

    Dennis
  • "When the driver minimizes accelerator input at cruising speed, a number of fuel saving operations begin. First, the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) system can deactivate the engine's rear bank of three cylinders to effectively cut fuel consumption in half.

    As the vehicle begins to slow and the driver applies the brakes, more electricity is created through regenerative braking and the VCM system cuts fuel to the active front bank of three cylinders to further conserve fuel.


    This means that the front bank will wear out more than the rear bank.

    Dennis
  • We in San Diego are the first to get a hybrid SUV."

    Here is an interesting EPA fuel efficiency comparison between a mild and full hybrid.

    Honda Accord Hybrid city/high: 30/37 mpg

    Ford Escape Hybrid city/high: 36/31 mpg
    (EPA number confirmed)
    http://motortrend.com/features/news/raw_112_news040917fordhybrid/

    They both average 33.5 mpg. Since when an SUV achieves the same mpg as honda's family sedan? Full hybrid rocks. Wait until Highlander hybrid and RX400H come out; they will be much better :-D

    Dennis

    P.S: I dont' think I should start HAH vs. FEH board because they are not even in the same class.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    diesel Accord can run on renewable Biodiesel which the current and projected hybrid cars cannot do.
    I couldn't care less about renewable fuel for now. If it happens, we shall see. Let us live in the present and think conservation without too much compromise. Diesel, stinks.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    "They both average 33.5 mpg. Since when an SUV achieve the same mpg as honda's family sedan? Full hybrid rocks. :-D"

    but the accord's accleration is in another league now isn't. and the escape is a small SUV.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    In terms of performance, that full-hybrid will be like a rock compared to the mild hybrid. ;-)
  • "In terms of performance, that full-hybrid will be like a rock compared to the mild hybrid. ;-) "

    Not when RX400H is suppose to get sub-8 seconds for 0-60mph and expecting to get around 34-38mpg.

    Dennis
  • "Accord EX-V6 Auto: 3,384 lbs
    Accord Hybrid Auto: 3,501 lbs"


    BTW, HAH "cheated" because it does not carry a spare tire.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    So, now we need to include a third vehicle to make the point you were trying to earlier? ;-)

    Its amazing how quickly Hybrid threads turn into Toyota's is best thread. Let us leave some for the intended purpose. Okay?
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    wasn't the RX400H hybrid put on hold?
  • "Its amazing how quickly Hybrid threads turn into Toyota's is best thread."

    It's not about Toyota or Honda. I belive that HSD full hybrid design is better than a mild IMA hybrid. What I had also shown in that comparison is that a full hybrid scales better as the vehicles get larger and more powerful.

    I'll be doing the same comparison when Nissan comes out with Altima HSD hybrid and Toyota with Camry HSD hybrid.

    Dennis
  • The Honda Hybrid with the IMA has performance light years better than any current Toyota hybrid.

    This is a thread about the virtues of the HAH. If the sea guy and thre prius^2 have to talk about comparisons then I suggest starting another thread or two.

    Please leave this0 one alone. You are off topic and your comments are not wanted.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    I don't see how your comparison between the accord and escape shows that unless you ignore power/accleration performance. your comments are welcomed.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    This means that the front bank will wear out more than the rear bank

    usbseawolf2000, again and again, your knowledge of HSD impresses me, but your knowledge of Honda Hybrid technology is lacking... Please go research VCM and read your own statement again.

    Yes, Ford Escape get about the same EPA, but it is based on an I4, not a 3.0 V6 like HAH.

    RX400h is still behind the curtain. Why?

    I am not trying to trash Toyota Prius. I personally respect the technology, but that is not my kind of vehicles. I also respect the HAH. Being able to reach 0-60mph in 6.0-6.5sec with 30/37mpg is respectable. I only wish HAH could have come with a stick shift.

    No spare tire? Big deal. I carry repair kit in my BMW 540iA w/o spare tire. That's what some performance-driven people do. Maybe you wouldn't understand. A spare tire would add less than 50lb to the car. The fact that HAHs use 215 instead 205 could have offset that a bit already.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,906
    Let us live in the present and think conservation without too much compromise. Diesel, stinks.

    Biodiesel is the present, and ULSD is available. If you think they both stink your still in the past. Though Biodiesel does have a faint french fry odor from what I am told. And furthermore Honda did what they said they would never do and that is build a diesel engine. They must know something. I will also bet they sell more diesel cars world wide than hybrid.
  • "your knowledge of Honda Hybrid technology is lacking... Please go research VCM and read your own statement again."

    Let's hear it. If you know about VCM, I welcome you to enlight me with this discussion.

    "RX400h is still behind the curtain. Why?"

    Toyota is doing an hornable thing by fulfilling Prius' demand first. Therefore, they delayed hybrid SUVs so they get more time to tune further. Go on to 400h board and you'll find info about 1 million miles drive test. Further discussion about it should be there.

    "No spare tire? Big deal."

    It is not a big deal. That's not the point. What keeps EX-V6 from doing the same to reduce weight. The point was IMA hybrid weight analysis.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    No. They needed diesel to compete in European market. That market, like many other markets in Europe, wants diesel for it being cheap (in some cases, a third of the cost), not just for better fuel economy.

    American market is different. There isn't a difference in cost of diesel to that of gasoline. Here, people want performance and powerful engine. Until now, that wasn't "shown" with hybrid offerings.

    If diesel made sense, automakers would be rushing to capture that market as well. I'm not against diesel, but I like the direction hybrid technology is heading.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    This means that the front bank will wear out more than the rear bank

    Isn't that better than greater wear on BOTH banks? ;-)

    Good engineering covers such aspects in the design. Your worries are unwarranted. Oh, and you could just as well put it like this...
    "one of the two banks will have less wear!"
  • "I don't see how your comparison between the accord and escape shows that unless you ignore power/accleration performance."

    Keep in mind that FEH is mostly based on the classic Prius technology. FEH's electric drivetrain isn't as powerful as it should of been. Just compare FEH's spec against Prius.

    The fact that RX400H is going to use 120kW is in line with it's V6 ICE. 3.3L V6 has 220% higher displacement than Prius' 1.5L. 120kW electric motor is 240% more power than Prius' 50kW. Go to RX400H board for performance, fuel economy, and low emission estimates.

    There won't be a clear comparison with HAH until Altima hybrid and Camry hybrid come out for sure.

    Dennis
  • "one of the two banks will have less wear!"

    You are right. It is the uneven wear that bothers me a bit.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It is the uneven wear that bothers me a bit.

    How? Why?

    I think there are a lot of other things that are bothering you right now than something Honda engineers have to have already covered.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,906
    Go on to 400h board and you'll find info about 1 million miles drive test.

    Dennis,
    You know that has to be hype. It would take over two years at 55 mph 24 hours a day to drive a vehicle 1,000,000 miles. That was hearsay from a Lexus salesman.

    As far as VCM I would think the rings and bearings would show equal wear. What else would wear out. They could rotate the cylinders that get fuel and spark. I imagine Honda has that pretty well tested out.
  • My guess will be that HAH will use the anit-flat tires currently on 05 Odessey -- can still run at 50 miles per hour even when going flat.

    And of course no spare tire will save some space for the battery, and a little weight too.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    This is a thread about the virtues of the HAH.

    I thought this discussion was about the HAH overall--not just its virtues.
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